This is page numbers 255 - 277 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 2nd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was housing.

Topics

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 268

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Mr. Gargan.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 268

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Is the Minister suggesting that we are not going to have the special projects program this year until the review occurs?

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 268

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Mr. Minister.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 268

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

No. It will be in place this year.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 268

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

General comments. Mr. Arvaluk.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 268

James Arvaluk Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The present criteria used to award HAP units do not reflect the reality of the North. For example, if a couple are both working and making a little bit over the limit for qualification, they do not qualify. In most of the Eastern Arctic there are no real property communities, so the banks are reluctant to mortgage a private housing development because there is no real property. It is usually the persons who are not from the North who have qualifications to get into government housing, buy the government housing, and they also have qualification to get HAP units. whereas the long-time members of the community -- and if a wife and husband were both working, they do not qualify because they have to go by combined income.

Motion To Review Criteria Used For Awarding HAP Units, Carried

I move that the committee recommends to the NWT Housing Corporation that they review the present criteria used to award HAP units to ensure that it meets the needs of all residents; and further, that upon completion of this review, that the policy and any recommended amendments be brought before the Legislative Assembly for consideration.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 268

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. The motion is in order and is being circulated. To the motion. Mr. Arvaluk.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

March 3rd, 1992

Page 268

James Arvaluk Aivilik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This motion is rather straightforward. It is simply trying to say that the present criteria exclude some of the people who should be eligible; people who were born in the North and have lived in the North all their lives. It is unfair. It is usually the wife who is the victim, because the wife has to quit working in order for them to be eligible for the HAP units.

Another thing that happens in the communities is that some of the government employees who have HAP units sell their units back to the government or a private buyer when they decide to go back south, and they sell it for the real property value. This is the unit that has been provided for by public funds. It should not be used for profit-making purposes. We recommend to the government that they review that present criteria. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 268

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. To the motion.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 268

An Hon. Member

Question.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 268

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

General comments. Mr. Pudlat.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 268

Kenoayoak Pudlat Baffin South

(Translation) Mr. Chairman, to the motion. I would like to say a few words on the motion. I will make it brief. It is difficult for people in the North to apply for this program. There is money available to renovate the houses that were built in the North in 1962, in those days. However, there are more people who are applying under this program. Although these houses are inadequate, we are living in them because of the housing shortage. I realize that the funding is becoming less and less, especially for the capital projects; however, the HAP houses that were built in 1962, in my opinion, have to be replaced. We are not able to replace these houses because of the lack of funding.

This is probably not the appropriate time to say this, but the other thing that we have to consider is the homeless people in the North. There are more and more homeless people. Our climate is cold. I never want to see anyone staying outside during these conditions. I think we have to work together toward solving this problem, and there should be a place for the homeless people. These people have to sleep outdoors wherever they can find a place. We should not have to see people sleep outside. I would like to say this as a general comment before we proceed into the details. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 268

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister, do you have any general comments? General comments. Mr. Koe.

Public Housing Rental Rate Structure
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 269

Fred Koe Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to express some of my thoughts regarding the Housing Corporation, and I will talk in four areas. The first one is in public housing. A lot of the concerns that I have been hearing about in my constituency with regard to public housing -- the main one has to do with the rental rate structure. I understand that the corporation did a review a year and a half to two years ago, across the Territories, to review rental rates. At the time they were supposed to establish these new policies, but nothing happened. My concern is that currently the methods of calculation of income to determine the rental rates vary, and there is a need to equate them across the Territories and by region. That is one area.

The other area is, the current standard is 25 per cent of income, and whatever is defined as income comes under this calculation. In the Delta and Beaufort area it has been a big trend for people to work with tourists -- as guides, daytime operators, to tell stories or whatever -- and a lot of this is cash income. When more people come they get more cash, but people have a tendency to shy away because the more cash they get the more rent they pay. I am just curious as to where you are with that review. Is there another one pending, or are we going to incorporate that with the one that was done?

Public Housing Rental Rate Structure
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 269

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Morin.

Public Housing Rental Rate Structure
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 269

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I remember that review because I was here as an ordinary Member at that time. That review was not accepted at that time by the Assembly, I believe. The thing is that it is done, and it is going to go to cabinet. We cannot look at it only as a rental review of the public housing. We are going to have these other programs developed. For instance, my understanding is that one portion of the review is that the higher your income the more rent you will pay. There is a certain level where you start paying more rent, and the justification of that was to encourage people with a higher income to get out of social housing and get into their own homes. But if we do not have programs developed where they can get into their own homes, then it is not a very good thing to do.

