I call the House back to order. Before the break, we were on item 7. Item 8, replies to opening address. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a point of privilege I would like to deal with.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Under our rules, a Member is allowed to rise any time on a point of privilege, so I would like to ask you to state your point, Mr. Nerysoo.

Point Of Privilege

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is unfortunate that Members are not here. However, Mr. Speaker, I would like to read into the record and then proceed with the point of privilege argument I would like to raise. It is relating, Mr. Speaker, to a number of issues, particularly the matter of a Member's statement and subsequent news articles that were on CJCD and, I believe, CBC. It related to the Member's statement on my absence as Minister of Education, Culture and Employment by Mr. Dent.

I will read his comment: "Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I rise today on behalf of the Ordinary Members' Caucus to express concern to the government over the actions of the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment. Madam Speaker, last Thursday and Friday in this House we discussed the budget of Education, Culture and Employment and we were under the impression on Friday that Mr. Nerysoo would be here on Monday. As a result, we left that department in the middle of the review. Actually, we had only started general comments.

"Madam Speaker, we only learned this morning that Mr. Nerysoo would be away for part of this week. Now, in committee of the whole, we are faced with the decision as to whether to proceed with the departmental review of that budget or to stand the budget down.

"Madam Speaker, our understanding is that the Council of Ministers of Education meeting and Labour Market Ministers meeting in Toronto were not planned at the last minute. The Minister should have been aware of the fact that these meetings were on.

"During the mid-term review, it was pointed out to the Minister in the ordinary Members' report card, that Members particularly felt that Mr. Nerysoo needed to make more of an effort to 'treat Members with respect.' Madam Speaker, leaving in the middle of the budget process without advising this House that he was about to do so or advising Members that he was going to have to be away before we started consideration of this budget, we don't think, shows respect for the Members or the process.

"Madam Speaker, we are concerned that this demonstrates, once again, an example of his cavalier attitude that we commented on following the mid-term review. We would hope, Madam Speaker, that the government will, in future, make sure that Members of this House are advised when Ministers will not be present so that we can plan properly to deal with their budgets in committee of the whole without having to go through the process of standing departments down and skipping around. Thank you, Madam Speaker."

Mr. Speaker, citation 24 of Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, 6th edition, states: "Parliamentary privilege is the sum of the peculiar rights enjoyed by each House collectively as a constituent part of the High Court of Parliament, and by Members of each House individually without which they could not discharge their functions and which exceed those possessed by other bodies or individuals. Thus, privilege, though part of the law of the land, is to a certain extent an exemption from the ordinary law. The distinctive mark of a privilege is its ancillary character. The privileges of Parliament are rights which are 'absolutely necessary for the due execution of its powers.' They are enjoyed by individual Members, because the House cannot perform its functions without unimpeded use of the services of its Members; and by each House for the protection of its members and the vindication of its own authority and dignity."

Citation 25: "The Speaker has stated, 'On a number of occasions I have defined what I consider to be parliamentary privilege. Privilege is what sets Hon. Members apart from other citizens giving them rights which the public does not possess. I suggest that we should be careful in construing any particular circumstance which might add to the privileges which have been recognized over the years and perhaps over the centuries as belonging to members of the House of Commons. In my view, the parliamentary privilege does not go much beyond the right of free speech in the House of Commons and the right of a Member to discharge his duties in the House as a Member of the House of Commons."

Mr. Speaker, as everyone knows, the whole matter of privilege is very rarely brought up in legislatures or Parliament and it should be dealt with by motion giving the House power to impose a reparation or apply a remedy. Mr. Speaker, as you can see, in many respects, the criticism that has been made on me has clearly not been dealt with fairly. It has caused me some great concern about my ability to provide advice and, in fact, to conduct business in this House. It seems, despite my best efforts to serve this House and to serve Members fairly and reasonably and with considerable consciousness of their concerns, the honourable Members feel that somehow, I'm not performing my responsibilities properly.

But, I also, Mr. Speaker, want to read citation 28: "...it is clear that many acts which might offend against the law or the moral sense of the community do not involve a Member's capacity to serve the people who have chosen him as their representative nor are they contrary to the usage or derogatory to the dignity of the House of Commons. Members of the House of Commons, like all other citizens, have the right to be regarded as innocent until they are found guilty, and like other citizens they must be charged before they are obliged to stand trial in the courts. Parliament is a court with respect to its own privileges and dignity and the privileges of its Members. The question arises whether the House, in the exercise of its judicial functions with respect to the conduct of any of its Members, should deprive such Member of any of the safeguards and privileges which every man enjoys in any court of the land."

