This is page numbers 715 - 743 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Topics

Committee Motion 62-12(6): That Health And Social Services Complete Comprehensive Alcohol And Drug Strategy, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed Tabled Document 23-12(6): Report Of The 1993-94 Electoral District Boundaries Commission Northwest Territories

Committee Motion 62-12(6): That Health And Social Services Complete Comprehensive Alcohol And Drug Strategy, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you. Now we will move to the third item on our agenda, Tabled Document 23-12(6), the Report of the 1993-94 Electoral District Boundaries Commission Northwest Territories.

This is an unusual document because there is no one responsible for it. No one will be responding to any questions. Perhaps for the benefit of the Members, we will take time to hear their comments on the report, having had a chance to glance at it and we will get their comments on record. For the record, I will take the opportunity to read the preamble into the record. While you are glancing at your copies, perhaps that will stimulate some thought.

Preamble

This commission was established under the Electoral District Boundaries Commission Act GNWT 1989(1), c.2. In December 1993, the commission was directed through a motion, appendix 1, of the Northwest Territories Legislative Assembly to undertake a review, specifically:

"that a review be undertaken of the area and boundaries of the existing electoral boundaries of High Arctic, Kitikmeot, Kivallivik, Nunakput, Sahtu and Tu Nedhe so that they may conform to the boundary to divide the Northwest Territories."

The office of the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly provided support and administrative assistance to the commission in their deliberations.

A letter regarding the work of the commission and how to make a submission was prepared by the commission and distributed to the organizations set forth in appendix 3 and to Members of the Northwest Territories Legislative Assembly whose ridings were affected.

The commission felt that the public should be afforded full opportunity to make written representations to the commission. In accordance with section 8(2) of the act, the commission gave public notice of the method and time frame for making written submissions to the commission, appendix 2. The commission received only one written submission. This was from the Dogrib Treaty 11 Council. As a consequence, the commission decided not to hold any public hearings.

During previous hearings in 1989-90, the commission heard that the boundaries should conform to the land claims settlement areas. In recommending the new boundaries, the commission took into account the settled land claim areas which include the Gwich'in, the Inuit, the Inuvialuit and the Sahtu.

To the extent that it would make sense, the existing land claims areas were used to realign the boundaries. As a consequence, the recommendations affect two constituencies in addition to those included in the instructions from the Legislative Assembly. These are the Mackenzie Delta and North Slave.

Therefore, the total number of constituencies affected by the recommendations are eight.

The forgoing with appendices 1, 2, 3, and 4 constitute our report, which is respectfully submitted. The terms of this report, including the formal recommendations it contains, reflect the views of the commission as a whole.

It is signed by the Honourable Justice C.F. Tallis, chairperson; Ms. Rosemarie Kuptana, member; and, Mr. Richard Hardy, member.

That concludes the preamble. Any comments? The chair recognizes the Member for Hay River, Mr. Pollard.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

November 2nd, 1994

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John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I move that the recommendations dealing with the electoral boundaries of High Arctic, Nunakput, Mackenzie Delta, Sahtu, Nahendeh, Tu Nedhe, North Slave and Kitikmeot, as contained in Tabled Document 23-12(6), Report of the 1993-94 Electoral District Boundaries Commission Northwest Territories be adopted. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Pollard. The motion is in order. It is properly translated and distributed. To the motion. The chair recognizes the Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to speak on the motion. I cannot support the motion the way it is written right now for a number of reasons. When this document came out, I sent it to the different communities that I represent so the people could look at it; and they did. The instructions that I received from my constituents were not to support this recommendation the way it is written. The reason for that, especially in the Nahendeh constituency area, has to do with the northern boundary of that constituency that has dipped down to conform to the Sahtu claim area. There are a couple of points I want to make on that.

First of all, whenever a claimant group is negotiating with the federal government, the neighbouring group -- for instance when the Sahtu were negotiating their claim with the federal government, involving the southern areas in the Deh Cho area -- is not consulted or involved in making a decision on where the boundaries are going to go. In fact, there is still a lot of concern from people, especially from the Pedzeh Ki area, which is the Wrigley area. Their traditional areas have been encroached upon by people from the Sahtu.

