This is page numbers 301 - 332 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was science.

Topics

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

(Translation) Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will take the question Mr. Pudluk raised as notice. Thank you.

The Speaker Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Whitford.

Question 155-12(6): Status Of Boat Launch At Prosperous Lake
Item 6: Oral Questions

October 16th, 1994

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Tony Whitford

Tony Whitford Yellowknife South

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I have a question I would like to direct to the Minister of Transportation. Last year, some time, I think the Department of Transportation undertook to develop a boat launch at Prelude Lake -- McMeekin Bay, I believe it was -- to make it a little bit more accessible to the boaters to get onto the lake. Subsequent to their work there, the site they were developing suddenly collapsed into the lake. I just wondered if the department has taken a look at this and what the status of this project now is. It seems to have made the lake a little shallower in some areas, and I was wondering if any work has been done to correct that.

The Speaker Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Minister of Transportation, Mr. Todd.

Return To Question 155-12(6): Status Of Boat Launch At Prosperous Lake
Question 155-12(6): Status Of Boat Launch At Prosperous Lake
Item 6: Oral Questions

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John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I could have fun with this one but I won't. Yes, the honourable Member is correct, and he has drawn this particular incident to my attention on a number of occasions. The Department of Transportation, on those rare occasions when we all make mistakes, unfortunately did not design this thing in the manner that we thought would provide the kinds of facilities for the boat owners in that particular area. There is new installation of concrete launch ramps under way at the present time, along with the floating dock which will make it ideally suited for the boaters and yachters of Prosperous Lake.

Return To Question 155-12(6): Status Of Boat Launch At Prosperous Lake
Question 155-12(6): Status Of Boat Launch At Prosperous Lake
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Supplementary, Mr. Whitford.

Supplementary To Question 155-12(6): Status Of Boat Launch At Prosperous Lake
Question 155-12(6): Status Of Boat Launch At Prosperous Lake
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Tony Whitford

Tony Whitford Yellowknife South

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The subject does cause a little smile, but this is really a serious issue in that I think the general public, as they drive past there, are going to notice that this area has enlarged by quite a number of square feet or yards, at least. The shoreline is now quite a ways out

into the lake as a result of this project that was undertaken. It has caused some problem to boaters there, particularly the workers on Prosperous that were going to build the hydro across there. They had to build a new launch altogether. The floating dock and all that will be all right, but what about the earth and rock that had been put in there that has moved out a bit now? The shoreline is extended. The bottom has come up. Is this going to be taken into consideration as well, to get that back out of there again so that the bottom level is again restored somewhat closer to what it originally was?

Supplementary To Question 155-12(6): Status Of Boat Launch At Prosperous Lake
Question 155-12(6): Status Of Boat Launch At Prosperous Lake
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Minister of Transportation, Mr. Todd.

Further Return To Question 155-12(6): Status Of Boat Launch At Prosperous Lake
Question 155-12(6): Status Of Boat Launch At Prosperous Lake
Item 6: Oral Questions

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John Todd Keewatin Central

Well, Madam Speaker, I am not technically qualified to address that issue as to what's required with respect to the collapsing of the embankment. It's my understanding that the department has made its best effort to provide adequate launching and docking facilities for these Prosperous Lake people who utilize boats in that area. With respect to -- and I know it's a serious issue and I'm treating it seriously -- the embankment collapsing, it's my understanding that when the water rises again, the embankment will be under water and will be A-okay. Thank you.

Further Return To Question 155-12(6): Status Of Boat Launch At Prosperous Lake
Question 155-12(6): Status Of Boat Launch At Prosperous Lake
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. The honourable Member for Natilikmiot, Mr. Ningark.

John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, in the absence of the honourable Minister of Justice, I would like to direct my question to the Premier of this government. Earlier, during Members' statements, many of the Members spoke about their concern regarding the new proposed firearms control by our federal counterpart since the Northwest Territories may be the only jurisdiction -- perhaps also the Yukon -- where the majority of the people use firearms for hunting, sometimes on a daily basis. Madam Speaker, as this is a legitimate concern, I would like to ask the Premier if the representative of this government has conveyed a message to our federal counterpart on our concern regarding the new control. Thank you.

The Speaker Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Premier.

