This is page numbers 24 - 48 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 1st Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was report.

Topics

Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Does this committee wish to deal with the first Minister's statement? I would like instruction before I go any further. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, we would like to deal with Tabled Document 2-12(1) as well as the Beatty report.

Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Does this committee agree that we deal with Ministers' Statement 2-12(1) and Tabled Document 3-12(1) together? Agreed?

Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

We will take a 15 minute break.

---SHORT RECESS

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

December 9th, 1991

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

The committee will come back to order. General comments on Tabled Document 3-12(1) and Ministers' Statement 2-12(1). Member for Thebacha.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The committee is appreciative of the fact that these two documents are placed into committee of the whole for further consideration.

I would like to indicate a couple of concerns with respect to the process that we want to use. First of all, we would like to discuss some of the comments with respect to the Government Leader's statement and, with that, be able to go over the report entitled "Strength at Two Levels" for further consideration if the committee so agrees.

Mr. Chairman, there have been a few concerns on the Government Leader's statement, and I should indicate to committee Members and MLAs that now is the time to bring forth your concerns with respect to the Minister's statement.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Please proceed.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Very quickly, Mr. Chairman, I will advise the government of some of the concerns. The main concern was the fact that there have been priorities set for restructuring government, both moving the POL, to the NWT Power Corporation and consolidating the departments of Health and Social Services, as well as the remaining programs under the Department of Government Services being under the Department of Public Works.

We are not saying as a committee that we disagree with what the government is doing, and we do not want to get involved in the details of government decision-making, but we have concerns with respect to the process of implementation. What we want to know is, where are we allowed to express our views on the "Strength at Two Levels" report to indicate to the government what is acceptable and what is not acceptable with respect to the recommendations to be implemented?

Also, we would like to indicate to the government that with these implementations we would like to see some type of strategy formulated. We recognize the Government Leader's intention is to try to allow us to be involved in the process of recommending forms of action; however, it appears that the opportunity is not there and is not available for the Members. They are somewhat concerned about it.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I would like to leave the opportunity for Members to be able to discuss their concerns with respect to the Minister's statement, "Living Within Our Means," and their concerns with respect to "Strength at Two Levels." Thank you.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Are there any further general comments? Madam Government Leader, do you wish to respond?

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

No, Mr. Chairman. I am prepared to listen to what the concerns are and what the issues are. I just want to say that we have taken the report and certain structural actions to try to put together an implementation team. The implementation team will be structured in some way so that MLAs can be involved on an ongoing basis in what is happening in implementing the "Strength at Two Levels" report.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Todd.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
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John Todd Keewatin Central

I am not sure how committee of the whole works, but my overriding concern is to make sure there is a structure. I do not mean to make it cumbersome for you, but I just want to ensure that the benefits of the implementation of the report do trickle down to the appropriate places whether it is small communities, et cetera. For example, could there be provision in the implementation group for three MLAs to work this thing through or could you have regional representation?

It does not have to get cumbersome. It could be three or four of us on this side. You must be meeting on a regular basis and developing some types of strategies. It seems to me that we are not going to solve all the problems of this report today, and I am certainly not about to try to address it. It has to be addressed over a period of time. If it is going to be addressed over a period of time and have maximum benefit for northern people, then I think there has to be some provision for ongoing input by this side of the House.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Arvaluk.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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James Arvaluk Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have no really big objection to the statement made by the Leader of the government this morning, nor do I have any strong objections to the document, "Strength at Two Levels." I read it through and made a couple of thousand notes. The only general concern I have is that not too long ago the government had a project called "Devolution of the Government." When that happened, the regional groups such as Keewatin Regional Council or divisional boards of education became rather active and strong in the deliberation of that devolution program. We have been seeing in the last few years that the government is again taking back the power from the regional organizations to Yellowknife.

In "Strength at Two Levels," would the communities or community governments in this document, if they are active, become rather strong in the deliberation of their local programs such as housing, social services and health? When things like that become complicated, the leaders become more sophisticated and really work hard at that. I wonder if, in the near future when the government finds out that the communities are becoming too strong, would they not want to take that back again to Yellowknife like they did to the regional organizations? That is the only concern I have. If we implement this in any way, I do not want to turn around and say to my constituents that we have to take it back because they are getting too strong.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Mr. Todd.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
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John Todd Keewatin Central

Perhaps I can approach it in a different way. Today I am not about to suggest to you that we can solve all the problems and say this is good and this is bad within the Beatty report. But there are some obvious things that bounce out at us, that say, "Hey, there is something wrong with this report." How do we find the mechanism where we can contribute to what we feel are some weaknesses within the report?