So when the northern boundary was moved down, it was a further alienation of lands, even though we're talking about the land here. For many people in the Deh Cho area, my constituency, there is a problem because they don't recognize that boundary at all. By aligning it with the Sahtu claim area, they don't agree with it.

The other point here is that when we instructed the Electoral District Boundaries Commission to realign the boundary, the motion specifically stated that they realign it to conform to the boundary to divide the Northwest Territories. That was the review to be undertaken for the area and boundaries of the existing electoral boundaries of the High Arctic, Kitikmeot, Kivallivik, Nunakput, Sahtu and the Tu Nedhe area. It had nothing to do with the Nahendeh area.

When the ad first came out, of course people in my area did not realize that it was going to involve their area, as well. But when this boundary commission report came out, it included realignment in our area, as well. The reason why the people in our area were under that opinion is because of the ad in the paper, which is before us under appendix II, page 5, that says we're going to be doing the existing electoral boundaries districts in the Sahtu area. But in our motion it says only to conform to the boundary, so we get mixed messages there.

After this came out, I went to the people I represent, which all elected people are supposed to do, to get feedback from them. The instruction was that they don't agree with the boundary for that reason. Furthermore, there are some groups within the Sahtu area, the Shihta Dene, who have stated that they don't agree with the boundary and they have some problems with the Sahtu claim. They have joined the Deh Cho First Nations because of that. It is their traditional area that is going to be into the Sahtu area. So I have major concerns about that.

I know people are saying that there are no people there, but that's not the point. The point is that we don't know what's going to happen in the future, and this might be in there for a long time. Some of the people may want to move over there; that's their traditional area. We don't know, they might be living there in the future. That's the intention of land claims, to re-establish your whole area.

But the point I want to re-emphasize is that when these claims were negotiated in the Sahtu, the views of the people in my constituency were not taken into consideration by the federal government or the claimant group, and they went ahead and said this is the area we're going to claim; too bad, that's the way it's going to go. So that leaves a very sour taste. We still do not agree with that.

Those were the points I was asked to make on this one, Mr. Chairman. As a result, I would like to move an amendment. Is there a proper way to do these things, Mr. Chairman? Okay.

Committee Motion To Amend Motion To Adopt Recommendations From Tabled Document 23-12(6)

I move that this motion be amended by amending the recommendations considering the electoral districts of Nahendeh and Sahtu by retaining the existing northern boundaries of the electoral district of Nahendeh. Mahsi cho.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

The motion is in order. We're just distributing copies to the Members so they can read the motion, as well. In a moment we'll discuss it.

All the Members have their copies now. The motion to amend is in order. To the amendment. The chair recognizes the Member for Yellowknife North, Mr. Ballantyne.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Mr. Chairman, I, too have a problem with the report. Mr. Chairman, my constituents in Dettah and Ndilo have asked that they have their own separate constituency. So I feel at this point in time that I'm not able to support either the motion or the amendment. I'm going to abstain on all matters to deal with this particular matter, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ballantyne. The chair recognizes the Member for Sahtu, Mr. Kakfwi.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand the reason for the report was to prepare for division, that the elections and the electoral boundaries have to reflect that division is going to happen in 1999, and that the constituencies be realigned for that. Within the western territory, what we have seen is the different electoral boundaries, constituency boundaries, being realigned accepting where the settlement boundaries are for each successive settlement. Federal legislation passed in Parliament now specifies exactly where settlement boundaries are of the Inuvialuit, of the Gwich'in, and of the Dene and Metis of the Sahtu.

These settlement area boundaries are set out in legislation, so whether or not we have political problems with them, they are in fact set in law. To suggest that any one constituency, the constituency of Nahendeh should be allowed, for political expediency to not recognize that reality, should then mean that we don't recognize the boundaries as set out in all the other regions.

That's the difficulty I had with it. The regions of the Sahtu Dene and Metis in their claim are set out in federal legislation. The Electoral Boundaries Commission has simply found it logical to suggest, as we have done in other constituencies, that we should also recognize that fact. We should recognize that all the boundaries...The boundary to divide Nunavut from the western part of the territory was, in large part, negotiated. Neither side was totally happy with the boundary, but it is probably one of the longest running boundaries in the world, as negotiated between two people who are not even governments of the country where the boundaries run.

