Madam Speaker, the intent is not for dissolution or cutbacks. As the Member may know, the Kitikmeot Regional Council has operated very effectively and appears to be one of the two that are intact and carrying out their duties in a public forum. There's no intent to make any cutbacks, Madam Speaker.

Thank you. Item 5, oral questions. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment. It is with regard to his statement about the new research support programs. The first program is the assistance support program in which 15 researchers will get up to $1,000 each to hire northern assistants. Research takes a while, it doesn't take one week. It looks like for the amount of money, you would anticipate that one person would be hired for maybe one week at the most, with those kind of dollars. I would like to ask the Minister what exactly was the intent of the $1,000 to hire northern assistants?

Minister of Education, Culture and Employment Programs, Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. The intent, Madam Speaker, is to provide an incentive for those who are conducting research, and to provide additional dollars to the amount of money they already have for the research they're undertaking. In other words, it is a topping of the resources they have so we encourage them to recruit northern students and northern residents to be part of the research.

Thank you. The time for oral questions has lapsed. Item 6, written questions. The House will recess for 15 minutes to half an hour.

---SHORT RECESS

Item 7, returns to written questions. Item 8, replies to opening address. The honourable Member for Iqaluit, Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Patterson's Reply

Madam Speaker, I know this may be the last day of this session. I know that, being in my autumn months in this Assembly, I should be statesman-like and not cause disturbances over issues, but I must say that I have been impelled to rise today to make a brief reply.

I am alarmed that the spirit of goodwill and support for the principles of consensus that marked the opening of this Assembly and all the good words from both candidates for leader and Members of Cabinet about involving ordinary Members in decision making and making the important decisions, ones that were made by all Members, have gone astray and awry.

I have a terrible concern that the reshaping northern government working group and the Advisory Committee on Social Housing are not, in fact, providing meaningful consultation which could lead to constructive criticism of proposed government policies and changes, but rather are being used to rubber stamp policies that have been developed by the bureaucracy behind closed doors and are dumped on Members of the Legislative Assembly at the last minute with the expectation that we won't squawk too loudly.

Madam Speaker, a prime example of that is the report of the Advisory Committee on Social Housing. I don't want to criticize the first report. I don't want to criticize the people who have worked hard on that committee and had done their best, but I do know, from talking to some Members of that committee, that there is a high degree of frustration with the role, just as I suspect there may be a high degree of frustration with the conflicting roles of ordinary Members in the reshaping northern government Working group.

The Minister of Housing had assured us yesterday that the new rent scale has been approved by the Advisory Committee on Social Housing. The advisory committee has a mandate to review new policies and programs and report back to Members of the Assembly on its findings. The committee has apparently been reviewing this new policy for upwards of a year. Is there a word about whether or not the committee approved the new rent scales in this 20-page report? If it is one page, they are not numbered. There is not a word about whether or not the committee approved this policy. It says they had several meetings and they considered it. It says they were briefed on it. It doesn't say, the committee recommends the new rent scale.

It is surprising that the committee has not made any comments, but it is not surprising to me that they have been hesitant to endorse this new social housing rent scale, because the details have only been presented in this House yesterday. That is another concern I have, Madam Speaker. We have a limited time for discussion of this matter. It is going to be rushed into the committee of the whole today. I had no opportunity to consult with my constituents meaningfully. I have done my best. I have warned them that change is coming, but I don't think they would regard that as consultation.

I did go to the trouble of faxing all 44 pages of the rent scale to the staff of the Iqaluit Housing Authority. There was no time to call a meeting of the appointed members on that housing authority, in a rush last night, but I did fax the information to the staff. They met last night. I am grateful that they have provided me with some initial thoughts on the rent scale change from the point of view of people who are going to have to make it work. They weren't consulted. They didn't know what is in this document. My constituents don't know what is in this document and were not consulted. If this is how this government is going to do consultation and this is how

consensus decision-making is supposed to work, then there is something seriously wrong.

