This is page numbers 181 - 210 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 1st Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was social.

Topics

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was able to spend some time with the mover of the motion with respect to the concerns I had with regard to the motion in totality. I have indicated that I basically support the concept and the intent of the motion, but as I have stated to the mover, I have problems with his discussion on the motion once it was moved and ready for debate. I want to indicate to this House the types of concerns I have with respect to this motion.

A special committee on health and social services can no doubt be used to assist Members to determine how we can be able to approach the concerns that relate to social services and health in the Territories. I have always said two things that are major stumbling blocks in being able to address social issues accordingly.

First of all, the main concern I want to bring forth to Members' attention is with respect to the social fabric that we have in our societies. We have to ask ourselves what is acceptable in society. What does society allow to be acceptable that we feel may cause social problems? I know that there are many communities in the North that do not look at incest, for example, being a major problem. It has not been until the past four or five years that this government really looked at the problem of child sexual abuse and decided to deal with it. The same with family violence. Ten years ago, people could not even speak of spouses being beaten up. That was something you simply did not talk about because it was not acceptable to society to beat up your wife, but society did not really openly object to it either. As a result, you had these types of social problems hidden away for years. It has not been until the past 10 years that our government has decided to deal with these social issues.

I know that four or five years ago, the Department of Social Services did not even have funding to deal with suicide because of the fact that they knew it was a problem, but they did not realize how bad it was until it started coming to the forefront of this Assembly.

This is where I have stated in caucus that until we can determine what is acceptable to society and what society will accept, that will allow them to determine what type of social problems there are. It is difficult for us as a Legislature to be able to say family violence is a social problem, child abuse is a social problem, child sexual abuse is a social problem and incest is a social problem. It is difficult for us to be able to determine what society wants to be their social problems.

The other fundamental problem is which society is willing to deal with these problems because there are many societies in the North that just do not want to deal with them, period. Even as a Legislative Assembly it was not until last week that we said we will not allow any more liquor to be given at government functions. It was an acceptable thing to us. That is a social problem. Alcohol is one of the major social problems in our society today. You may feel alcohol is a social problem; let me tell you particularly to Members of the Eastern Arctic, that I am horrified to think of how solvent abuse is going to be a social problem to many of your youth in the years to come. Substance abuse of all forms is going to be a social problem to all youth across the Territories. How are we going to want to deal with this?

The point I want to make is that we can set up a special committee to deal with social problems, but at the same time we have to stress that communities are going to have to want to take hold of these problems and deal with them with the assistance of the government. That they, too, are going to say they do not want incest in their communities any more; they do not want family violence in our communities any more; they do not want child sexual abuse in our communities any more. This type of thing is not allowed in our communities. They are going to have to show leadership and want to deal with it. We can set up any type of committee to want to deal with this, but if society does not want to deal with it, there is no point in even trying to address it.

Legislation Inadequate For The North

The other issue that I also wanted to bring up, Mr. Chairman, is our legislation -- particularly with the Department of Social Services because I am more knowledgeable in that area, and I do not know about the legislation with respect to health -- and probably most government legislation this government has accepted, has been legislation that is probably duplicated from the South. Of course it does not meet our needs in the North. That has caused many problems in the North. When you look at the Child Welfare Act, it is so archaic and is causing many of the problems with respect to child welfare. Until we can get the act updated to meet the needs of the North, we are still going to continue to have the problems with respect to children being sent south to homes and their families may not even know where they will be later on. This type of baby shopping from some parts of the Territories is sort of an acceptable thing. I have always said that legislation with respect to our acts to deal with some of our problems has to be looked at.

I know this motion identifies that. For that reason, I certainly support the concept of a committee, but I do not support the concept and the formulation of a committee to go out and see what social problems there are. Twenty-four of us can sit around this room and list all the social problems, and I bet we will come up with the same problems that we have right across the Territories. I do not agree, Mr. Chairman, with the concept of a committee going all over the Territories from community to community like the standing committee on the northern economy or the special committee on education. Our education system is worse now than it used to be. I am almost sure of it. I do not agree with the housing committee that went all over the North.

I think what has to be done is part of the reasons why these are problems and how to address them in being to do program delivery has to be looked at by this committee. I certainly want to make it perfectly clear that there is no doubt that I support the concept of this committee to be developed and formulated and to address these issues, but at the same time I do not appreciate any more funding dollars to be travelling all over the North to find out what the problems are.

