This is page numbers 689 - 717 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was community.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Member for Nahendeh.

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

How can a community get involved in this? Is there an application process?

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The community justice specialists are the way the communities can start to become familiar with these types of agreements and to begin discussions at the community level about how to make use of these agreements. I think, in the end, we are going to end up with agreements between this government, the RCMP and the communities. The way to do it is through the justice specialist.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Law enforcement. Member for Yellowknife North.

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Mr. Chairman, I have three questions. The Minister has referred to the Solicitor General's branch and the Attorney General's branch but I don't see actual reference to it in the organizational chart. Is there now an official designation of the Solicitor General's branch and the Attorney General's branch? And, if there is, does the Solicitor General's branch include law enforcement, community justice and corrections, and is everything else under the Attorney General's branch? That information would be helpful, just for my own clarification.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North, Mr. Ballantyne. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, in the opening comments I made, I mentioned there are two deputy ministers. That is the way we're set up organizationally. Functionally, the chart we showed does not show those positions, but they do exist. As far as what is on the Solicitor General's side, it includes law enforcement, community justice and corrections which, of course, includes policing. Everything else is under the Attorney General's branch.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Ballantyne.

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

I think that particular organization makes sense, it would just be helpful for everybody to clarify it in the book. I have a question I would like to follow up on with the Minister, a question I asked in oral questions about policing in Yellowknife. I think I've made my point a couple of times that there is an obvious lack of officers here in Yellowknife and that's been the case for awhile. The Minister has agreed to look at it and the Standing Committee on Finance has made it a priority.

The Minister said, in response to one of my questions about this issue, that he would like to see more community involvement and that the community, itself, has to take more responsibility in this area. Perhaps the Minister could give me some examples of what sort of support would be helpful in Yellowknife to help convince the Minister that we do need some extra resources here in Yellowknife.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ballantyne. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

In the comments I was making, I wasn't really putting them in the context of Yellowknife, which is quite a large centre, but more with the smaller communities which I think, in many ways, have a more manageable grasp because of their size and informal relationship everyone has with each other at the community level to grapple with the causes of the problems that lead us to ask for additional policing resources.

I've said on many occasions that I believe communities like Wrigley and some of the smaller communities that do not have a police presence -- and because of some of the social problems like alcohol and drug abuse, and family violence -- that, for the sake of the women, children, and old people in communities like that, we have to make every effort to make sure there is a police presence in those communities, just so people feel safe at night, so they can feel safe in their homes when some of the weekend partying goes on, and so they feel safe to walk out and about their community.

I'm not saying that there are great problems in places like Wrigley, but I just raise it as an example of a community that should have a police presence. On the other hand, we know that the Members from Yellowknife have been saying for some time that Yellowknife is severely under-resourced for the needs they have. I accept that, but I have no way to quantify it. I don't really have a basis on which to talk to the RCMP and to

provide suggestions to the legislature about what to do about it.

The smaller communities that I pointed out earlier are predominantly aboriginal in population. They will have access to some of the First Nations aboriginal policing programs. There is an increasing number of members of the RCMP who are aboriginal who wish to be stationed in the communities. There are programs becoming available that will assist more communities to meet their needs. We will take that into account when we do this review. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Member for Yellowknife North, Mr. Ballantyne.

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

I want to be very clear. The intention here is not to set up a conflict between smaller communities and Yellowknife. I think we all recognize the needs in all communities for adequate protection. I guess from an overall government point of view, it comes down to priorities. I personally believe that as far as nurses, teachers and police officers, they have to be a priority. I think every community has the right to those resources. It is a right in smaller communities and also a right in larger communities to feel some peace at night and to feel some degree of comfort when their children or wives go out, that they are going to be safe.

