Thank you. Before we broke, Mr. Arvaluk made a motion here and the motion is written and translation is available. I'd like the Minister responsible...Mr. Arvaluk, you were wondering if the motion would be debatable. The motion is debatable. Mr. Arvaluk, to the motion.
Debates of Oct. 14th, 1994
Topics
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 295
The Chair John Ningark
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
October 14th, 1994
Page 295
James Arvaluk Aivilik
(Translation) Mr. Chairman, I don't have to read the motion again. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The motion I moved has different reasons, but I would like to say at the beginning that I'm not against this act, Bill 6, and it's very useful, but we don't have to do it in a hurry. It doesn't have to become law right away. The present Legislative Assembly has said many times that this particular act has been dealt with a number of times before. I feel that this act might create problems with some people in the territories, especially the Nunavut area. This act will come into effect before 1999. It will be enforced in 1996. We don't be able to change it and especially the Nunavut people will not be able to change the act.
We all know that whenever an act is enforced, it's very hard to make amendments to it. We all know, Mr. Chairman, and somebody has mentioned it already -- that if the Nunavut people don't like it, we could delete it. It's easier said than done. You can't make amendments to an act after it's been enforced.
Another reason that I have for producing this motion is the government, during the budget session, mentioned that this year and in following years, they will not be spending any money on programs that are not necessary. It seems Bill 6 could be enforced and it's not necessary to be used at the present time.
Also, I would like to say, in conclusion, that Bill 6 is very complicated and it has 74 sections and it was very difficult to deal with, as we found out. It's going to be very difficult to be understood by ordinary people. Also, I believe Mr. Gargan had a private Member's bill with regards to access to information. It doesn't really coincide with the act Mr. Gargan originally wanted to introduce. I feel that Mr. Gargan's private Member's bill was directed to the people and it was not set up by the government.
I'm not saying that I'm against the particular bill, but I just want the Nunavut people to be able to have an opportunity to look at the legislation because there are a lot of things that need to be dealt with before the Nunavut government comes into effect. Especially, because there is a lot of territorial legislation in place at the present time.
This particular bill will have to be followed by the people of Nunavut. They're going to try to find out how clause 7 affects them. Some people are going to be asking how come you Nunavut MLAs are agreeing with this certain legislation and I won't be able to argue with them. I'm just trying to say let's give it a try and enforce it on December 31, 1999. Thank you.
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you, Mr. Arvaluk. Once the motion was put on the floor, I should have indicated that the motion was in order, for the record. The chair declares the motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Dent.
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be voting against this motion and would hope that the majority of other Members will. I think this bill is long overdue. Mr. Gargan first introduced this bill in 1990. It's taken us four years to get it back on the floor and into discussion again. I think there are a lot of people who will think that the two-year implementation period is way too long. If we're talking about delaying it to 1999, it's almost ten years that it would take to get a bill into force that a lot of people feel is very, very important to ensuring openness and accountability in government.
Mr. Chairman, I just would like to encourage other Members to vote against the amendment. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to request a recorded vote.
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Ng.
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
Kelvin Ng Kitikmeot
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My constituents supported the Access to Information Act and I support it, as well. I have some reservations on the cost that had been outlined by Members previously to this particular motion. I know that the legislation that comes forward might not be perfect. There will be an opportunity for amendments by the 13th Assembly and possibly by the Nunavut Assembly if they adopt the same legislation. Or it can be repealed at that time by the Nunavut Assembly if they don't think it is adequate or suits the purposes of Nunavut constituents. So I will be voting against the amendment, as well, Mr. Chairman.
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. To the motion, Mr. Patterson.
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I've heard several honourable Members state that the act is needed and people want it. What I haven't heard in my term in this Assembly are great issues raised about denial of information. I haven't heard even the strong advocates of this bill stand up in this House and say the government is refusing to give my constituents information, the government is refusing to give me information. I have not heard any of those complaints. At least, I don't recall hearing any of those complaints.
So, I'm wondering to myself, what is the great mischief that we're correcting here with this bill? To me, it hasn't been an issue. I'm in committees where information can be obtained readily...