The other concern I have, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that when the mover spoke on the motion -- and I had indicated to the mover that I did not appreciate the perception of social services being totally dumped on -- because that was my perception and understanding when he spoke on the motion. I took exception to that. At the same time when we spoke he basically indicated that he would clarify it.

I am concerned with respect to the health transfer, and this is why this committee is to also look at issues of health. I am concerned at the fact that the federal government is trying to shy away from their responsibilities and offload the cost to this government for Inuit and Treaty people, saying that we should absorb the cost of health, and I believe that is probably one of the reasons that we are in a deficit today, because we are basically told that we have to pay for expenses that were given as a right -- and I am going to state that, it was a right, not as a privilege.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Excuse me, Member for Thebacha, your time is up.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask for the committee's consent to continue with my general comments.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, I wanted to state that probably the majority of our deficit is going to be determined on whether or not this offloading from the federal government is going to have to be absorbed by the territorial government. If we have to absorb it, we are going to be quite surprised as to the amount of the deficit we will be in. At the same time, since we have transferred over health, there have been many concerns with respect to regional health boards. They have been wrestling with the government saying, "Who has the responsibility to deliver health?" The regional health boards basically say, "We have the responsibility to deliver health." The Department of Health states, "We give you the money to deliver health, but at the same time you should be able to exercise your authority and responsibility providing you stay within our guidelines." At the same time we are telling them that we want to devolve all this responsibility to the communities, but we put such rigid guidelines on them that it is difficult for them to exercise their authority accordingly. That is a problem that has to be identified with the special committee, the clarity of lines of authority and responsibilities. I think that is one key area, and I indicated that to the mover that that has to be stressed.

I do want to advise Members that it is not my intent to vote against the formulation of a special committee on health and social services. There are major concerns that have to be looked at, and I do not think it is fair that we should expect one Minister to be able to address all those concerns, and I do not think the Minister should look at this as an area of non-confidence in his abilities to do his job. He should welcome it, that we are trying to assist him to be able to do his job a lot easier. With that, Mr. Chairman, I would like to conclude my remarks and just basically indicate to this House clarification on some of the concerns that I have had with respect to the mover of the motion, on some of the comments he made particularly with respect to the Department of Social Services and the formulation of this special committee on health and social services. Thank you.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Patterson.

Problems With The Terms Of Reference

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I do appreciate the chance to discuss this in committee of the whole. Unfortunately, because of other business in this session and perhaps my own negligence, I did not have a chance to talk to the honourable Member who moved this motion, and I generally feel that when a major initiative of this kind comes forward -- previous Houses did initiatives on education, on housing and on the special economy -- it is very important for a Member making such an initiative to try to consult fully with all Members to make sure that such an important thrust is supported by everyone and understood by everyone. I am afraid I am going to have to make my criticisms of his motion here in committee of the whole.

I do want to agree with the Member for Thebacha that obviously these are important issues. I just spent my reply to the Commissioner's Opening Address talking about social issues. They are important and we need to pay attention to them, and I do not disagree in principle with the establishment of a committee, but I must say, Mr. Chairman, with the greatest of respect to the honourable Member for Inuvik, this motion and terms of reference look like they have been drafted by a bureaucrat. It is all about service delivery, policy, legislation, administrative organization and departmental infrastructure, and I feel that the terms of reference are very narrow.

From reading this motion for the establishment of the committee, it looks to me as if the terms of reference assume that all the solutions to our social and health issues lie within government; that if we tinker with the policy, the establishment, change dotted lines to solid lines and change the organization, that somehow things are going to get better. There is talk in the motion of public consultation. I frankly do not think that very many members of the public are going to comment on issues that seem to be repeated in the terms of reference and in the preamble, which keeps talking about things like service delivery models.

Mr. Chairman, I am not saying that these things should not be addressed, nor that they do not need attention, but I find the whole thrust of the motion to be focused on government, on organization and therefore very narrow, and I think I agree with the honourable Member for Thebacha that there are some very fundamental community issues that have to be addressed as well if we are really going to make a difference on these grievous social problems. I agree that we do not need to spend a lot of money finding out what those problems are, but I do believe that in addition to talking about things like infrastructure, service delivery models and the bureaucratic jargon that is replete in this motion, I think we need to talk about fundamental issues with the public such as the responsibilities of parents, the roles of parents, the roles of communities in looking after themselves, and I do not see that in this motion. To me it is all about policy, legislation, organization, and I find the terms of reference incomplete and for such an important initiative.