The boundary between the Gwich'in and the Inuvialuit, the boundary between the Gwich'in and the Sahtu Dene were both negotiated and both sides sat down over a number of meetings and hammered out a boundary that was acceptable to everyone at the end. The Sahtu Dene did the same with the Dogrib and they intended to do the same with the chiefs and the Metis leaders of the Deh Cho first nations. The fact is, there were a number of meetings arranged; three meetings that I know of. The first two were attended, at the third meeting, the Deh Cho leaders walked out, and at the fourth they chose not even to show up. There was a pending settlement on the horizon and I believe both sides had to make an effort to come to some sort of agreement.

It generally followed the land use boundary that was tabled and accepted before regional claims occurred, when the Dene and Metis tabled their land use areas with the federal government in the early 1980s. There is recognition that some Dene people from Fort Norman who purport to represent the mountain Dene of Fort Norman received great political hype from the Deh Cho by saying that all Mountain Dene of Fort Norman have now joined the Deh Cho First Nations. The fact

is, these Mountain Dene, amongst many others in Fort Norman, voted to ratify the Dene/Metis Sahtu regional claim.

The Sahtu Dene are still part of the Fort Norman band and the only legitimate representatives of these people are the chief and council of the Fort Norman band. No one else can legally represent the treaty Dene of the Fort Norman band. It simply cannot be done, although you can make some political posturing to say otherwise. That is a recognized fact, not only by the Government of Canada and this government as well, but by the Dene, themselves. It is only a duly elected or appointed chief who represents the membership. I think the Deh Cho people make a mockery by suggesting otherwise. That is a resentment that many people in the Sahtu have towards the Deh Cho.

There is work to be done, the boundary needed to be done properly and it wasn't, so now it is settled in legislation. It is unfortunate. I know that in one case, the Deh Cho First Nations put a proposal on the table that said they were claiming lands right up to 30 miles of Fort Good Hope, land that has a cabin of one of the former chiefs of Fort Good Hope sitting right on it. You go up the river, go around the corner, and the Deh Cho boundary would be there. That gives you some idea of the difficulties and, perhaps, the unrealistic positions taken during these negotiations.

It is my view, in any case, that if this amendment is supported, then all the boundaries should be realigned as well. The logic behind this is not there. It is simply that the boundaries of the Sahtu are realigned to reflect the regional boundaries set out in federal legislation already. I recognize that it is possible, if the Deh Cho approach Sahtu leaders to change the line, that that can be done. If the Sahtu Dene agree there is some reason to change the line and the Deh Cho are flexible enough to make it worthwhile, it is not impossible to do. I'm not certain that the way the boundary is, is to the total satisfaction of the Sahtu Dene and Metis either. So, there is, I believe, some flexibility.

But I know, at this time, it is not in the works because as far as the Sahtu is concerned, it is finished. But, if the Deh Cho wants to revisit it, they have to make some overtures to people they have offended. Thank you.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Minister Kakfwi. To the amendment. The chair recognizes the Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Morin.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be voting in favour of this motion. I'm not going to get into the debate of whether or not the Sahtu and the Deh Cho have proper boundaries between them. This is an electoral boundary that we are talking about. As far as I'm concerned, the boundary between the Sahtu and the Deh Cho should be solved by the chiefs of those regions and the Metis people, not here. That is where it should be settled.

The commission only received one written submission and that was from Treaty 11. So they didn't have public hearings. At previous hearings, they referred to that. In 1989-90 is when they heard about land claim issues and that the boundary should conform to land claims issues. But that was previous issues and they shouldn't have even referred back to it. This is a new issue and it was from this Assembly. So we made our direction very clear. Then they went way beyond their mandate, as far as I am concerned. They had no business at all in realigning other boundaries. The only boundary they were supposed to do was the boundary between our territory in the west and Nunavut.

