This is page numbers 155 - 182 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was languages.

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Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 170

The Chair Brian Lewis

Does that help explain what is meant by a broad interpretation, Mr. Zoe?

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, in her report, there is one quote that, in particular, sticks out. It is obvious that the Languages Commissioner has adopted this interpretation of trying to do everything. I am wondering, in terms of focus of this particular office, or it appears that the office of the Languages Commissioner has suffered, in my view, slightly because of your broad interpretation during the first year of operation. I say that because I don't think we have developed a clear direction or focus, and I am talking particularly about being focused, because the report basically touches on almost everything. That is why I said she has interpreted her role as ombudsman for almost everything and she left her office too broadly, doing too much. There wasn't any clear, direct focus. That is the way I read this report of the Languages Commissioner.

I think, Mr. Chairman, the office of the Languages Commissioner, has to determine...Maybe I can ask a question. Does she think they have done too much, too soon, because of that broad interpretation of her role that she says in her report? I don't see a clear direction, Mr. Chairman, so I guess my first question is, does she feel that they have taken on too much during the first year? I couldn't really see a clear direction that your office is going in after we established it, because it seems you are jumping all over the map.

I have a lot of concerns pertaining to that because I would have figured, once we established this Languages Commission, the Commissioner's role when we established that act, the individual would have a priority and have clear focus as to what direction she was going in. It doesn't appear from the report that she's given us that there is a focused approached. There is no clear focus, lack of focus, in other words, in my view, from just reading this report. I wonder if the Commissioner could comment on what I have just said.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 170

The Chair Brian Lewis

I wonder if the Commissioner could respond to the charge that there is a lack of focus and you are trying to be all things to all people.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Harnum

Yes, one of the things that we did say in the report is that during the first year we were trying to figure out what our role was, too, and I think everybody was. We still are. I mean, it's still not perfectly crystal clear, and part of that is because of the legislation which leaves so many grey areas that it's difficult to know where my authority leads me, but I did say in the report that we had dealt with a lot of things that were probably not within our jurisdiction. During the first year, we did that to encourage people to start contacting the office but then we started to refer them to departments. If the department was responsible, we would say we won't handle this. You go to the department. If you can't resolve it, then you can come back to us, and more and more we are doing that now, telling people you go to the department to resolve it.

In that first year that this report covers, we opened 187 files. Those were people that were calling every day for information or with complaints and it does lead us all over the map. We had to examine every single one of those complaints or enquiries to decide whether or not: number one, it was within my jurisdiction; number two, whether it did relate to the status and use of official languages; number three, whether or not there was any violation of the Official Languages Act or any other act or regulation relating to the status and use of official languages, because I have jurisdiction over those, too. That one led us into the Education Act, the Jury Act, the Mental Health Act, the Summary Conviction Procedures Act, and many other acts that relate to the status and use of official languages. That is my mandate. It is in the act, and it has been a Pandora's box, to say, for interpretation purposes, it has led us into a huge mess, a huge area where even in my first year, it wasn't clear. We had to spend a lot of time defining exactly what our jurisdiction was in the office.

It is true. I think in the first year we were not focused. We were trying to find out all the programs and services that are out there, are the problems and what groups exist and what they are doing. It was an information year for us. You have to realize when I walked into this position, I didn't even have a pencil. We had to establish the whole office with furniture and computers, hiring and job descriptions, budget planning and all those kinds of things, as well as handle all of these complaints and enquiries on a daily basis. So, in the first year, it was a big process of discovery, and we wanted to encourage people to contact the office and they did. Without a major publicity campaign in the first year, we opened 187 files.

When people call, we have to take every enquiry or complaint seriously and really look into it. There were a number of them that on the surface I thought, this is nothing, it's not within my jurisdiction or it doesn't really relate to the Official Languages Act, and when we researched it further we found out that it did or that it related to one of these other acts or regulations regarding the status and use of official languages. So, perhaps in the first year that is why we didn't seem to be too focused. Maybe that explains part of it.

I think another part of it, too, is that I was on my own. I didn't have directions, so it really was a year of trying it out for myself and in that first year I didn't meet with any of the MLAs other than a few of them. I sent letters to everybody and asked for input. I met with a few. I didn't have a committee to ask direction from, so I think if there is some lack of direction, part of it, too, is that it's not really clear to me through the act exactly what is expected of the position. That is how I would explain it.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 170

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you very much. So all that time, it was sorting out the mess, I suppose.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Harnum

Yes.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 170

The Chair Brian Lewis

Okay. Mr. Zoe.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 171

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, I think that the problem started, when the Commissioner undertook this broad interpretation of her jurisdiction. Now, I think that the approach that has been taken has not let the Commissioner review exactly what is really needed, because of the approach that she adopted. It could have been more productive or a more concentrated effort on a few areas rather than...If you would have concentrated on a few areas, maybe we would have been more productive rather than a superficial approach to the many areas that are reflected in her report. Now, I know that when we created the act, the intention in creating this position was to ensure that our Official Languages Act is being fairly implemented in the NWT and also for providing the NWT residents with a place to air their complaints. Just from reading the report, they created a language research unit that does all your research for you and so forth. It appears to me that you are creating more work for yourself because of that broad interpretation. It appears to me that we have no clear direction, no focus. In other words, lack of focus, that I noticed while I was reading through this report. I think, perhaps, it should have been done in another manner. Perhaps, we could have been more successful. I have other comments, but, perhaps I will wait until we get into the details of the report, Mr. Chairman.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

I don't think there was a new question there, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Gargan.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to tell the Languages Commissioner that I am glad that she has gone through that whole review with regard to conflict of interest, in regard to relationship to a Member. If I did cause any embarrassment, I am sorry, but this is an area which is touchy. Like you said, we don't know where to draw the line when it comes to conflict, too. I will try to balance my question with regard to your independence and your accountability too. A newspaper article has come up and it is a French newspaper. It has been translated. I won't go into the details of the circumstances of the article itself, but I would like to ask why you chose to go to Saskatchewan as opposed to NWT, hosted by the French community. Whether or not you find that you do have jurisdictions for Saskatchewan with regard to performing your duty, is that one of your broad interpretations?