I would respectfully suggest to the honourable Member that he take note of the comments made today, take a little more time to solicit support from Members and give us time to talk with our constituents over the holidays. I would very much like to get input from the social agencies in my community and the socially concerned persons, about how they would like to see us tackle problems of addiction, family violence, sexual abuse, that we all know exist. But I think the honourable Member for Inuvik could benefit and make this a more complete, more supported initiative, if he gave us a little more time to have input. So I would be interested in his responses and perhaps he could persuade me that he had these other issues in mind.

I will say again, the thing looks like a government review. It looks like something that could be done by a government department or a management consultant -- the way the terms of reference are drawn. It does not seem to emphasize the human, political, basic, fundamental family problems that we all know about. It is all oriented toward the government reorganizing the government. And that, Mr. Chairman, is not going to be the only solution. It may be part of it, but we have to, as Mrs. Marie-Jewell said, we have to start coping with how we change attitudes in communities, how we get people taking more responsibility for their lives, how we encourage people to discharge their responsibilities as parents.

So I find the terms of reference quite incomplete. They are very important. I hope no honourable Members would say that we should have a committee so we will just go ahead with terms of reference that may not be perfect. I would rather see us agree in principle today and say we are going to establish a committee, but get the terms of reference properly done. I will say again, I would like to have some input from my constituents before I finalize this thing. The deadline is September 30, 1993, I am told we do not have much money to spend on a committee before the end of the fiscal year anyway. Why do we not take the time to consult our constituencies, come back in February, get terms of reference that are real and responsive to the views of all Members and do it properly. Thank you.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Member for Baffin Central.

Education Plans Major Role In Social Problems

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will be supporting this motion. I think it would be better to go to our communities as to how we would like to see the social services programs being delivered. There are other issues like sexual abuse and alcohol abuse, but everything is concentrated in headquarters and very little in the communities in terms of counselling. I think that is where we should start, providing proper counselling for sexual abuse victims and incest and family problems, because if we do not deal with that there is going to continue to be an alcohol problem. Alcohol problem is only a symptom of another sickness. If we do not provide any type of counselling services for the communities, we will continue to have problems across the North with alcohol, drugs and substance abuse.

Education should play a role in this as well. There are a lot of parents who do care about their children and the type of education that they are receiving, because they are unilingual they are not able to help, it is almost like being handicapped. It is not that they do not care what their children do in school. A lot of times they are not able to help because they do not have the formal education. They cannot help with their home studies. Or if the child cannot solve a problem with their homework, they are not equipped to help. It is an intertwined problem with not only social services or health, but it is combined with housing as it says in the motion, and education has to do with it also.

We continue to see educators in the communities who can only spend time from 9:00 in the morning to 5:00 in the afternoon with a very impersonal attitude a lot of times. Occasionally, we are very lucky to get an educator who truly cares about the children and the type of help the children do not receive at home. These educators realize that the parents cannot help. There are some teachers who volunteer their time for study periods and make themselves available to children who need help with school. But not all teachers are like that. It is a big issue which I think has to be dealt with, and it has to start in the community. If we bring it out to the community, maybe we will get some parents motivated in solving some of the problems we are facing now. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Fred Koe Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make a few comments in response to the honourable Member for Iqaluit when he said he was not consulted and that he would like to go home and consult. If I read the reports and heard the reports properly during the election and prior to the election, this was an issue in just about everyone's campaign. It was an issue throughout the Territories during the election. I think it was the Member himself who expressed the loudest concerns about a particular department -- the Department of Social Services. It was the Member himself who expressed very sincere interest in becoming the Minister of that very department so that he could fix up those concerns. It was mentioned I did not consult him. I did consult through the caucus we had with all the Members that were there. I talked about this issue which was an item of debate in our caucus. I did mention at that time that I will be bringing something forward to this Assembly and I gave proper notice on Monday that this motion will be coming up. The Member had a week

and a half, similar to all other Members, to talk to me on this issue.

So I do not think that statement is fair, but I do not think it was up to me to go to each individual Member. I went to as many as I could and talked to as many as I could. The ones who were interested came to me and we talked. These are just some comments in rebuttal to the Minister in terms of what is in the terms of reference. I am sure the Member knows my prior history so there may be a slight slant of some bureaucracy. I spent 21 years in there. Maybe my writing is not perfect, but I try. I tried to express and develop some vision. It has been cited and stated a couple of times already. We know what the problems are out there. Dennis, I think your community is one that has been through this. You already have a community that is looking after some aspects of program delivery.