I believe you have to have the programs developed so that we can get people into their own homes. Home-ownership is the priority of this Housing Corporation; the home-ownership program is supposed to be the top priority. We have to encourage people to get into their own homes. Right now, the higher income -- for example, if you give them a HAP house, even under the existing program, that is about $100,000. If you leave them in public housing you end up subsidizing them to the tune of about $800,000, because of the cost of that unit. So it is better to get them into home-ownership. But it should be done at the same time as the rest.

Public Housing Rental Rate Structure
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 269

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Safety In Design Of Public Housing Units

Public Housing Rental Rate Structure
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 269

Fred Koe Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The next area of concern deals with safety in the design of public housing units. In Inuvik, this past year, there have been some major disasters and a lot of the concern, at the time, has to do with the perceived safety aspects of the units. A lot of the houses are two-storey houses with a stairwell and a furnace under the stairwell. In most, the living unit is upstairs with no exits, and you have to come down the stairs to go out the door. There are problems with the windows because you have a two-storey drop.

I guess those are very general designs and I am just wondering whether or not the corporation is looking at, for future units, the design with safety in mind. More access from the top floor to ground level, maybe an outside stairwell, I am not sure, but something has to be done in these cases. In certain instances at the time of the major fire in Inuvik, the town was investigating setting a town by-law to ensure that any multi-unit buildings have sprinkler systems. I am just wondering if that has been investigated.

Public Housing Rental Rate Structure
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 269

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Public Housing Rental Rate Structure
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 269

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My understanding is that there have not been any deaths because of the design of the unit, but that is no reason why we cannot fix the design and make it so that we do not have to wait for a death in order to change design. We have also had concerns about elders freezing in, in their units. They cannot open the door. They cannot get out until somebody goes by and hears them yelling. So those design problems we do have are going to be looked at. We have already instructed the construction division to get the units back to earth on the ground, and look at how we could substitute some of the materials that are coming in from the South with northern-built stuff, and look at the design so that it fits the community's needs and, as well, is functional and safe. Thank you.

Public Housing Rental Rate Structure
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 269

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Koe.

Public Housing Rental Rate Structure
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 269

Fred Koe Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess my major concern with safety, whether or not it is design, is with the stairwells and lack of exits for elders, handicapped people and children. They just have no way to get out. If the doors are frozen shut, it just adds to the problem.

A lot of the Members have talked about HAP housing, and I would just like to make my viewpoints known. There is a real need to look at the eligibility criteria, especially because there is a real lack of alternatives for housing or home-ownership for young people that are just starting families and have jobs. A lot of these young couples work for government or other public agencies, and as such can get a house. They really have no option. Their option is to live in a tent for a year so they qualify, or live at home in overcrowded situations so they qualify. But if they want to start their own families and live by themselves, they get government housing, because government housing is available to them, which then puts them on the bottom of the list for eligibility. So it is a real catch-22.

We have to look at alternatives, and one option we have talked about is ability to purchase lots. A lot of young couples, a lot of people, not only young couples, a lot of families cannot afford $40,000 or $50,000 lots in tax-based communities, and we have to look, sometime, at land/mortgage deals or some kind of package for them. I do not know if you wish to respond to that.

Public Housing Rental Rate Structure
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 269

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Public Housing Rental Rate Structure
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 269

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree with what the Member is saying, that we have to develop the programs so they meet the people's needs. A lot of them are in catch-22 situations right now. If you go out and work, you do not get a house. If you work for the government and live in government housing, you do not get a house -- your own home. So a lot of these things should be addressed through the new housing strategy of this government on staff housing, making those houses, possibly, available for people to buy so it is their own home, and developing new programs.

We also have to think that a lot of our people are young.

They have young families. We have to design with more imagination, so that people can get a HAP house, for example. It can be a two-bedroom HAP house but it is designed in such a way that the electrical and heating systems allow an add-on to it 10 years down the road or five years down the road, so when their family expands you do not have to give them a new house. Those are the things we are looking at doing.

There is also the land situation. I know in Inuvik it is fairly costly. I guess the community put in a utilidor or something and now people have to buy land there, so the corporation will not be looking at the cost of the land. As well, I understand there were some lots, back in some type of program, paid for in the past.

Public Housing Rental Rate Structure
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 270

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Koe.