Return To Question 156-12(6): Concerns Re Proposed Gun Control Legislation
Question 156-12(6): Concerns Re Proposed Gun Control Legislation
Item 6: Oral Questions

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Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Madam Speaker, I think I can say, without any hesitation, that the Minister responsible has been conveying that message to the Government of Canada and the Minister responsible over the last period of time, and, presently, the Honourable Minister responsible for Justice is again meeting with Mr. Rock on this very issue. So this has been a major concern that we as a government have tried to relay to Minister Rock, and with the meeting over the lunch hour with the Members of the Legislative Assembly, I feel that message has been clear and definite, Madam Speaker.

Return To Question 156-12(6): Concerns Re Proposed Gun Control Legislation
Question 156-12(6): Concerns Re Proposed Gun Control Legislation
Item 6: Oral Questions

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The Speaker Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Item 6, oral questions. Item 7, written questions. The honourable Member for High Arctic, Mr. Pudluk.

Ludy Pudluk High Arctic

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister responsible for the Department of Education, Culture and Employment to please advise this House of the following:

1. What is the cost for interpreting services for the Legislative Assembly when the House is in session for one month, including wages and benefits, travel, accommodation, per diems, contract services and any committee meetings?

2. How many hours of Legislative Assembly proceedings are broadcast each day on radio and television in aboriginal languages?

3. What are the average wages of government interpreters?

4. What are the average wages of interpreters at hospitals?

5. What are the average wages of court interpreters?

Thank you.

The Speaker Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. Item 7, written questions. Item 8, returns to written questions. Item 9, replies to opening address. The House will recess for 15 minutes. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

The Acting Speaker John Ningark

I will call the House back to order. Item 10, replies to budget address.

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address

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The Acting Speaker John Ningark

Mr. Koe's Reply

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address

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Fred Koe Inuvik

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased today to make a make a reply to the budget address. As politicians, we all have developed and hopefully progressed to some extent. Some politicians, especially the ones who are fortunate to get re-elected, usually have opportunities to participate on the various standing committees and then if really lucky, they may become a Cabinet Minister. In doing so, they create some kind of legacy and leave their mark on our northern society. It has been said that our lives, as politicians, are open books and what was said several years ago may eventually come back to haunt you.

Mr. Speaker, our illustrious Finance Minister is no different if you recall. Our present Finance Minister was the chairman of the Standing Committee on Finance during the last Assembly. Just for fun, I'd like to reiterate some of the comments Mr. Pollard made while he was chairman of the Standing Committee on Finance.

At a SCOF meeting in December 1989, Mr. Pollard stated, and I will quote some excerpts from his statements, "I guess what really concerns me is we are just not seeing the kind of thinking from the Executive that we would like to see, we just keep doing the same old things over and over and over again, and we keep having the same old arguments over and over and over again."

"Mr. Minister of Finance, what we need to know is we have asked all Ministers, have you a plan to cut your budget if the cut comes forward...and everyone knows there is going to be a cut. Are we going to be looking at a budget that goes deeper into debt? You are already $17 million in the hole and, as an individual, you know that I am against that. That is fiscally irresponsible. You guys should never, in my opinion, have come out of that sixth floor with a budget that was going to put us $17 million in the hole. That is absolutely unnecessary."

Also, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to quote excerpts from Mr. Pollard's speech which he made during the Territorial Leadership Committee in November 1993.

"I believe in good fiscal management. Personally, Mr. Chairman, I am opposed to deficit spending. I cannot see us getting into an accumulated deficit and then loading that debt onto our children and grandchildren, and I want everyone to know that is my personal belief."

Minister Pollard has restated his conviction of achieving a balanced budget at every budget speech he has delivered in this House since he became the Minister of Finance. These are honourable traits, Mr. Speaker, but as usual in this business, we are faced with reality and this is what the public hears and are impacted by.

Mr. Speaker, we all know that the task of being the Minister of Finance is not an easy task and I wish to congratulate Mr. Pollard for hanging in there and trying his best.

---Applause

However, as a government, we still managed to incur a deficit of approximately $35 million in the fiscal year 1993-94.

Now for the current fiscal year, 1994-95, this government is estimated to end up with a cumulative deficit of $35 million. This means -- and this is only my personal calculation -- that this government has managed to move from an overall surplus position of about $56 million at March 31, 1993, to a projected accumulated deficit of $35 million at the end of March 31, 1995. To me, this is a negative change of about $91 million.

Now I know that our government has outlined all the reasons why this has happened: forest fires, cuts to social housing programs, and lately the method by which the liability for employee ultimate removal benefits was calculated. However, I firmly believe that some of these events could have been predicted and budget adjustments made earlier. Basically, I think it comes down to the original negotiations to take over responsibilities of some of the programs from the federal government. We were shafted. What was done is done and we are now living with the consequences.