The other reason both departments are in there is that it is a major focus of the Beatty Report. This government has already announced that it intends to amalgamate both departments. So therefore I included, and it was expressed by several Members to do this, to include both because they are related issues. So this is why the terms of reference are drafted in the manner they are. There is one word, that I think stands out in the terms of reference and it is "philosophies," philosophies of the Government of the Northwest Territories, and if you broaden that it should hopefully give us some forward thinking and maybe develop some vision. Thank you.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. General comments. Are there any further general comments? Mr. Ningark.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This has been a problem in the large communities and it clearly shows. For a long time, a fairly long time, as we know it has been like that. When we started going to the different communities, when we started gathering in each of the communities from the camps, it was not much of a problem when we are gathered around in the camps, but we had talked about it and thought about how we could further improve it, but it does not seem to be improving at all. It has been talked about by a lot of people about how they could improve it. It feels like it is going to improve slowly but those social workers in the smaller communities especially, I think that if they had better or further education it would help more to resolve these problems and these social workers who have not had enough education to do their jobs, although they are literate in English. When they have husbands and wives they know how to counsel children. I do not think that they have formal education with counselling with these sorts of problems. Without the formal education, I think that this is why social workers in the different regional offices, if these programs of training are delivered to these regions, it would be better.

In Pelly Bay there is a special committee from the territorial government, Mr. Chairman, one person came into the community only once from the housing association committee. I know that in the other communities, in the other hamlets there are committees, as we are called committees in these communities. As a committee in a community we do not have much power to try and fix these kinds of things.

I have worked for the municipality of Pelly Bay for some 16 or 17 years, and prior to working for the municipality of Pelly Bay I was one of those people that goes out camping, spring, summer and in the fall, Having been out on the land for a number of years, I find that there were almost no social problems in the small communities.

In and around 1950 people from the outlying camps were told that there would be social programs available within a prescribed community, social programs such as housing, roads, government offices and social welfare. After five or six years, we realized that putting people together or cramping people together into one small community was not a good solution. But this is something that we all know we will have to live with.

Forming different committees is not a solution to our problem. We have tried that at the community level in Pelly Bay. I think we have about seven or eight committees within this community which has a population of 400 people. I agree with the mover. We should do something about decreasing the social problems we are faced with within the Territories. I agree with the Member that we have to do something about this problem. Knowing that we are going through extreme restraint within the system, I think this would put more financial burden on this government. I am not against the Member's motion, but since we have a new Minister of Social Services, maybe we should give him a little more time to see if he can deal with the problem. I think there are other alternatives to solving the problem. I do not know what the alternatives are, but I think we should give the Minister a little more time to see if he can turn things around for the better. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. General comments. The Member for Kivallivik.

Inuit Solutions To Problems Will Have To Be Looked At

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Listening to the comments that are being made, I cannot just sit back and say nothing. In the communities with social problems, the social workers have a lot of work to do. We see them in every community. I think of all the programs that the government offers, this is one of the hardest issues to deal with because they affect the minds of human beings. What the social workers say is everyone is aware in the communities. I do not agree that it will only affect certain communities. For example, in the Baffin Region, Keewatin Region or Kitikmeot Region, I am sure there will be some communities that will not be involved because all the communities are different. Problems will be encountered in the communities. I am sure a lot of the communities that would have comments to make on how they used to handle problems, and I am sure that will be brought up in some communities -- how the Inuit used to handle problems. The Inuit had their own way of solving different social problems, and I am sure those will have to be looked at again.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. General comments. Member for Kitikmeot.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Ernie Bernhardt Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be supporting the motion to have a review on health and social services within the Territories. The reason I will be supporting the motion is that in the bureaucracy at the headquarters, regional and community levels there seems to be an attitude problem by people who have positions of authority, and this has a ripple effect down to the social workers. Like it or not,

attitudes change because, in essence, you control your clients, you control what they do, you control them as to even when to say you have to come to the office at a certain hour, like 3:00 p.m. or 9:30 in the morning. Like it not, the clients have to go there and be present. A lot of these attitudes have to change.