If they would have sent out a public notice telling people that they were going to realign all the boundaries according to all the claims, I know they would have had a bigger public response because people would have been concerned. That is the reason I am going to support Mr. Antoine's motion. We shouldn't be looking at the boundaries within the western Arctic. It was only to be the split between the east and west. The rest was irrelevant. If that is to be looked at, then pass another motion and let them go back and look at that. Thank you.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Morin. The chair recognizes the Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to say a few things on what Mr. Kakfwi was saying. He said a lot of things. I don't necessarily agree with everything he is saying, but it is true that there was an attempt made between the Deh Cho chiefs and the Sahtu chiefs to settle this boundary. As he said, there was a pending claim and the position of the Deh Cho was not taken seriously by people in the Sahtu because they had a lot of pressure, so they just went ahead to the boundary. The final decision to have that boundary was not made with Deh Cho involvement. Perhaps it is over for Mr. Kakfwi; that the federal government legislated it and we should all be good little Indians and fall into line with what the federal government has done. But as a Dene, I have been a fighter against the federal government for many years, so this is nothing new to me.

But to say that it is the fault of the Deh Cho because of this boundary is not fair at all. I agree with Mr. Kakfwi that it should be settled between the chiefs of the Sahtu, Nahendeh and involving the Metis people as well. That is who should decide because between those two people, there has never been any comfortable agreement on where the boundary should go. Perhaps it went that way in their claim, but they didn't claim all the area along that boundary. Why should the boundary be along that area because it is in their claim area?

These are the things that have to be discussed yet. I don't think it is fair for us to debate it here and make an agreement at this time. There are people from the Sahtu who came to the Deh Cho and made overtures to us, to see if they could be included in the Deh Cho First Nations. It was discussed at the Deh Cho Assembly and it was agreed there to have these people involved with us. We didn't make great political posturing on this. In fact, this is the first time it has been mentioned in this Assembly. It is a really hard issue to deal with and I am not here to make anyone feel bad about what is going on out there. I am here to represent the people who sent me here. I did just that. I sent this book out and when it came back, everyone was quite surprised that the boundaries had been changed. I agree that if people knew that these boundaries were going to be changed, I am sure there would have been a lot of participation in it.

I don't think the Deh Cho is coming out with unrealistic positions. This is the position we have been standing on for many years. I don't like people trying to make us look bad because of this line here that should have been settled many years ago in the honourable Dene way of sitting down and talking this out. Now we are debating this line in the Assembly. I just want to make sure that people in my area are protected. I propose this amendment and it is up to people in the House to support it or not. Thank you.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. The chair will now recognize the Member for Inuvik, Mr. Koe. Then the chair will recognize Mr. Nerysoo.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Fred Koe Inuvik

Mr. Chairman, there is obviously a lot of controversy on this issue and I believe that it would be beneficial if the western Members had a Caucus. I would like to report progress.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

We have a motion to report progress on the floor. The motion is not debatable. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. I shall rise and report to the Speaker.

Committee Motion 63-12(6): To Adopt Recommendations Of Tabled Document 23-12(6)
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Speaker Jeannie Marie-Jewell

I will call the House back to order. Item 20, report of committee of the whole. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Whitford.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Madam Speaker, your committee has been considering Bill 2, Committee Report 13-12(6) and Tabled Document 23-12(6) and would like to report progress with three motions being adopted and Committee Report 13-12(6) is concluded, and that Bill 2 is ready for third reading, as amended. Madam Speaker, I move that the report of committee of the whole be concurred with.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

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The Speaker Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. The motion is in order. Seconder for the motion. Honourable Member for Kitikmeot, Mr. Ng. To the motion.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

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An Hon. Member

Question.

Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 20: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

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The Speaker Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Question is being called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 21, third reading of bills. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Kakfwi.

Bill 3: Guardianship And Trusteeship Act
Item 21: Third Reading Of Bills

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Nunakput, that Bill 3, Guardianship and Trusteeship Act, be read for the third time.

Bill 3: Guardianship And Trusteeship Act
Item 21: Third Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Thank you. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Bill 3: Guardianship And Trusteeship Act
Item 21: Third Reading Of Bills

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Some Hon. Members

Question.

Bill 3: Guardianship And Trusteeship Act
Item 21: Third Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Jeannie Marie-Jewell

Question is being called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 3 has had third reading. Item 21, third reading of bills. The honourable Member for Hay River, Mr. Pollard.