This is page numbers 689 - 717 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was community.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 707

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. The chair now recognizes Mr. Allooloo.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, would like to make general comments. I think the department has made great strides in the last few years toward allowing the communities to have more control over the justice system. That includes local JPs and also justice committees in the communities.

One of the things that the department has inherited through the amalgamation process was the correctional centres from Social Services. My colleague for Iqaluit mentioned today that there have been at least two examples in the Baffin region where a local business was able to take over looking after the young offenders at the open custody type situations. When it was in Social Services it was working very well, and it is still working very well, I believe, to this point. Since the department has taken it over, I understand they are trying to change the policy to suit the department's requirement for those companies that take in young offenders in open custody situations, to be more restrictive to those companies. I am told that the proposal that was put forward by the department is so restrictive that a company in my constituency, if that were to occur, would not be able to meet those conditions which are too strict for that company to comply with. I have raised this concern with the Minister, by letter, and he has told me that this was only a proposal, and that they are soliciting input from those companies and other people.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to know how far the department has gone in terms of developing that policy, whether there has been significant change since that proposal was put forward. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 707

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Member for Amittuq. Mr. Minister.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

I don't have the details here, so I will just make note of the Member's question and perhaps before the day is over get back to him with a response in the course of general comments.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 707

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Member for Amittuq.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would appreciate if, in looking at the new policy, you could address those small companies that look after very few young offenders. The one I am talking about normally looks after, I believe, up to four individuals who are young offenders in the open custody situation.

The one in my constituency has been working very well. None of the people who went through that facility have come back through the system because that family is able to take them out on the land and teach them land skills, that sort of thing, and encourage them to live with the community people as much as possible. Also, the out on the land skills.

I would encourage the Minister to, as much as possible, allow those types of institutions which are working, to continue and not to restrict them so they are not able to function. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Allooloo. Mr. Minister.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you. There is certain legislation that we have to follow. It then becomes a judgement call of how flexible we could be, and how adaptable we could be in view of the legislation. In view of that, I raise to the Member's attention that there has been a public review of my designation of certain facilities as triple designated facilities. There is a dispute right now about whether that was a proper way to act and whether it contravened something that is my responsibility. There is always a danger that someone will challenge the way we operate, whether we are complying with mandates and legislation which we are legally obliged to comply with. I would certainly like to be the great innovator and bend the rules as much as I can.

There is an area where you really wonder whether you are acting in disregard of the law and where you are putting safety of inmates, young offenders and staff at risk. Those are the kind of things that come out of corrections. There is probably a conservative element attached to that sort of thinking, but there is an obligation for us to consider them. When we put young offenders in these facilities, we have to have some sort of understanding with the people providing the service so we know what these people are doing. We try to negotiate an understanding so everyone knows what is going on. It is a bit troublesome in that there is a sincere effort being made to make sure there is some continuity and support. Primarily, whether it is translated that way or not, we are trying to provide some support to the contractors.

For instance, I know that in some cases the contractors take certain young offenders and in a matter of days call back and say this one shouldn't be here. That is a judgement call of the contractor. Sometimes it is different. They need to work with the department to make sure everything goes well and there is some support. There is a commitment, at least on my part, and we will go as fast and as far as we can go to make sure we don't strangle the operations of the community-based operations because of our requirements, laws, regulations and the need for corrections staff to feel in control of what is going on.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 708