I don't think it should ever come down to a competition between different sized communities. It is more than that. It is a government acceptance of certain underlying priorities. I think the police have never had any trouble in coming up with criteria-based policing needs; needs driven by numbers and statistics. I'm sure you could get that tomorrow from the RCMP. The other factors the Minister is talking about are important and I agree they have to be brought into the equation. There are many different solutions out there, there are many different opportunities. But, in the meantime, what I want to impress upon the Minister is that the situation here in Yellowknife, I believe, is quite serious. I made a point of, last summer, having a look at what happens on the streets in front of the bars at 1: 00 in the morning when gangs of 1,500 people fight it out. It's like the old west right in the middle of the streets of Yellowknife. The police are obviously hesitant. Unless you have a goodly number of them, it's a very difficult situation for them. During the strike at Giant, just because of the way it taxed resources of the Yellowknife detachment, there were many other things they weren't able to do for a year and a half.

We've had, for the first time of my recollection, things like armed robberies. That was unheard of in Yellowknife up until the last couple of years. I think Members have talked about the number of B&Es we're getting now in Yellowknife, and the problems with kids. So the situation in Yellowknife -- and I hate to dramatize things and I don't want to overemphasize it, but I think it's approaching a danger point. I hope, perhaps, there might be some intermediate solutions to deal with the real problem as we wait for a long-term solution with the sort of studies and the consultation that the Minister is talking about. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ballantyne. I'm not sure whether there was a question there, however, Mr. Minister, you may respond.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you. What we're going to be looking at...As I say, the review is a result of concerns raised by the Members from Yellowknife, but also from places like Nahendeh, Deh Cho and others such as in the High Arctic where communities have no police presence whatsoever. I agree, it should not be and it is not a small community or Yellowknife sort of scenario. I just raised it, and it shouldn't be negatively translated into that sort of a set-up.

My own impression is that Yellowknife is the biggest aboriginal community in the Northwest Territories. Many of my constituents and certainly every Member of this House has large numbers of constituents living here in Yellowknife. It is all of our obligations, I hope, to recognize that. I think even Mr. Todd would agree with me.

There are communities, for instance, that are the same size in the Northwest Territories which have two or three times the number of members that an equivalent community with the same population has. There are reasons for that, but I'm not sure what the reasons are. In some communities there are six members and in other places there are one or two where there are the same number of people. Some are more restless, perhaps, but there are reasons for it and I would like to know what the reasons are and have a good discussion on it, and see, if anything, at some time or other people need to take more responsibility. I don't know what would happen if in some communities we just served notice that over a period of two or three years we're going to start withdrawing the number of members assigned to the community, and that we will await some innovative solutions for them to suggest what would help them bring down the need for the level of policing that they've historically had. I would like to look at things like that.

I know in Yellowknife we're just talking about the youth justice committee. We need to look at things like that and other projects. The community justice specialist was helping us to try to come up with some suggestions from Dettah for things we could use to work with the youth for crime prevention-type projects. Those are the kinds of things we need as well. I don't know if that is a response the Member would feel satisfied with.

But, in the end we're not disregarding the calls for more policing. We are going to look at it. As I say, we're drafting a terms of reference. I would be prepared to make a draft terms of reference available to Members so they can comment on them before we do anything with them. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Ballantyne.

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

I hear what the Minister is saying and I think the Minister is hearing what I'm saying. I totally agree that in the long term we have to look at these different alternatives as far as community justice, youth justice committees and what have you. But I have no illusion that in the short to medium term we're going to need more police officers. In the long term, hopefully we can lower that need curve so it's not quite as sharp as it is right now. I would say in the next five years, there's no doubt in my mind, before some of the other initiatives start to bear fruit, we're going to need more police officers. I think we have to be very pragmatic about that.

I'll take what the Minister says. I want the Minister to take what we're saying very seriously. If the situation in Yellowknife appears to be worsening, I hope the Minister will take whatever steps are necessary to deal with that. Mr. Chairman, that's fine for that part of it.

I have one more question, but before I ask it, I just wanted to make a couple of comments regarding some of the staff of the department. First of all, in the House I would like to recognize the former deputy minister, Geoff Bickert's contribution to the department over the last seven and a half years. I think he made a considerable contribution to the department and to the government. I know he served myself, Mr. Patterson and Mr. Kakfwi, very well. I just want to wish him the best in his future career.