Let me give you an obvious example, to me anyway, from a regional perspective, bearing in mind there is a need to cut costs, as Mr. Pollard said, and a need to bring departments together and we are all philosophically and very much in agreement. On page 142 of the Appendices it talks about a simple example of health services, and it talks about moving people from the Keewatin to Yellowknife. Maybe this is more cost effective, but I will tell you now, if you went into the Keewatin and tried to sell that, it simply would not sell. There needs to be a mechanism for debate or for input to determine if this is a wise or unwise move.

From a political perspective, if I supported this at this particular juncture, I would, in blunt terms, be -- well it would not be acceptable, let us put it that way. I am just using it as an example because it is just one that jumps out at me. The concern would be, in the Keewatin, that they just want to fill the Yellowknife hospital because it is not full enough. However, I thought we were moving toward the division of the Territories. We have historically dealt with Winnipeg. Have they done a cost analysis of this? Is this the right thing to do? We have linkages; maybe we require our own; maybe we should go to Iqaluit.

I know all these questions are going to be asked on this particular subject, and Mr. Chairman, I am only using it to illustrate a point. There are a number of situations in this report, besides this health issue, that I need to know what mechanism we are going to use, if we are allowed, to negotiate and to ensure that the recommendations and the changes that come about will be, in the eyes of me as an ordinary MLA or this side of the House, in the best interests of the constituents of the North.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Madam Government Leader.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Chairman, the discussion on how we move ahead on community transfers can be brought up in this Legislative Assembly at any time; and as we are moving along, some areas in the report that evidently cannot be implemented will be falling off very quickly. We are setting up a community transfer committee which will be under the direction of Minister Kakfwi, and a process is going to be set up so that everyone knows here the general principles of how we are going to get these discussions going. So we can try to work in a mechanism where the MLAs would be involved.

This has not been written down, but what I had thought was that, particularly when a community came forward and wanted to take over a program or a menu of responsibilities, the MLA that is representing that community should be involved on a continuing basis on that takeover. That falls out right away, and we have not put out our communication package so we do not really know how many people are interested, but we know that some communities will not be interested at all, and some might have more interest than the other.

But certainly in terms of the MLAs, I did anticipate that if there was something happening within their constituency that they would be involved as well as, for example, the mayor. We can try to build up a more immediate input from MLAs on the issues of community transfers. So I will try to work that. We have not finished the mechanism of how we are going to do it. We have just announced it, and we have done some work on it. There is a committee to deal with that, and we certainly can work in more involvement if that is desired. We are open to suggestions on how you feel you want to track that on a day-to-day basis. I realize maybe some of the concerns might be that during the time that we are not meeting as a Legislative Assembly, where questions can be brought forward, that there will be things happening that may not allow you to be involved. So we can set up a mechanism to do that with more involvement, and we are certainly open to suggestions on that.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Zoe.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make some remarks on the government's emphasis on community transfer agreements. The Hon. Stephen Kakfwi early today briefly acknowledged the concern that band councils may have respecting the question of aboriginal self-government and the government's new initiative respecting the Beatty report's recommendation of community transfer agreements. My comments today will revolve around this concern that the Hon. Stephen Kakfwi acknowledged respecting aboriginal self-government and the community transfer agreements.

As the government is aware, the long sought-after constitutional guarantee of the right to aboriginal self-government may be close at hand. The federal government has now stated quite clearly that the entrenchment of the right to aboriginal self-government is being very seriously considered. If this constitutional entrenchment takes place in the near future, it would accomplish two very important objectives that aboriginal people across Canada have been working very hard at. These two objectives are: 1) it would enable aboriginal communities to escape half-political arrangements which have stressed individual rights, welfare and municipal structures; 2) it would expand the powers and authority base traditionally exercised by aboriginal governments and make allowance for new forms of aboriginal government.

My region, the North Slave, recently made a presentation to the NWT Commission for Constitutional Development. Prior to this presentation we held a two-day meeting with leaders from across the North Slave to flesh out an initial position on constitutional and political development. At this meeting, Mr. Chairman, one of our elders, Alex Arrowmaker, pointed out that we already have the institutions for self-government in Tli Cho region. "We do not want anything new," he said. "We want to keep what we have now." In other words, we do not need any new structures imposed on us by a new constitution. What we want is a structure which recognizes our existing institutions as the instrument of self-government.