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 171

The Chair Brian Lewis

Ms. Harnum.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Harnum

First, I would like to say to the Member that I was not upset by the conflict of interest inquiry that was conducted last year. I think it is one of the things that has to have been addressed with this position. It is a new position. There has never been one like this before, and the reporting relationship, even at this point, is still not clear. It was something that had to be addressed. I didn't see it as a personal affront.

With regard to the particular incident that Mr. Gargan is making reference to, the French newspaper carried an article that said that I had cancelled their engagement here in Yellowknife and that I decided to go to Saskatchewan instead. I cannot say the report was inaccurate. It was incomplete. It didn't have all of the details that I think would have helped people understand what was behind the decision. My engagement in Yellowknife was to read a speech in French for about ten minutes to open the youth Parliament. It had nothing to do with official languages. I wasn't asked to speak about official languages. I didn't write the speech. It was simply to read a speech to open their Parliament. I didn't consider that that was as important as dealing with an issue involving... This is difficult for me to discuss because it verges on breaching confidentiality about an issue that I am dealing with. It was a problem that was brought to my attention when I was in Ottawa.

So, I decided to go to that engagement. Unfortunately, it was cancelled the day after the French Youth Parliament, so I never went to Saskatoon either, but I do have a letter of invitation to come back again to discuss it because the problem still exists. I do see that as part of my mandate. If there are NWT students whose education is paid for by this government and they have to go to other institutions in the south, if they are having problems because of language difficulties and if I can be of some assistance in resolving those problems, I do see that as part of my mandate. That is why I made that decision to be involved in that particular issue.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Under the NWT Act, sections 22 and 23 refer to that in which you could let go the issue itself for whatever circumstance or else you also could refer it to the department that might be able to handle the situation. I don't know where you draw the line with regard to your jurisdiction. Another thing that you did say is that, under the languages, too...The letter you wrote to me back in March of 1992, states that the native people just asked if the Federation of Franco-Tenoise are responsible for their own languages, just as the Dene Cultural Institute and the Inuit Cultural Institute has this mandate. Where do you draw the line, then, with regard to those interest groups that have the responsibility of their own languages and your responsibility?

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

It is your jurisdiction, really. The question of how broadly you have interpreted your mandate, this seems to be the issue.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Harnum

When I was appointed, it was suggested that I could establish an advisory council. I have taken certain steps in the last two years to address that and it is in my report. It is one of the things that I need some guidance on again, at this point, to see what exactly the Assembly had in mind when they suggested an advisory council. We wrote 115 letters, for example, to try and get input from all of the native organizations, hamlets, divisional boards, and all sorts of different groups, boards, agencies and MLAs. In the absence of having that advisory council, right now, I make it a point of meeting with major groups that represent official languages, such as Dene Cultural Institute, Inuit Cultural Institute and the French Federation. I try and meet with all other groups that invite me to come, if I can, or at least to be in touch with them so that I know what their priorities and concerns are. My mandate, as I see it, in relation to those groups, is that I consult with them as I am required to do under the act, to

consult with representatives. I do that on a regular basis. I see them as providing me with the information I need from the language communities, so I can address those and bring them to the Assembly's attention. That is how I see my relationship to them. They provide a great deal of feedback on how they feel about the government's implementation of official languages. In each community, they are feeling the effect of it. So they can bring that information back to me and I can pass it on to the Assembly or to the government department responsible.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 172

The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Gargan.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you for the answer. It seems to me that the Languages Commissioner is quite interested in meeting with groups that represent certain linguistic groupings. I find this case, with regard to the Saskatchewan situation, yet you choose not to meet with these groups. You are talking about the Saskatchewan situation as an individual issue or a group issue, but why did you think, in this case, that it was more important to meet in Saskatchewan as opposed to a group of Francophone people who requested your presence?

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you. Ms. Harnum, you were presumably invited to address one group because you were the Languages Commissioner and because of your great interest in various language groups, but you had a conflict because you had another group in the south who you chose to spend your time with. How did you decide that this was a greater priority?

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Harnum

As I mentioned before, at the French Youth Parliament, I was going to be speaking in another official Language, in French. That was the limit of the involvement of that particular engagement with official languages. I wasn't asked to speak about official languages. I wouldn't have even mentioned that there was an Official Languages Act in the Northwest Territories with eight official languages. I wasn't asked to discuss, mention, comment on or participate in any discussions about official languages. To me, that was not as important as dealing with a problem where students were having language problems that I felt maybe I would be able to help resolve. It was as a result of the presentation that I made in Ottawa and the content of that presentation that I was invited to Saskatchewan. They said this is information that we think would really help our faculty to understand what is going on. I felt that was more important.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 172

The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Gargan.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Have you met with the group in Saskatchewan?

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 172

The Chair Brian Lewis

Ms. Harnum.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Harnum

No, I haven't yet. They have extended an invitation to me. The meeting was postponed. I was invited to be there on the 14 and 15 of November. They cancelled it at the last minute and told me they would re-book it. I am expecting to either go there or maybe I will take Mr. Gargan's suggestion and suggest that someone from the department go there. It was particularly as a result of the presentation I made in Ottawa. That was why they had invited me to go there.

Tabled Document 11-12(5): First Annual Report Of The Languages Commissioner Of The NWT For The Year 1992-93
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.