Secondly, I would like to extend my thanks, and I'm sure other Members' thanks, to Mr. Garson who has filled in very ably in the job. I've known Mr. Garson for a number of years, wearing a number of different hats. He is an exceptionably capable individual. I really enjoy dealing with him in this capacity, and I enjoy dealing with him in his capacity as principal secretary.

Two others of your staff, Mr. Minister, I think deserve some public praise. One is, as Dennis Patterson mentioned, Nora Sanders. I think she was an exceptional choice for that position as your ADM of your Solicitor General staff. She has a very strong background here in the Northwest Territories, that has been augmented by experiences in Ontario. I think she does combine those attributes that both you, Mr. Minister, and Mr. Patterson were talking about, in that you need a certain toughness but you also need compassion. I think Nora, very well, combines those attributes. I think she's an excellent choice.

I would also like to say that Miles Pepper has done tremendous service for this Legislative Assembly. Many people don't recognize that when we first became officially bilingual, if it wasn't for Miles, it wouldn't have worked. We would not have gotten our legislation through. Many a day Miles pulled a miracle out of the hat and saved us with his vast network of friends and colleagues across the country. He filled in admirably after Geoff left, and I think he deserves a tremendous vote of thanks from all of us for the work he has done and for the work that I'm sure he'll continue to do.

Mr. Minister, I think you have a very competent, very loyal and capable staff. They are carrying out very difficult responsibilities in a very professional manner. The lady who is sitting beside you sat beside me for many years, Louise Dundas-Matthews, kept me from making many a mistake over the years. I always appreciated her advice and her good counsel. I am generally satisfied with the work of the department and wish you all the best in carrying on.

I have only one request as a former Minister. There is nothing worse than former Ministers second-guessing departments. I have one duty I have to perform from the past. I mentioned it last night in our meeting with the deputy commissioner. The Minister will recall, a number of years ago, one of the three RCMP twin otters crashed. At that time, I believe that the federal government definitely had a financial responsibility. That went on and on. I am not sure if it has been resolved. At one point it was going to go to arbitration. I still think the federal government bears some financial responsibility and liability for that. But when all is said and done, I think the effectiveness of the force has been lessened by only having two planes, rather than three. As communities are demanding more services, there is more movement of prisoners, and having that extra plane really does add to the flexibility of the force to provide services, especially in some of the smaller communities. I will put in one request from the past, as it were, and ask the Minister to have a really good look at the viability of getting that extra twin otter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ballantyne. Mr. Minister.

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you. The issue of the RCMP aircraft was initially agreed to be put to arbitration since we couldn't come to an agreement with the RCMP or the federal government on replacing what we thought was the loss of an aircraft, through the fault of someone else other than ourselves. So we haven't been able to resolve it, but we have been pushing it. I know the RCMP feel very strongly about it, and I have gone to bat for them in that regard as I have for judges and other people who feel they need good strong representation. I am convinced of it. I just want to make sure the responsible party coughs up the money to make sure this aircraft is replaced. We think we should be able to resolve it in the next while.

With regard to the other comments, I just want to raise that the concerns of the level of policing in a place like Yellowknife, register very clearly with me. I have gone to the extent of telling the RCMP that if they feel they are severely under-resourced and it is placing them in an impossible situation, they should tell me that categorically so I can do something about it. If it is a manageable situation at this time, then I would expect them to carry on the best they can. That is the way I have left it. In the meantime, we are going to do a review to make sure the resources we have are distributed in the best way possible. That will help us establish whether this legislature and this government are providing adequate resources for that.

Lastly, I want to thank the Member for his good comments about the staff, including the new staff, the acting deputy minister, Mr. Garson; and, Mr. Bickert, who has served as deputy minister for many years, who has done tremendous work as the chief legal advisor to the government and as the deputy minister as well, for managing the Department of Justice on behalf of this government. I will leave it at that. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. We are just about out of time. Mr. Antoine.

Motion To Extend Sitting Hours, Carried

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mr. Chairman, I would like to conclude this department today. Therefore, I move that we extend sitting hours to conclude this department. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you. The motion is in order to extend hours to conclude this department. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

We shall continue on until the conclusion of this department. We are on law enforcement. Page 07-9, total O and M, $26.976 million.

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Legal Aid