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Member for Amittuq.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the Minister's response to continue to help the contractors, who are doing valuable work and working towards rehabilitating those young offenders back to their communities and enable them to live in their own communities. I am told that in schedule A...This facility is run by a family, a husband and wife, and they have to produce nutritional meal that the kids will eat. He was telling me he doesn't know the nutritional value of seal and he didn't know the value of caribou, shrimp, fish or polar bear. I would be required to give the department the nutritional value of the food I feed the kids ahead of time. That would require me to deal with paperwork rather than dealing with the young people who are in trouble. His concern was that he would not be able to take them out again. He would be forced to stay in town so that he could satisfy the department. That is my concern. I hope the department would look at their proposal since the act has not been changed, since the department has taken over that responsibility from Social Services. The communication between Social Services and the contractor was very good, I hope that will continue. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Member for Amittuq. Mr. Minister.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The working relationship with the contractors, for instance in the Baffin, there have been some concerns expressed on the type of requirements we think we need and the way we want to establish a relationship with the contractors. We need more discussion just to keep it clear and to work out some arrangements. There is no doubt that that is what we are required to do. As far as I am concerned, the intent is to take a start at the approach, historically, that corrections has taken to inmates. The communities are really the front line people who are going to soften them up. I am giving moral support to both sides, cheering them on to make sure when the dust clears, corrections is still there and it is seen as a great component of change in the way it delivers its service and gives support to community initiatives. The communities are the champions of bringing change to this institution. It is going to take some hard knocks and we are not going to do it at this level. The people who are going to translate our policies and make them apply on a daily basis are communities and the staff who work with them at the community level. It is part of the growing pains we have to accept. I certainly let everyone know in the department, the community justice specialists and the communities. Where I come from, the communities have to be the ones who demand the change and bring about the change. They are going to get beat up once in a while on some of it -- that is not a good term. I should say there will be some differences in the course of bringing about change. That is part of the homework the community has to do. It is going to be good for everyone involved.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Antoine, Member for Nahendeh.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, would like to say a few things on the Department of Justice. Overall, the department has done quite a good job. I will take this opportunity to mention a few things that I see that need improvement.

First of all, I have some concerns with the legal aid division. Some of my constituents who use that service quite often told me that there are some lawyers hired through the system who -- and I don't know how much money they get paid to do this work -- don't spend very much time with their clients. In a number of cases, they just spend a few minutes before their court time. In a lot of cases, they have been instructed by their lawyers to plead guilty and throw themselves at the mercy of the courts. To me, that is not justice. The department should look at this because it has been mentioned to me quite a number of times. The people who use the legal aid system now feel that is the way justice is served, and I don't believe that is the way justice should be served. I think that lawyers should spend more time with their clients and not tell them to plead guilty for expediency's sake, as it seems to be done. If the department could look into this matter, it would be very appreciated. I don't think I'm the only MLA who has this concern. I've talked to a number of other Members of this House who know this is going on. The sooner this is taken care of, the better.

Another area I have comments on is policing. First of all, speaking specifically for my constituency, the highway is going to be officially opened for summer traffic to Wrigley in June 1994. There was a person stationed there, but he has been pulled back into Simpson. He visits quite often, but once that highway opens, the people of the community are concerned that if there are no police there, more problems might arise. There is a request for a police officer to be stationed in the community of Wrigley prior to the highway being opened in June 1994.

Another community of mine is Liard. At the present time, there are two police officers. There were three at one point in time but one officer was pulled out a couple of years ago. The community has requested that an additional member be stationed there. The reason for that is Liard is one of the entry points by highway into the NWT and there needs to be additional patrols on the highway because of the border with BC, especially when the Minister of Finance is talking about increasing the price of cigarettes. He is going to be increasing the duties of the RCMP in patrolling our borders so that no illegal cigarettes enter. There is definitely a need for additional officers at all the border points.

There is a new initiative that this department has taken that I fully support, that is the community policing initiative where there are members of the communities of Fort Good Hope and Cape Dorset who have been selected to have special training to assist the RCMP work in those areas. It is a pilot project. However, I'm kind of disappointed because I was under the impression that other RCMP members were notified in other communities about the possible pilot projects. But, after nosing around and asking officers who I know in my constituency, none were aware that this program was going to take place. I'm disappointed that only the Minister's community has a pilot project. I think other communities could have been looked at as well.

I totally support the community justice initiative that is going on right now. I think it is a unique direction that this department and government is going. It is a bold move to try to get communities involved. Unfortunately, this should have happened from day one, from first contact. That didn't happen, but we should try to make the best of this program.

In the corrections area, we are spending a lot of government money to take care of people in jail. There is a lot of money going to people who take care of the inmates. I just want to say that we've been asking -- and I think I've mentioned this in the House a number of times -- for on the land programs in the west for a long time. In the Baffin they have an on the land program. It was spoken of today in this House, that it was very successful and it is a good way to approach justice. I know people who are in the corrections system who have asked for this type of program here in the west, however, nothing has been developed to date, that I'm aware of, to do a similar thing. I would like to urge the Minister and his department to look at it immediately. Maybe the people who are in the corrections system can make use of this type of rehabilitation.

I've been told that once somebody is in jail here, often they just lay around, watch TV, eat and sleep. That's basically what it boils down to. With an alternative new initiative, there may be opportunity for these people to benefit and become rehabilitated so they can take on society once they get back out again.