The values and beliefs of the non-native social workers are not in line with our values and beliefs as native people. I think that equality has to be looked at, treating everybody as human beings, not as a number when you come to the office. During my campaign in Coppermine and Cambridge Bay, many of the clients had indicated that they were not satisfied with the services that are being provided by the social workers. I was a social worker at one time and I enjoyed what I was doing until I got burned out. You have to be almost a super-human being to be a social worker because everything is dumped on your lap on a daily basis. You figure you can have a night off with your family and the next thing you know somebody knocks on your door with a problem and you have to act on it right away. You are there to serve the people. Many times there are people in there who are very insensitive to helping people the way they should.

As Ms. Mike said, I think it is intertwined with education. But when you really have total control about one way of living, that person in the end is not going to have any self-esteem. Their programs are not in place to get our people off their seats. There is nothing in them to be really independent. Many years ago everybody went on the land hunting and trapping and we had our own independence, we were independent from the government structure. But since the government has come into existence in the NWT everybody moved to all the large settlements and that in itself took away the independence of being happily involved, rearing your children the way you are supposed to. But now we are unable to do that because there are not enough jobs for the whole community.

Aftercare Is Important

It is going to take an extra department or something to realize we have a major problem. We talk about development, we talk about many things, but the minute we speak about social problems in the NWT, we have a tendency to chuck it because it costs too much money to make a study. But if we put a good study together that is made by this House or by an independent group of people, I think solutions will fall into place so that we can resolve these problems. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Lewis.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

December 17th, 1991

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Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Mr. Chairman, there is always a dilemma when you are faced with a motion like this because everyone recognizes this is a major problem for us and it seems to be problem that gets bigger and bigger all the time. When I decided to run again in this last election, I put together a pamphlet which had the things in it which I thought were important and that we should get on with. One of the items I put in there was a complete review of our social system, an examination of social issues. Once you get elected on a basis of a platform of what you believe in, you cannot just conveniently throw it aside and say, "Well that got me elected, it does not matter now." That is not the way you can behave in public life. So although I recognize that we do have financial problems and although we do have a new cabinet and a new government, I have to keep my word, that if you say that is what you are going to do, then you have to proceed with it.

However, what I would like to also recall to Members is that when we were in this chamber discussing who should be in the cabinet and so on, I did make the comment that recognizing that we had a very serious financial climate in which we were operating. Since we had three major studies, if you like, one on education, one on housing and one on the economy, then perhaps if we do something on social issues we could perhaps deal with it in a different way to what we have done in the past. Not simply to say it is less than an important issue but we should do something about it and should examine it and maybe we can do it in a way that is different to what we have done before and perhaps also, Mr. Chairman, we can do it, you know, on a different scale. In other words, you have got to be able to do the work that you are charged with, within your means and perhaps we can look at just a new way of looking at social issues, and the terms of reference, in fact, provides us with a tremendous amount of flexibility as to how we go about it.

But I certainly do not believe in supporting this motion than committing myself to a road show, where we go to every single place and we really, really put on a cadillac performance. I think that we can do a very good job on the basis of knowledge that we got and try to get a think tank, if you like, together to see if we cannot come up with something that gives us some direction.

I am also encouraged by the fact that one of the things that did come out of the last committee that we put together, which was the one on the economy, is very much reflected in the Beatty report. I was impressed by the fact that many of the things that we looked at in giving people more control over the things that mattered to them, in looking at structural problems, looking at things like dependency, just taking a different vision, if you like as to how we should advance our economy, that we should not be just simply going over the same round you know, with the same kind of tools.

So this may give us an opportunity to examine social and health issues but just maybe do it in a different way to what we have done before. But I am committed to deal with it and I support the motion, when that motion in fact is in front of us to vote on it. I am not sure what that procedure will be. Thank you.

Good Government Is Not Always Cheap

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. General comments. Member for Mackenzie Delta.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is interesting to note that some of the arguments that have been made -- I do not think that there is any sane, knowledgeable person in this Assembly that could or would want to give the impression that the intention of a special committee dealing with health and social issues is going to be a cadillac committee. The fact is that the financial circumstances do not allow us to become a cadillac committee. At the same time we all have

to appreciate, I believe, the serious problems that we have generally in our communities in these two areas.

