Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On page 10-6, definitive objectives, under the activity of accommodation services, one of the objectives of the department is to transfer the leasing and property management functions of staff housing to the NWT Housing Corporation. Most of the time, when I travel to my communities, I will take the time to talk to as many people as I can. On one of those occasions, I talked with one of the teachers, and she was very concerned about what happens if the staff house is turned over to the Housing Corporation. She feels that she is going to have to pay more rent. I think some of the teachers who have come up here, especially the young ones, are new up here, have just come out of college and have some loans to pay back. We should take the time to look after our staff. That is very important in the area of management. Secondly, when the teachers come up, another civil servant of this jurisdiction, if they find that it is too costly to live in small communities and work, subsequently, there is a high turnover of staff which can be very costly to the system. I just wanted to point that out.

Under the same definitive objectives are utilities. One of the objectives of the department is to plan and implement user-pay for water and sewer services costs for staff housing. Again, I would like to caution the system, not only DPW, but all the departments, that we should really try to look after the staff we have. If it is not too costly, we should try and maintain a good relationship with the staff we have in the system. I know we are running into difficult times. We have had a very bad fiscal situation within the last few years now. I recognize that, Mr. Chairman. Secondly, I hope the Department of Public Works and Services will try to be very sensitive to the community transfer initiative. I know there are municipalities within the system that would like to take over some of the operations and programs of the Department of Public Works and Services.

In my community of Pelly Bay, DPW is maintaining a pump house. Water is delivered to the users in the community and a water truck is driven to the pump house, and from there, they pump the water into the truck and deliver to the users in the community. The hamlet council of Pelly Bay has indicated to me that they are interested in taking over the management of the pump house. I know there will be other similar operations in other communities that want to take over the operations and maintenance of pump houses.

Also, Mr. Chairman, when I used to work for the hamlet council of Pelly Bay, during the summer construction of roads, airstrips, site developments and so on, we, in the community, especially at the municipality level, used to get confused about who would be looking after the management of the summer projects. Sometimes, we were told that DPW was looking after it. Sometimes, we thought that MACA was looking after that. I hope there is no duplication in this area.

Mr. Chairman, basically, having said that, I would like to commend the Minister, under the petroleum products. I read the objective of the department, "To replace short term community fuel delivery contracts with longer term contracts." This initiative would allow the community contractors to be able to plan for the long term. I think this is a very positive step forward by the department. Although, just about everything I say here should be considered with caution.

I would like to recognize the department, especially the Minister for the very positive initiative for the future. I hope that he will be able to implement all the things that he wants to do. I know I will be backing the Minister in some of these cases. But, with regard to the staff houses, the turnover to the housing association, I would caution the Minister to keep in mind, the teachers and other staff of the government are human beings like all of us. Secondly, in the area of municipal services, delivery of water, I hope the department will also keep in mind not to charge too much money to the people who are, in fact, the staff employees of the system.

I mentioned earlier that some of these people who come in from the south to the communities are young and they have dreams and plans. Some day they would like to be able to pay off their loans. Some of the young people who do come up have loans to pay for education. I think we are very lucky, especially native people, that we don't have to pay for education. I would like the Minister to be very sensitive to that area. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That was just a comment. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The transfer of staff housing to the Housing Corporation, leasing and property management, are all economic concerns. My understanding is the way the rent is, it will not get any higher than 25 or 30 per cent of the employees wages. Protection is there for the employee, as well as for user-pay services. It is what they agreed to and what this House agreed to in the past.

We've moved ahead quite well with the community transfer program. We are up and running with that. We've transferred some maintenance responsibilities to Cape Dorset, for example, and Holman as well. We're meeting with McPherson, Aklavik, Tuktoyaktuk, Arctic Red River, Inuvik, and the Hay River reserve. Things are starting to move on that. We are open to and fully supportive of the community transfer program and we will continue to be. We're also replacing short-term fuel delivery contracts with long-term ones. That should mean better economics for everybody. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Very briefly, Mr. Chairman, I think the Department of Public Works and Services should also be commended in the area of amalgamation between the Housing Corporation and Public Works. I think this particular department is always ahead of the other departments in trying to amalgamate two or three departments together. The department should be recognized for that. Not too long ago, I asked the Premier which departments were amalgamated and how many more there were to go. According to my humble understanding, what I read in the definitive objectives, the department of Public Works and the Housing Corporation are almost at the end of putting these two departments together. I think Mr. Minister should be recognized for that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That's it for now.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The praises of this Minister and his department have been oozing through the Chamber this afternoon. I guess I could have some good things to say about the department and the Minister, and I will start off with some positive comments, but I have a fairly strong criticism to make about the handling of personnel matters in the department. These are general comments, and I know they'll be taken in the spirit of constructive criticism that they're offered.