Aboriginal Self-Government Should Come About Through Negotiation With Federal Government

Mr. Chairman, the people of my region want aboriginal self-government. Our understanding of the government's proposed community transfer agreements is that it will be a delegated form of municipal self-government. The Tli Cho people of my region, North Slave, are simply not prepared to get locked into, at this time, the government's new form of delegated authority in light of the potential constitutional entrenchment of what we believe to be a pre-existing and independent aboriginal right to self-government. In other words, the Tli Cho people do not believe that self-government should be imposed by either the Government of the Northwest Territories, through the community agreements or by the various methods available presently through direct negotiations with the federal government.

What the Tli Cho people are saying in effect, is that if the right to self-government is entrenched in the Canadian constitution, aboriginal people in the Northwest Territories could negotiate directly with the federal government in order to gain and exercise decisive control over, and to redesign where necessary, the activities, institutions, financial arrangements required to meet the challenges of economic development, health, education, social services, resource management and any number of common concerns in their communities and on their land.

The Government of the Northwest Territories approach to community self-government, through the proposed community transfer agreements, seems to be, according to the Tli Cho people of the North Slave region, just a continuation of delegated power from the Government of the Northwest Territories. Although communities will be given the right to decide not to accept a responsibility that the Government of the Northwest Territories is ready to give it, it does not have the fundamental right to decide for itself what responsibilities it wants. That is the right we expect in a constitution for the western Northwest Territories.

We are now engaged in redefining who we are through the commission for constitutional development process, and the government is at the same time attempting to short-circuit this process by introducing a form of self-government at a municipal level that may be totally rejected by aboriginal communities as an acceptable model for community and regional self-government. The status of the government's proposed community transfer agreements should be exactly that, a proposal for discussions within the constitutional development process. It should not be anything more, certainly not a municipal form of self-government that the government is committed to implementing. Mahsi cho.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Government Leader.

Responsibility Given Only If Community Wants It

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

In terms of the aboriginal self-government, when the report was done it was not asked to look at political issues or new political structures such as those that might be contemplated in division or aboriginal self-government. The report was simply asked to look at how great a responsibility for government programs might be placed in the hands of people at the community level, and the community transfer is a means of achieving that.

Now if people do not wish to move ahead, if your group does not wish to move ahead, that is a decision of your communities. We are not here to place before you or shove some responsibilities at a community level if you do not wish to take it. If the communities are offered and they wish not to take part, that is entirely up to them. They may be exploring other things that are far more important or far-reaching and do not wish to participate at this time; that is up to the communities that you represent. I want to make that very clear, that every region may not be the same or that every community may not be the same. We are trying to address the simple issue of the complaints and the concerns that we get from community people in terms of their desires to run their own lives at the community level.

I just want to make sure that you know, if you are placed in the position here before the Legislative Assembly of taking the stand that the people you represent do not wish to take part in this community transfer and wish to wait until some other negotiations go on at a higher level or with the federal government, that is entirely up to the communities you represent. We do not wish to impose upon communities or groups who want to take a political stand in terms of determining a longer-term objective that they do have; however, in many communities, people are saying that they want to take as much of a responsibility as possible. We realize as a government that not everybody, not every community or area, is ready to proceed, and we are willing and quite open to accommodate whether people wish to move faster or slower or not at all.

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Further general comments? Member for Kitikmeot.

Progress Must Be Slower In The Kitikmeot

Ministers' Statement 2-12(1): And Tabled Document 3-12(1)
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Ernie Bernhardt Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To this report, "Strength at Two Levels". The region that I represent, the Kitikmeot, is new to this sort of ball game. We are what you would call different from the Dene people because just recently we moved from isolation to a community called Coppermine, and Bernard Harbour went dead; Reid Island went dead; so everyone moved to Coppermine. I would like to see this document go at a slower pace for us people who are new to the idea of self-government, because if we rush with this program, half the people will not understand what self-government is. How can we tackle issues -- with a birthrate higher than the rest of Canada -- if we are unable to sustain a livelihood for our younger people, our children who are growing up? And most important, if we are unable to deliver good services such as education at the post secondary level, matriculated students who will be well-schooled in the field of professionalism such as doctors, lawyers, town planners -- for me, this is the only solution, to realize self-government will become a reality sooner or later. I would like to see it come when I am still alive. I would like this government to take its time on it and not rush through it because we are looking at all kinds of situations, all kinds of dilemmas.

Canada is confused about the killing of Meech Lake, division, the Polar Commission and who knows what other commissions there will be. It is going to be very complicated to understand which way we are going. But I realize we have to work on this sort of government. I think it is a very good, positive way of bringing our people to govern their own concerns, to make their own decisions at the local level and not be too far removed nor to be dependent on bureaucrat positions to make our decisions which will affect us in the end. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.