Mr. Speaker, there are lessons to be learned from this. Currently, some of our Cabinet Ministers are aggressively pursuing the devolution of more responsibilities from the federal government to this government, and in some cases, timing is a factor. However, I contest that if the proper framework and preparation for negotiations are not done, then we stand to lose in the long term -- short-term gains for long-term pain.

Mr. Speaker, this government needs a lot of help. And I've mentioned this point before, that maybe we should be hiring some of our aboriginal leaders who have successfully negotiated land claim agreements for their people. I'm sure this government can use their wise counsel and guidance when dealing with the federal government. Let's not make the same mistakes again.

Mr. Speaker, not all is doom and gloom, even though the rays of sunshine sometimes have difficulty breaking through the clouds, especially during this time of year.

In many regions of the Northwest Territories, government is the only game in town. I'd like to quote from Minister Pollard's budget speech, "The capital plan is a major economic and social policy tool. The capital plan represents jobs, it represents the major business opportunity for the year in many of our small communities, it represents needed training opportunities and, lastly, it represents the means to improve the quality of life in our communities primarily for our youth, our elderly and for those in need."

Mr. Speaker, these words are true and express the reality in which a lot of our communities find themselves.

Even though this government may not do everything right, we have to give them credit on the new initiatives and programs which they introduced and implemented, and in many cases, Mr. Speaker, they work for the benefit of our people. I wish to highlight a few of these.

Firstly, the whole manner in which the capital plan is developed. People in the communities now have meaningful input and are part of the process. There are still some bugs to work out but, generally, the new process is being received favourably.

Secondly, I and many of the leaders in the Beaufort/Delta communities applaud the initiatives and actions taken by the Minister of Public Works and Services and the Housing Corporation and the Minister of Transportation and Economic Development and Tourism in implementing the program of negotiated contracts.

The economic benefits can be measured in actual dollars and cents. But what is very hard to measure are the social impacts. One just has to see the pride and self-worth of the employees once they finish their jobs or the project which they worked on. They can very proudly say, I helped to build that.

Thirdly -- and this program is tied in very closely with the capital plan -- is the building and learning strategy co-sponsored by the Ministers of Education, Culture and Employment and Housing Corporation. This program is creating opportunities for people to become tradesmen, wage earners and assets to our economy.

Mr. Speaker, these are just a few of the positive initiatives which are being done, and I'm sure that there are more. But these ones in particular are making a noticeable impact on our economy, and on how business gets done in the north. I fully support these initiatives.

To conclude, Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank all of the Cabinet Ministers who have served during this 12th Legislative Assembly. I would especially like to thank the ones who have visited my constituency and had a chance to meet the residents and see some of the activities in Inuvik. I would also like to thank all the Ministers and their staff for the great cooperation which I and my constituents enjoy when working on government projects and programs.

I would also like to thank my colleagues who serve on the Standing Committee on Finance, for their hard work. I fully support the work which they do and support the recommendations in their various reports.

Finally, I'd like to thank the people of Inuvik for their ongoing cooperation and support. Mahsi cho. Qujannamiik.

---Applause

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address

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The Acting Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. Item 10, replies to budget address. Mr. Ballantyne.

Mr. Ballantyne's Reply

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to take this opportunity to reply to the budget address of the government. The government, the Legislative Assembly, and the people of the north are caught up in an extended period of rapid change and evolution. We have to deal with the very complex issues of division, self-government, and of a federal government that is broke. It is within this context that this government has brought down their capital budget for this year.

First of all, I, too, would like to thank the Finance Minister for his fine work over the last three years. He has tried to do an impossible task of keeping this government in the red when so many issues out of the control of this government are forcing the budget and the actions of this government. I think, if you look at the Finance Minister's record over the last three years, that he's done a very good job. I think he has done as good a job as could have been done.

He's involved in very difficult negotiations now with the federal government. I think the federal government has signalled their intent. They are hundreds of billions of dollars in debt and Paul Martin, over the next two years, is going to be bringing forth some very harsh measures; measures that I think we all have to acknowledge that he's going to have to bring forth. We, in the north, are going to be impacted by those harsh measures.

We've already seen the opening shots across our bow, with reductions in funding for social housing, with the health billings dispute, and proposed cuts to aboriginal funding. I know the negotiations on formula financing are very, very tough. There is no doubt in my mind that the federal government negotiators have a mandate to cut the funding we have. The Finance Minister and the government have a very tough task cut out for them to negotiate a sound fiscal base for this government and for the people of the north, as we come into the era of division.