Mr. Speaker, the fact is, I have been found guilty of something. In fact, the honourable Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake and other Members have suggested that somehow I'm guilty of not advising anyone, this House, my colleagues and other Members. They have found that I was not willing to be present without finding out all the facts about whether I had advised any of my colleagues and this House of my absence.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to now go to citation 59. Mr. Speaker, the fact is, this statement that has been made has somehow been read by the public that I have been irresponsible to this House and I think that is totally unfair. Citation 59: "Traditionally, articles in the press reflecting badly on the character of the House have been treated as contempts. Two members of the staff of the House have been dismissed for writing such articles, and in 1873 the House judged an article written by a Member to be a 'scandalous, false and malicious libel upon the honour, integrity and character of this House, and of certain Members thereof, and a high contempt of the privileges and constitutional authority of this House'."

Mr. Speaker, I really think that this whole matter challenges my personal honour, and challenges my character and my integrity in terms of my willingness to carry out the duties as a Member of this House and as a Member of Cabinet.

Mr. Speaker, citation 60: "In 1906, Mr. Joseph Ernest Eugene Cinq-Mars, a journalist, was examined at the Bar for an article in the press that the House eventually judged to 'pass the bounds of reasonable criticism and constitute a breach of privileges of the house'."

Mr. Speaker, the fact is that media, CJCD, CBC, News/North and the Yellowknifer have all condemned me as a result of the documents and the statement made in this House.

Mr. Speaker, citation 62, "The Speaker stated: '...in the context of contempt, it seems to me that the amount to contempt, presentations or statements about our proceedings or of the participation of members should not only be erroneous or incorrect, but, rather, should be purposely untrue and improper and import a ring of deceit'."

Mr. Speaker, I have never lead this House, misinformed or deceitfully worked or provided advice to this House. That, in my view, is incorrect. The suggestion somehow is that I'm deceitful and, in fact, irresponsible. I don't ever believe in the 14.5 years that I've been here, I've ever tried to be deceitful or irresponsible or tried to mislead this House.

I've served this House as a Speaker. Not once did I ever try to misrepresent the people in the House or the people of the Northwest Territories or my constituents. Nor have I tried to lie and mislead the House.

Mr. Speaker, on the matter of reflections on Members, citation 64 "The House has occasionally taken notice of attacks on individual Members. Most notably, in 1880 John Macdonnell, while seated at his desk in the House, referred to a Member, L S Huntingdon, as 'a cheat and a swindler'. Removed from the House, he returned twice more to repeat the charge and finally concluded with a written note to the same effect. For the offence, Mr. Macdonnell was judged guilty of a breach of privilege and was summoned to the Bar to apologize."

Mr. Speaker, personally I have been attacked. I think it is wrong to make the suggestion that somehow I have, in fact, mislead and, in fact, there are allegations that have been made against me that I was not prepared to advise nor inform Members of my absence. I have already tabled in this House the fact that I had advised the Members of this House. If the argument is that I should have provided specific dates, the fact is, Mr. Speaker, we have a forum that we have used traditionally in this House for many years, and that has been to utilize the House Leader as being the person who would represent Cabinet. It is not individuals who would, in fact, represent themselves to the Ordinary Members' Caucus.

The other point that has been a long-standing tradition, and I know my colleague, Mr. Patterson, who was Government Leader, made certain of this even in his time in Cabinet, along with my other colleague, Mr. Ballantyne, who was the House Leader previously, made certain that the process of advising the House was not to request to provide for a request to leave, but rather to provide advice that Members would be absent. That has been a long-standing tradition. In fact, that is the process I have used.

Mr. Speaker, citation 67, a suggestion for in this particular case, which is a case of a newspaper, News/North, in fact, the local media here, the radio stations, "It is always the responsibility of the House to decide if reflections on Members are sufficiently serious to justify action. In 1974 and again in 1976, Members complained about newspaper reports about the Speaker allowed that a prima facie case of privilege existed. After debate, the House declined to refer the matters to the Standing Committee..."

Irrespective of that, Mr. Speaker, I still do believe that what has occurred here is the media has accepted -- accepted! -- a statement as being fact, being true. I think, in my view, that is unfair, there is no justification to the arguments that have been made. If the issue that is before the Members of this House is my character, or for that matter is the report card, then the honourable Members in this House should rise and state that fact. But the simple fact is the issue that was brought to the attention of this House was the matter of the absence of Members from this House. During that day there were two other Members of the Cabinet absent, and not once in the documentation was there mention specifically any issue related to those individuals.

Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to review this particular matter. I would ask you to consider the arguments that have been brought forward and bring back, if you would, a decision on these arguments that I have brought to your attention. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Nerysoo has raised his point of privilege and has given us many facts and citations which have given rise in the past to questions of privilege. Under our rules, when a matter of privilege arises -- this is 19(2) -- it shall be considered immediately.

The issue that Members have to consider today is the issue that is raised under 19(3), and I will quote it for you. "The Speaker may allow debate to assist the Speaker to determine whether a prima facie case of breach of privilege has taken place, and whether the matter has been raised at the earliest opportunity." I would like to entertain some debate on this issue on the two points raised under 19(3) which is whether there are lots of facts here to support this as a case, and whether it's been raised at the earliest opportunity. Then, together with the comments that have been made by the Member, plus whatever debate ensues in the House, then some judgement can be made about whether there is a point of privilege.

I would like Members to respond to the point of privilege raised by the Member so it will assist us in making a ruling. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. To Mr. Nerysoo's point of privilege. Any other Member? Mr. Zoe.

Any other Member to Mr. Nerysoo's point of privilege? Madam Premier.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to bring to the attention of Members that perhaps a couple of weeks, before I made a report to the Caucus at our usual Caucus meeting indicating that there would be a difficulty at the end of February where the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment would be away, and that I was committed to an occasion that I would attend. If I did not, he would be given preference ongoing if there was a difficulty in the number in the House. I just wanted to bring that to your attention because perhaps we didn't follow up by letter, Mr. Speaker, but it's not always that we follow up by letter, we normally advise and there was an advisement approximately two weeks before at Caucus on these particular dates. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Madam Premier. Anybody else to Mr. Nerysoo's point of privilege? If there is no further debate on this issue, then I will review the Hansard in detail, Mr. Nerysoo's detailed point of privilege, with all the citations. Later, if there appears to have been a breach, then of course Members could propose a motion to redress. I will report back to the House at a later date. This item is concluded for today, so we will go back to our order paper.

We are on item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, petitions. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 12, tabling of documents. Item 13, notices of motion. Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 15, motions. Item 16, first reading of bills. Item 17, second reading of bills. Item 18, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95; Bill 8, An Act to Amend the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act; Committee Report 2-12(5), Review of the 1994-95 Main Estimates; Minister's Statement 5-12(5), Session Business; Tabled Document 1-12(5), Towards an NWT Mineral Strategy; Tabled Document 2-12(5), Building and Learning Strategy; and Tabled Document 11-12(5), First Annual Report of the Languages Commissioner of the NWT for the Year 1992-93. We will proceed into committee of the whole with Mr. Whitford in the chair.

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1994-95

Committee Report 2-12(5), Review Of The 1994-95 Main Estimates

Northwest Territories Housing Corporation

Mr. Chairman, just for the information of the committee, the Clerk is going to circulate now the 1994-95 initiatives and priorities for all the departments of the government as previously promised. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to present the 1994-95 O and M budget for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation.

The budget before you is based on GNWT funding of $56.641 million. In addition, CMHC will contribute $45.810 million.

As Members are well aware, the federal government has completely withdrawn funding for new social housing construction. However, we still receive Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation funding for the operations and maintenance of 5,227 cost-shared units.

The federal funding cuts have meant a challenge to do more with less. This challenge is being addressed at all levels of the Housing Corporation. Over the next year, all aspects of corporation operations, and the corporate structure itself, will be reviewed. We will make the changes necessary to create efficient, effective operations in communities and across the organization.

I am pleased to report that in December, we successfully negotiated a refinancing agreement with CMHC to reduce the interest we have to pay back on our outstanding loans. The refinancing agreement will save the government over $2 million, annually.

been very beneficial and I appreciate the opportunity to work with Members in such a constructive forum.

The corporation is undertaking several initiatives aimed at partially addressing the significant federal funding reductions, as well as providing a more effective use of the corporation's limited resources. These include pursuing other federal government funding, such as funding for employment, training and development. We are also investigating the possibility of private sector financing.

As Members know, we are currently undertaking a review of the corporation's rent scale. Members have received a full briefing on the problems with the current rent scale. I will also report back to Members by the end of this session on the results of the rent scale review. Detailed briefings and consultations will take place with community groups and tenants through March and into the middle of April, as part of the corporation's community consultation framework. I want to assure Members of this House that any changes to the rent scale will ensure that rents remain affordable for all tenants and that all tenants are treated fairly and equally.