I think that one of the problems that we have had for many years is that we have not sought the advice or at least listened to the people when they have given us, what I consider, good advice as to how we could deal with social issues. I think that our own attempts previously, in establishing special committees, have always been immediately after elections. The special committee on education was formed in our first session, the special committee on housing was formed in our first session, so there is nothing magic about the idea of allowing a new Minister to get to know his department and not at the same time establish a special committee to go and seek other advice as to how and what solutions those people might give in helping that new Minister in future, and our government in future, address some of the more serious social problems that we have.

Maybe if the government would have listened to me the first time when we talked about the transfer for health, maybe we would not have the $31 million deficit that we have now. But I think I was not trying at that time to stop the idea of taking on more responsibilities, but clearly indicating that I was not happy with the agreement as it was. I think sometimes you have to say, "I told you so." Maybe this is the only opportunity I will give. Maybe I will get more when we deal with Health.

In terms of dealing with not only dealing with the social problems, but I think there is a real need for us to address the health matters. I think that a great deal of some of the social problems that we have cause us significant expenditures on the health side and I think that it would be in our interest to review how all the social problems that we are encountering, the social issues that we have to address, interrelate to a point where the problems we are encountering in every one, result in failure in other areas. I just want to tell you that I am prepared to support the motion.

I know there is a suggestion that is being made not to proceed with the terms of reference at this time. My only concern with that is that we are establishing a committee generally with no direction and if the attempt is to remove the terms of reference and say we will talk about it at a later time, then what is the purpose of setting up a special committee at this time with no terms of reference. That is my only concern. I think if the attempt is that yes we agree to establish the committee, lay that out and agree to that fundamental principle and agree then to seek the advice and input and the agreement of all Members that we will agree to establish, along with the financing, that issue. I have no problem with that. But I really believe that the principle of establishing the special committee has to be agreed to now and then we can work on the other issues. But I think that that is important. And whatever happens between now and the next session is something we can deal with. But it must be established.

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The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Fred Koe Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would just like to make one comment in response to the honourable Member for Natilikmiot, where he stated that we should give the new Minister a chance to look at his department, but during question period I asked the Minister whether or not he was going to review his department. He stated a categorically "no" as his response.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a few comments on some of the comments that have been made. I think the focus of my motion and proposal is that a review take place looking at all health and social services issues. In terms of health, we have had a health transfer and need to know the effect especially on aboriginal and treaty people. We have to know if the level of service is adequate. Are the health and hospital boards functioning properly? Are the regional hospital boards functioning properly. We have to look at the long-term care programs. We have to look at mental illness. I would like to quote the statement made by Ethel Blondin in the House of Commons. I quote, "Mental illness affects more Canadians than any other disease. The northern Territories lead the nation in illness and poor health. The North experiences higher death and disease rates, and higher birth and infant mortality rates than the rest of the country. Cancer is four times greater. It has the highest rate of suicide in the country."

Fifty Per Cent Of Government Budget Is Because Of The Plight Of Aboriginal People

Mr. Chairman, I have also estimated -- and this is very rough -- that 40 to 50 per cent of this government's budget and quite a substantial number of employees and buildings are in place because of the poverty and the plight of aboriginal people. All government departments are included. We have to look at some of the programs: our correctional centres, our legal aid program, our parole system, all the alcohol and drug programs in all our centres, the hospitals, public health centres, et cetera. You have to look at the level of transmittable diseases. Look at our homeless people. Look at all the social counselling groups, all the help groups, all the associations created to help these poor people. If the government had implemented a lot of the recommendations in the past studies and reports, I do not think we would be in this mess.

Another thing is I do not foresee a travelling road show. In my statement earlier, I mentioned that the MLAs which I have consulted have expressed an interest and willingness to participate and contribute to do their part in their constituencies in their regions.

I think we want to focus on solutions. I mentioned that the majority of us know what the problems are. The people know what the problems are. We have to focus on solutions. The reason I would like to get this motion passed today is that I think in the next three months we can do a lot of the ground work in setting up a strategy and how to proceed. I do not believe we start formal work until the new year when the budget is in place. I am sure if all the MLAs are committed, including Executive Committee Members, I think they will realize the situation and support this motion.

Motion To Adopt Motion 40-12(1)

Mr. Chairman, I would like to move that Motion 40-12(1), titled Establishment of the Special Committee on Health and Social Services, be adopted.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
Item 17: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair James Arvaluk

The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Patterson.

Motion 40-12(1): Establishment Of The Special Committee On Health And Social Services
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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Chairman, I move an amendment that would delete all the words following the word "established" in the "now therefore" clause.