What all this means to me is that we, in the Northwest Territories, are going to be forced to rethink how we do business in the Northwest Territories, and how we work together. I think we are going to have to have a hard look at how public government and self-government can work together. There may be some that disagree with me, but I don't think there will be enough money in the future for five or six independent governments in the Northwest Territories. That won't happen. I think what we have to look at is a realistic, pragmatic way to ensure that aboriginal groups and regional groups who have very legitimate aspirations about self-government are able to finalize those approaches, but within an overall framework of a central government and a public government.

I, for one, think that there are enough pragmatic people in the Northwest Territories that at the end of the day, there is going to be a middle ground. At the end of the day, there will be a way to use the strengths of a central public government, along with the regional strengths and self-government initiatives. I think the process in the western Arctic now, though it is frustrating to a lot of people, is one that, at the end of the day, will bear some fruit. I don't think we can afford to rush this issue.

I think those groups who are pursuing treaty objectives should be given the opportunity to pursue those objectives. They are legitimate objectives. I think people have to recognize that the right to pursue self-government agreements is a right that is found in the Constitution of Canada. It is something that aboriginal groups have every right to do. I think we have to respect that.

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
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An Hon. Member

Hear, hear.

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

But, again, at the end of the day, I think that we in the north, and especially we in the western Arctic, are a pretty small population. We have tremendous social problems and challenges facing us. We are going to have to find some mechanisms in order to work together. I think that even during post-division, it is very important that very close ties remain between Nunavut and the new western territory.

As a corollary to that observation, I, too, would like to talk a little about the concept of devolution. I will bring to it a slightly different approach than my colleague, Mr. Koe. I'm the first to acknowledge that some of the transfers from the federal government perhaps weren't the best deals we could have got. It is always wise to be prudent in these endeavours. On the other hand, there is another reality. The federal scene has changed so rapidly in Ottawa that if we had maintained the status quo, the federal government would have cut back. They are cutting back across the country, so it is a double-edged sword.

It is great to say that we shouldn't have done it, but that only works if we assume that the status quo at the federal level is going to be maintained. And the status quo won't be maintained. For the last number of years, every year they have been cutting, cutting and cutting. They are cutting programs.

I, for one, think that, although we made some mistakes in the past, the basic philosophy of trying to get as many programs devolved from the federal government to the territorial government was and is the correct approach. I think today it is even more important than it has ever been. Again, I will agree with Mr. Koe that we should be prudent. But, if we wait and if we don't devolve these programs very soon, I will guarantee that two, three or four years from now, there will be nothing left to devolve. The federal government is cutting their programs right, left and centre.

I think it is really important that we move ahead with the devolution of transportation, the devolution of prosecutions, and the devolution of oil, gas and minerals. I think it is very important that this government takes over as many federal programs as it can. I also think it's important for those groups, especially in the western Arctic, who have opposed devolution to look at it in a different way.

What I am proposing and what the government is proposing is that the present territorial government -- which over the next five or six years is going to change dramatically because of self-government and because of the negotiations that are going on, to protect all of the groups active in the north and the western Arctic -- should bring those programs to the present territorial government in a holding pattern, not take away the rights from any of the groups at the end of the day, depending on what arrangement we make with each other or we make with the federal government on how those resources ultimately are divvied up. I don't think it's anybody's right at this time to pre-think what those negotiations, what our self-government or what our western constitutional negotiations, are going to bring.

I think it's really important that we protect the existing pie, so no matter how, at the end of the day, that pie is cut up, there's something in the pie. My theory is that if we don't repatriate these programs to the Northwest Territories, at the end of the day, when everyone might be happy with the arrangements that we have worked out, there's really nothing left to divvy up because the federal government has slashed all their programs.

So that's the context in which I am looking at devolution. I don't see it as a plot to ensure that the status quo is maintained because whether or not we have four or five more programs here in the Northwest Territories, it's not going to change the reality of the self-government negotiations. It won't matter. If we have five more, it doesn't mean that the status quo, I think, is more likely to carry on. What it means is we'll have protected some resources for all northerners, and then we can decide in our own time how these resources are going to be distributed.

So I think it's very important that all of us, when we are making decisions on constitutional development and political evolution in the Northwest Territories, make them in the context of an ever-shrinking federal pot of money. That is going to be, I am absolutely convinced, dramatically shown to us in the next couple of years. I think there are going to be dramatic cuts at the federal level.