We have some difficult issues to deal with in the months and years ahead. We will have to make tough decisions and changes, and we will need the support of all of our constituents in order to do so. We are addressing many of these issues through the community consultation meetings that are being held in every community. To date, over 50 meetings have been held across the NWT, and the rest will be completed by March 31.

At the community meetings, our district staff share information about federal funding cuts, program and policy changes, and ask for feedback on housing programs and delivery. Recommendations from the community consultation meetings will be forwarded to district meetings. The district meetings will be attended by community housing representatives.

Recommendations from the district meetings will be forwarded to the Advisory Committee on Social Housing for their review. Once this review has taken place, Members of the advisory committee will make recommendations to myself and Cabinet so that we can meet the housing needs of our communities in the best way possible. District meetings will be scheduled following winter session, so MLAs can attend.

In 1994-95, the corporation plans to deliver 100 per cent of its new rental housing units in 1994-95 through the rent supplement program. The 1994-95 budget includes operating funding for the 112 rent supp units built in 1993-94. Delivering all rental units through the rent supplement program gives local and northern developers and landlords incentives to provide private sector rental housing in communities.

We recognize the need to provide better training and support to local housing organizations so they can run their organizations more efficiently and economically. We need to provide local boards, housing managers and staff with the training and tools to provide good housing services to people in the communities.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my opening remarks. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister stated that dealing with the consequences of the federal withdrawal of funding for new social housing construction is the government's number one priority. Committee Members appreciate the Minister's efforts in meeting with the new federal government to encourage the reinstatement of funding support. The committee also recognizes efforts aimed at finding new alternatives. This includes the Minister's participation on the new ministerial sub-committee which, committee Members understand, was established to consider the unique housing problems of northerners. However, we recognize that it will be difficult to persuade the federal government to restore or replace the funding that was recently cut. The committee sincerely hopes that the Minister can find other ways of funding the serious social housing needs of the north.

The committee would like to emphasize that the efforts of the Government of the Northwest Territories to restore funding for social housing must not, in any way, interfere with or attempt to supersede the fiduciary responsibility of the Government of Canada to provide housing to its aboriginal people. Canada's aboriginal people were encouraged to come off the land with the promise that housing would be provided for them. They cam in off the land and now funding for housing has been cut by the federal government. The irony of these funding cuts for northern residents, is that funding is still available to aboriginal people who live on reserves. The relative absence of reserves in the north means that equivalent funding support is not available to provide housing to northern aboriginal people. The committee encourages the Minister to negotiate a solution to our unique housing problem, so that northern aboriginal people are not penalized merely because they do not live on reserves.

The committee applauds the department's recent trend of devolving more responsibility to local housing authorities. As the Minister pointed out, "the more that can be done at the community level, the more efficient it usually becomes, and the more responsible people become."

Corporation Or Department?

The committee agrees with the Minister that the corporation's budget and activities should be streamlined and made as efficient as possible. If changing the corporation into a government department will provide cost-savings, such as the possibility of not having to pay GST, that can be turned into additional housing, then so much the better. We would like to see the review of the corporation's operations focus on cost- savings and efficiency and not merely reorganization for the sake of reorganization. As well, the corporation should facilitate innovative approaches to lever private capital. The committee looks forward to hearing from the Minister following the results of the review.

The committee is concerned that since the dissolution of the corporation's board of directors, financial accountability has been diminished. Members suggest that, until such time as the status of the corporation is resolved, the Housing Corporation be accountable to the Standing Committee on Finance for a full review of its capital and main estimates.

Rent Review

The Minister explained to the committee that rent revenue is one of the factors taken into account when negotiating with the federal government on the formula funding agreement. Further, he said that the GNWT will be penalized in these negotiations with the federal government if rent scales for NWTHC tenants are not revised.

The committee recognizes that a change in the rent scale for NWTHC tenants is also needed to adequately cover the corporation's costs. We also know that the present rental system is unfair and that increases are required to ensure fairness and equity, not only among communities across the NWT, but also with the private housing market.

Nevertheless, the committee is very concerned that the corporation keep its tenants informed about anything affecting their tenancy. It is incumbent on the corporation to take the initiative to make sure its tenants are as well informed as early as possible. Committee Members appreciate the corporation's efforts, so far, to consult the communities and people affected but advise that these efforts must be stepped up and continued. Mahsi, Mr. Chairman.

Agreed.

---Agreed