I am going to have a few more comments on the rent scale matter, Madam Speaker, but I wanted to give a couple of other examples. The same thing happened with the water and sewer policy. I think that the matter has been before Cabinet and was considered in early March. The Minister of Municipal Affairs had every opportunity to at least put the matter in a Caucus briefing and give us detailed information of the community-by-community impact. That would have been a responsible way to consult with MLAs before this matter was announced publicly and circulated to municipalities. Instead what happened, once again, is we were presented a fait accompli. We've been forced to react after the fact and all of this happened in the dying days of the Legislature, long after the budget of the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs was presented, long after the Minister of Finance presented his budget speech, which suggested there were no new taxes except for corporate taxes.

Many of our constituents, I believe, Madam Speaker, are going to say that these are hidden taxes, these sometimes substantial increases in user fees for water and sewage. Yet, did the government present this information as part of their strategy for the 1994-95 main estimates? No, it was dropped at the last minute. In the Legislature, the Minister presented a statement that it was a fait accompli and it would be administered at a certain time. The Premier suggested that we could make a motion calling for the matter to be reviewed by the Standing Committee on Finance by a certain date, but the government would choose to accept our advice or not choose to accept our advice, as it saw fit.

Now, Madam Speaker, the same thing happened yesterday with the tabling of three important pieces of municipal legislation, or maybe it was four important pieces. Since the tabling, from talking to the Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs, I've learned that there are important reasons for moving with this legislation on an emergency basis and there are important reasons for making the legislation retroactive in one case back to 1969 and in other cases to the date of first reading of the bill.

But, did the Minister give the ordinary Members the courtesy of even consulting with them in Caucus and saying, I've got a problem, I have to move with this legislation, may I please have your indulgence to go ahead on an emergency basis with retroactive legislation, and I want to explain the reasons why so you won't be caught by surprise when you wake up the next morning and find out you've allowed a bill to go past first reading that had such enormous retroactive application? No.

Those are three examples, Madam Speaker, where I think this government -- which has promised consensual decision-making and consultation -- has, for some reason, failed to properly consult with MLAs. I don't have to think hard to think of other examples. I think the staff housing policy was similarly dropped on Members of the Assembly as a fait accompli and, it was only after we had a chance to review it, ask good questions and make constructive comments, that the government, in a series of fits and starts, reluctantly modified the policy so at least it had half a chance of working.

Madam Speaker, this is not the way to run a railroad, but I suspect that on occasion, when Cabinet makes decisions, they think they're on a train. Now, I want to also say that I know we're in the long downward slope towards an election. It's not that far away. There are 18 to 20 months until the next election. I know some Ministers feel there won't be any changes, their positions are secure and they can afford to be a little bit cavalier to those of us who dare ask questions. But, I want to say that I found the attitude that I've been dealt by some Ministers in this House to be bordering on arrogance, to be cavalier, to be flippant, and to trivialize the issues that I dare bring up.

There's one practice I want to specifically mention that I think actually borders on offending my Member's privilege. That is, I'm not amused when I ask a series of questions on behalf of constituents or corporate constituents -- without mentioning their names, I ask the questions not because I want to get into personalities but because I want to get into the issues and policies -- and a Minister says, so and so is a shareholder, you must be representing this particular businessman, you must be representing this particular person. I understand this person is a shareholder, and immediately personalizing the policy issue I wish to discuss. And, perhaps even worse, Madam Speaker, reveals confidential information that is only available to the Minister in their capacity as a Minister, knowing the background of bids, tenders and the like.

I don't think that's a respectful manner in which to respond to questions of a Member of this Assembly and I don't think it's responsible conduct for a Minister. I want to cite that as another example of deterioration of the mutual respect that I think should be in this Assembly, and an erosion of the so-called consensual decision-making process that I think we all believe in. I just hope that these few comments of mine will cause some Ministers -- and I think they know who I'm talking about -- to reconsider their approach.

They have all the power, they have all the knowledge, they have all the staff. I'm just a humble, ordinary MLA who dares to ask a few questions. I don't like the defensive attitude, I don't like the arrogant attitude and I don't like shareholders of corporate constituents being brought up on the floor of this Assembly, to their embarrassment and anger. I don't think it's fair and I don't think it's right.