But, getting to the positive first, I do want to underscore the Minister's opening remarks about what I think is a remarkable achievement in the intervention of the NorthwesTel rate increase applications. I think the department and its policy group deserve credit and I would like to say that, as an MLA, I appreciated the cooperation I received from the Minister and his officials to ensure the intervention which came from my constituency -- notably that of the Iqaluit Chamber of Commerce -- was assisted by the resources of the department

and was complementary.

I think, together, a very effective job was done by the government and by various private intervenors, including the city of Yellowknife and other people. It was a remarkable accomplishment. Any less humble Minister would have been arranging great publicity for the feat of having held off a rate increase. I think Mr. Morin was relatively modest about his accomplishments, considering that these days, prices usually go up. It's not often that price increases can be held off. I think it was a very commendable job and I think, really, NorthwesTel was outgunned in those hearings by intervenors, including our government, and that's to our credit.

I also want to say that whenever I have complaints and problems, I am impressed that they're dealt with promptly by the Minister and his officials and taken seriously. I also want to make that positive comment.

However, Mr. Chairman, if the day ever came that I no longer received complaints from employees in DPW in Iqaluit, I would be very surprised. I think it's my observation over 14 years as an MLA, that of all the employees in all the departments -- and there are four or five hundred in Iqaluit -- that I've ever had to deal with, DPW heads the list for labour relations problems, poor management of labour relations, and just ongoing morale problems.

I'm going to take a minute to discuss these, because I think it's an area that the Minister will undoubtedly want to improve. First of all, Mr. Chairman, although I acknowledge there is progress in employing aboriginal people in DPW -- I think the Minister cited a figure of some 40 per cent -- it is not at all clear that this success is resulting in any progress in the management area. Yes, we are hiring Inuit tradesmen, but are we hiring Inuit foremen, superintendents, or project officers? The progress is poor.

Mr. Chairman, let me put flesh to this. I'll just tell a small story. Recently, a very senior long-term employee of DPW in the Baffin region -- and I think Mr. Doherty and perhaps Mr. Morin will know who I'm talking about, he need not be named -- retired. For many years, this senior manager in the department had been working quite closely with a journeyman Inuk in the particular area in which they worked.

When that vacancy arose, I would have thought that a department that would have been conscious of the need to bring forward aboriginal managers, would have said to this long-term Inuit employee with -- as far as I know -- a good employment record, "This competition is coming up. You should know about it," or perhaps, "Make sure you apply," or something like that. Instead, what happened?

The job was put out to competition almost exactly coincident with the Inuk employee's annual leave in a community some distance from Iqaluit. No one in the department ever informed that person the job was coming out for competition, let alone encourage that person to apply. He happened to hear the job was advertised in the newspaper, through talking to a friend from his home community. He happened to apply, and the good news is, he got the job.

But, I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that this a small example of a department that is not making that extra effort to at least inform northern native people and long-term northerners of management opportunities that come forward. I suspect that reflects an attitude that is sometimes typical in this department, at least in my region.

Mr. Ningark just complimented the Minister on how the amalgamation was handled. I heard a very sad story about a twenty year employee, again in the Baffin region, who, first of all, was asked to take a $22,000 pay cut to get a new position within the amalgamated department, accepted that decision, albeit reluctantly, and then got a call from the policy group in Yellowknife saying, "You are back in the Hay Plan after all. Your old salary will be restored and you have been PIO'd." I guess bureaucrats know what that means. I think it is "present incumbent only". The salary was retained. He asked if the information would be confirmed by fax. This was back in May, 1993. He was told, yes. He waited and waited. All other Hay Plan employees got a 1.8 per cent performance increment. This didn't come. The employee was concerned and curious, but his concern was answered in January when he got a notice in the mail saying that this was all a mistake. You have been overpaid. There is a retroactive claw-back. Since there is nothing in writing, we won't honour what you say you were told orally. We are going to claw back the increase over the last six months or so. The bottom line is, the employee got disillusioned, resigned, and came to me to explain the situation after having given notice.

These are two examples, Mr. Chairman, to suggest that, at least in my experience -- and there are many other stories I can tell -- this department needs to do more in the way of good personnel management.