On this particular budget that we will be looking at soon, in the next few days, I think the budget was an improvement over the process we had in the past to do capital budgets. I have heard Members say that the communities have been brought much more meaningfully into the process, and I think the government and the Finance Minister deserve credit for those improvements that have been made to the system. I think we have a better product out of the system.

The Standing Committee on Finance this year, because of the fact that when the Minister of Finance made his comments about his budget -- it's impossible to limit those comments, obviously, just to the capital side of our fiscal policy, but it has to look at the overall impact of what's happening financially to the government, and the Finance committee likewise found it impossible to limit our comments to just the capital budget, but again, the linkages between the capital and O and M budgets are key and critical and we can't really talk about one without the other -- tried to provide a broad overview of the standing committee's feelings about the government approach.

We thought that most of the smaller capital details would leave to individual Members to deal with on a Minister-by-Minister basis in the House, and our general comments, I thought, were quite reasonable.

We recognize the difficulty that -- with all the Finance Minister's best efforts to achieve a balanced budget this year -- as happens, things out of the control of the government have impacted on the cash flow of this government. It's going to be difficult, but the committee remains very firm in their resolve that in the long term, it's very, very important that the government stays out of an accumulated debt. The government's not able to do that this year. We would like to see steps taken by the government to ensure that, at least before division, this government has no accumulated debt, therefore, the two new territories can start off without a debt load. We suggested the mechanism of legislation that would compel the government by 1998 to have no accumulated debt, and it's something we hope that this government takes seriously.

When I was Finance Minister, I accused the standing committee, of which Mr. Pollard was chairman, of making a number of recommendations that added to the deficit and at the same time giving me a hard time about having one. We recognize that by us making recommendations we could be accused of that, so we were quite prudent in the recommendations that we made.

The one recommendation about a school-based social system is one that's been tried in other jurisdictions and it's proven not to be very costly. It uses existing resources. The other two concepts, the concept of early intervention to do with special needs students and the concept using Mr. Kakfwi's initiative of zero tolerance to violence, are both concepts that we think are real investments in the future. If you don't make some investments now, in youth especially, the downside ten years from now will be that the cost to this government will be horrendous.

The committee talked a lot about these particular recommendations that we made. We take these recommendations very seriously. We think that we have made recommendations that generally fit within the government's philosophical framework. In fact, they are supportive to government initiatives, and we are very serious about seeing something significant with these recommendations done in the budget session. I think that is only fair. We have gone out of our way to try to not add too much burden to the government's difficulty in dealing with areas which are important in both the short and long-term, and we think we have dealt in a very reasonable, constructive way with this budget, so in return, we very much expect to see some real response reflected in the O and M budget that's coming before us.

So with that, Mr. Speaker, I would like to conclude my remarks. We, in the Northwest Territories, have our problems. We have increasing social problems that we think have to be addressed. We have an increasing fiscal problem, as every jurisdiction in the country has. We have right now a rather confusing array of constitutional processes -- some are linked, some aren't -- at different stages of evolution happening, which a lot of people in the territories find confusing.

On the other hand, we have tremendous strengths in the Northwest Territories, and though it's fashionable to bash governments and to bash politicians and to bash legislative assemblies, in fact, I think it's quite extraordinary how well this Legislative Assembly works. People come from all over the territories, from different cultures, speaking different languages. The government, which is essentially a minority here in the House, has to act as an ever-changing coalition government. Though we have had our differences, I think that this House works as well, if not better, than most legislatures in southern Canada.

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An Hon. Member

Hear, hear.

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

I think that though we can criticize the Finance Minister for having a $35 million deficit, the big picture and the reality of things is that we have the smallest accumulated debt, by far, in the country. We still have very reasonable tax levels here. We haven't been forced to slash social programs. We have been very fair with our unions and, in return, our unions have been quite reasonable with us. We all recognize, it's in everyone's interest, to come to some mutually acceptable resolution to pay. I, for one, am quite confident we'll reach that resolution without having a need for legislation. The need for legislation has never been discussed at all in the House. I haven't heard the Ministers put it forward. The union in the past has proven itself to be reasonable. I think they understand the financial pressures that are upon this government and upon this Legislative Assembly. I, for one, am quite confident that at the end of the day, we'll come out with a reasonable conclusion of negotiations with the union.

I say all in all, the people of the Northwest Territories are quite fortunate. They're in a comparatively very good situation to the rest of the country. The key to maintaining that situation is for people of the Northwest Territories to work together. Thank you very much.

---Applause