There are people within the jail system who certify different inmates. Some of the attitudes of some of these people are very negative and not productive for inmates. If the department could look into this, I would appreciate it.

Finally, in the area of designating young offenders, we're all aware that there is a lot of dissatisfaction on the part of the people of Fort Smith to the decision that was made by the Minister and his department to triple designate the facilities there. There was a lot of uproar about that. I just wanted to say that this was probably caused by inadequate consultation with the people of Fort Smith prior to changes being announced. I've talked to people there. Even though it is not my constituency, I know people there and some of the people who work within the system are dissatisfied because they weren't aware of any previous consultation, before changed occurred.

This government has taken pride in the fact that they have consulted with the people in the communities where they are providing programs and services. I think that perhaps in this area, this consultation lapsed. I would like to urge the Minister and his department not to overlook the precedent that this government has taken. Mahsi.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Mahsi, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Minister.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you. I will start with the last concerns the Member raised and go back to the first issues he raised. The first one was on the Fort Smith uproar with my designating the correctional facility as a triple designated facility. I always felt it was out of concern for the public and they questioned whether the triple designation was a manageable concept. Others questioned whether triple designation was a legally acceptable way of managing and carrying out our legislative responsibilities. In one instance, the local union representative presented himself to me and in an outburst, said I don't agree with you on the triple designation and there isn't anything you can say that will ever make me change my mind. I had a good look at him and said, that is probably a good reason for not bothering to talk to you about it at all. Generally speaking, people have been concerned and we have conducted a review which I gave you an update on today. It is treated very seriously and I said in a public meeting there that if I am wrong, I will be more than happy to admit that and make the necessary arrangements to correct that. But I don't feel that I am, and if I did even remotely question the decision I made, I would have changed it a long time ago. I feel the decision last year was correct and it is manageable

. It has become a bit politicized, but nevertheless I think it is a manageable concept. The review will certainly help us address that and I will comply with the review, if it is categorical in stating that I was wrong to make the decision I have. I will also expect applause if the review finds that I was right. I would expect the people in Fort Smith to accept that in good grace as well, including the leaders.

There is some work being done with the corrections people in trying to find ways we could use more land-based programming. We are trying to find some ways to do it out at the Yellowknife Correctional Centre. There are currently some discussions going on. I recognize what the Member is saying. We suffer from an insufficient number of staff to do the kinds of things we would like to do, and there is also overcrowding of the facilities. I say with some hesitation about what we can and cannot do under the present legislation that governs us in this area. Nevertheless, we try to comply with that. If there are negative attitudes taken by staff to inmates, then these should be dealt with through private correspondence by Members to me. In all instances, complaints will be investigated to make sure that inmates are not treated adversely by the staff and to make sure staff are not being unduly criticized or painted negatively by allegations in this area.

We will continue to try to find ways to support communities that want to get into discussions on different aspects of community policing. We have been doing extensive work there, as I mentioned earlier, and we will continue to do that. The RCMP have been alerted to the request by Liard for additional RCMP to bring it back to the way it was. The arguments the Member makes have been passed onto the RCMP there.

In Wrigley, I had requested that the community get a permanent RCMP there. Two years ago, that arrangement was made and it needs to be brought back to the attention of the RCMP again and I will do that.

There is a question with legal aid and I will put the question to the staff again, as well. I will try to get some assurance that the people served through legal aid are being served well, and make sure there is proper regard and respect given to the clients and that they not be treated in a way the Member is suggesting. I will be asking about that as well. I think those are the comments the Member raised. Thank you.

Line By Line

Directorate

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments. Does the committee agree that we go into detail? Page 07-8, directorate, total O and M, $2.53 million.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Law Enforcement

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Law enforcement, total O and M, $26.976 million. Member for Nahendeh.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the second paragraph, second sentence, it says, "The GNWT also shares in the funding of a First Nations community policing program." What is this? Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Minister. Ms. Dundas-Matthews.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
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Dundas-Matthews

Thank you. I am sure the Members are probably all aware of the terminology of the Three B program. It used to be referred to as the native constable program. It has been discussed today with the new tripartite agreements. We are now in negotiations with the federal government and, as the Minister and other Members have mentioned, there has been communication with some communities. We are at the early stages of getting the information out to all of the communities.

The federal government is now wanting to enter into tripartite agreements which would involve the community, the territorial government and the federal government for that funding.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 710

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Dundas-Matthews. Mr. Antoine.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Is this funding specifically for First Nations communities? Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you. Mr. Minister.