Sometimes, I wonder why there is such a high turnover in the Baffin region. It has been a phenomenal turnover in recent months. Many employees I have talked to feel under seige. Relations between management and workers have always been bad. There is a lack of respect. I think it is reciprocal. I think it is not just the labourers and tradesmen don't respect managers, I sense evidence that it is the other way around. I hear there is an aboriginal support group in headquarters. That sounds like a good effort. But, I wonder whether managers need training in basic management techniques, how to inspire greater efforts through praise and encouragement, not by taking negative action. I don't know what the sources of these problems are, Mr. Chairman. I have, over the years, tried to deal with them, although I feel very awkward because they are usually labour relations matters.

In closing, Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest this is an area that should be looked at. I think the department is good at building, fixing and contracting, but there is this whole human side of managing. Perhaps it is an example of the axiom that a good engineer does not necessarily a good manager make. I just want to make those comments because I think this is an area in which there could be improvement, affirmative action and just general management-employee relations. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. You have gone over ten minutes, however, the penalty is, the next time you watch how long you speak. Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We, as a department, have gone through many changes these last two years, more than any other department because of everything this government does touches us or we get involved with it in some way: consolidation, downsizing, privatization, decentralization, staff housing transfers. I guess Iqaluit, Baffin region, has seen its share of problems while we were going through this transaction period. But, I hear the Member's concerns. We are going to work to make it better. We have also done other things that encourage aboriginal people to stay on in this department or encourage them to work for the department. Even that high school student participation in the introduction to architectural and engineering, that summer program, had 65 per cent aboriginal employees. The Yellowknife region developed a training program for maintenance officer positions. That is a management position, and there are two aboriginal employees in that one. Three aboriginal employees successfully completed the billing operator air course. That is the power engineering course. But, I look around this government, and not only in this department, but if I meet with senior management of the Housing Corporation, I see very few aboriginal employees. It is the same as this department and other departments. It is an issue that I raised with my deputies and an issue that I will continue to work with them on to try to address that. I would prefer to see more aboriginal people in management positions. We will work to achieve that. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will make my comments brief. It won't be so much of a question, but more of a comment. I wish to thank the Minister of Public Works for his endeavours and for his planning for the future, especially in the Nunavut area, when contracts are tendered out. Mr. Chairman, there is an example that I can cite. For example, if someone wanted to have a contract with the Housing Association, even though the ten per cent will be a benefit to the community, this ten per cent is very small. People coming from outside of the NWT to work as labourers under the contractors, I am aware that people are becoming more able to take on contracts. I also know of some people who are able to do the contract work because I have spoken to them. This is very good to see from your constituency. It is good to see more contracts being taken over by the local people.

Mr. Chairman, I would urge the Minister of Public Works to make available building and learning strategies, especially when local people are getting into taking over contracts and providing local employment. It would be good to see on-the-job training. I would encourage the Minister to provide as much training as he can, especially on-the-job training. This has been beneficial to many people. For those of us who cannot speak English, back in the early 1960s, we used to work as labourers. At that time, we were just learning the construction trade, even just as helpers and labourers. I encourage people to get the adequate training required. This can greatly benefit the local people, Mr. Chairman. I would like to see more employment and training provided, especially when contracts are open to tender. It should be that local people be hired first whenever they are able to do the work. If there is a contract being tendered out, the local people and people within the NWT should be kept within the NWT, otherwise all the benefits and profits will flow out of the NWT down to the south.

I meant to make my comments short and I might exceed my time limit, but I will be observant about the building and learning strategies, especially in relation to possible contracts. If it is not too difficult, it should be a policy that local people and people within the NWT be given contracts on a priority basis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Pudlat. The honourable Minister, would you like to respond to the honourable Member?

Yes, thank you. I hear the Member's concerns. They are basically the same concerns I have. We are working to accomplish that. We do have incentives or priorities that local communities get 20 per cent, northern 15 per cent preference, and the training strategy has been in place. This year, it is going to be in Pangnirtung, in the Baffin region. Like last year, it is a continuation in Igloolik. If possible, I am working with the Minister of Education.

The Minister of Education is trying to get funding from the federal government. If we get more funding for the training strategy, then we will expand it immediately into other communities. So, hopefully that will address the issues he has raised. Training is the only way to go. We have to get our people trained to do the jobs. Thank you.

Thank you. General comments. Clause by clause. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Line By Line

Directorate

All right. We are on page 10-10, directorate, total O & M, $6.795 million. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Project Management

Thank you. Project management, total O & M, $6.897 million. Agreed?

Agreed.

---Agreed

Accommodation Services

Thank you. Page 10-12, accommodation services. Mr. Ng.

Thank you, Mr. Ng. Your motion is in order. To the motion.

Question.