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
An Hon. Member
(Microphone turned off)
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
I'm speaking to the motion, Mr. Chairman. The motion would delay the implementation of this bill. And, I'm saying that for the last three years that I've participated -- and I would like to think fairly actively -- in this Legislature, I haven't heard any problems that have resulted from lack of access to information.
If there haven't been any problems for the last three years, will there be any problems for the next five? That's my question in responding to this amendment, Mr. Chairman. I have not heard access to information as an issue in this Legislature. So, I'm wondering, what's the rush?
I also want to say, Mr. Chairman, that I would like to think that the Nunavut government will not operate in such a climate of confrontation, and such an adversarial spirit, that people will be required to use independent Commissioners to obtain information about the workings of that government. I would like to think that we won't have that climate of confrontation and that, in fact, information that is sought about public business will be readily given.
I suspect that the people of Nunavut, like my constituents, will not be clamouring for such privileges and rights, especially if they have to make the trade-off between housing, jobs, and social programs. Mr. Chairman, I think the effect of this amendment would be that the Nunavut government would not inherit this bill, because it would not be a law enforced in the Northwest Territories on April 1, 1999. It would not be enforced until December, 1999 and, at that time, it would only be enforced in the western territory. It would not automatically be enforced by Nunavut.
Frankly, I'm hoping that the Nunavut government will be an efficient, lean, effective government, unencumbered by bureaucracies and expensive agencies that will cost a lot of money. I would just be as happy to see Nunavut start up as the Northwest Territories started up, without this bureaucracy and this office. If it becomes necessary in due course, then that government will have the option to enact such legislation, but I don't think it is something that is going to be required, as a priority, by the people of Nunavut. In any of the discussions I've heard about the Nunavut government and what we want to see in the Nunavut government, people are not clamouring for a strong access to information bill. That, so far, has not been an issue. Just as I have not seen it an issue in this Legislature.
I know it was an issue in the last territorial election. I know it was an issue in the previous Assembly.
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
An Hon. Member
(Microphone turned off)
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
That's what I said, I know it was an issue. But, I'm saying, Mr. Chairman, that I have not seen any problems that have occurred since the election...
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
The Chair John Ningark
Mr. Patterson...Mr. Nerysoo, do you have a point of order?
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta
No, but I was going to ask for a...I can't ask for a motion, so...
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Patterson, resume.
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
Mr. Chairman, I'm gathering from the sotto voce comments...
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 296
Some Hon. Members
Ohh...
---Laugh
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 297
Dennis Patterson Iqaluit
...that my eloquent remarks are falling on deaf ears. So, I'm not going to say anything more.
---Applause
But, I'm going to be here, -- perhaps in the gallery -- before December 31, 1996 to see just how the next Assembly pays for this expensive and convoluted labyrinth bureaucracy that is envisioned here. Perhaps some day I'll be proud that I asked a few questions, even though they were not welcomed by some Members in this chamber, because I think that we may -- and I hope we're wrong -- have the same experiences other jurisdictions have; that despite all the best intentions, this thing was hijacked by special interest groups, the media, and didn't make life any better for the people we most care about in our communities.
I hope I'm wrong, but I'm pleased I had the chance to make these comments yesterday and today on this bill, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 297
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you, very much. On the list of speakers I have Mr. Ballantyne and Mr. Ng. Mr. Ballantyne, to the motion.
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 297
Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North
Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a motion. I move that we conclude...
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 297
An Hon. Member
(Microphone turned off)
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 297
Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North
This motion is good any time. I move that we conclude this item.
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 297
The Chair John Ningark
Thank you. Mr. Ballantyne, would you repeat your motion, please?
Motion To Extend Sitting Hours, Carried
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 297
Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North
It is clear to me now. Mr. Chairman, I move that we continue debate until we conclude Bill 6.
Committee Motion 21-12(6): To Delete Clause 74 Of Bill 6, Defeated
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 297
The Chair John Ningark
The motion is in order to extend the sitting hours until we conclude the item. To the motion.