Madam Speaker, just a few words on the new rent scale. I want to say, Madam Speaker, that first of all, I fully understand -- and I said this about staff housing rental increases -- that there are heavy pressures coming from Ottawa. And, if changes aren't implemented, there will be financial penalties to the Housing Corporation. I also fully understand some constituents of mine could afford to pay more rent. I agree that more money has to be collected from tenants of social housing in the Northwest Territories. I want the Minister and Cabinet to understand that, in principle, I know the difficult task they have to do.

However, Madam Speaker, what I'm really concerned about -- and maybe there was a chink in the armour today -- is the Minister of Housing was suggesting yesterday that this is it, the document is final, no further changes will be considered. Today in question period, he said well, maybe, if there's good advice coming out, I'll refer it back to the Advisory Committee on Social Housing. Maybe this is a suggestion that there is a possibility of good advice coming forward out of this.

I would like to think that if this government believes in consensus and truly believes in community consultation, they will be open to good advice that will come -- and I know it will come from my constituency -- about how to make this thing work. Right now, I can tell the Minister from the brief opportunity I've had to study it, it ain't gonna work in Iqaluit. The result of the application of this policy, as is, is going to undo the progress that has been made in encouraging tenants to take a greater responsibility for the maintenance and the costs of their own housing. That progress will be undone.

Madam Speaker, when I consulted with the staff of the housing authority, including some of the bilingual tenant relations officers, they said they believe the policy is going much too far, much too quickly. You cannot make up for things that should have been progressing overnight, they told me. Even the GNWT employees, they said, were given a better deal of having rents and utilities phased in at a more realistic rate.

The other thing I'd like to stress, based on advice from these employees, is that there shouldn't be a preoccupation with income, Madam Speaker. The reality is, that even if people have good household incomes, that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be able to own and maintain their own homes. It does not necessarily mean that they're going to be able to pay more rent. We all know this to be true, Madam Speaker. Many of my constituents don't have good money management skills. This issue came up in the Report of the Special Committee on Health and Social Services. Many people, because they are new to the wage economy and to dealing with money, cannot yet manage their money effectively. Just because people have a sizeable income, it doesn't mean they are going to be able to wisely spend and invest their money.

One of my big concerns is the progress we have made on tenant education in Iqaluit, and I congratulate the Iqaluit Housing Authority, for the progress they have made in getting people to pay their rents. That progress is going to be undone if we suddenly force sizeable rent increases on people who are struggling now to pay the minimum capped rent ceilings for their housing units. Many of my constituents are struggling to pay even $350 a month. The Minister may say, they have big incomes. There is no reason for that. Madam Speaker, we can't fix that overnight.

One thing that I am very concerned about is the 4.5 PYs given to the Iqaluit Housing Authority to manage over 400 houses, which is the same number of PYs given to Pond Inlet and Pangnirtung housing association with about half of the social housing units. Those 4.5 persons are struggling right now just to deal with the day to day problems of maintenance and getting even the minimum rent paid. They have made progress. There is still almost $1 million in arrears annually in Iqaluit, just on the modest rents that are having to be paid.

Does the Minister really believe that, in one blow, suddenly people are going to be able to cough up $500, $1,000 or $1,500 more a month or 50 per cent of that, over two years? It isn't going to happen, Madam Speaker. That is why we have to carefully look at the timing and phasing in. What will happen is that tenants will give up, they will say they will be overwhelmed with the financial pressures because of the difficulties of managing money, because of social issues which cripple many of these families, and the result will be that some people will be utterly defeated by these increases. I don't want this to happen, Madam Speaker. I want this to work. But, I believe that, at least, some significant number of people are going to throw their hands up and say, we are going to move onto the beach and join the families that are now still, unfortunately, living on the beach in Iqaluit. Or, they are going to say, we will refuse to pay the rent. We will then have to proceed with evictions. We will have to expand the rental staff to deal with these problems.

Unless this matter is handled carefully, that is going to be the result in my constituency. I think the Minister is being driven by the federal government, the financial deadlines and pressures. I think that he should stop and ask, will this new rent scale actually work?

I want to quote to the Minister what one of the staff people said to me when I asked for their comments on this new proposed rent scale. They said to me, "Until recently, there wasn't even a light at the end of the tunnel, but because of the hard work they have been doing there, a light was starting to show. Improved tenant counselling, improved tenant education, people are starting to come in to talk about their financial affairs, starting to take their obligation to pay rent seriously, but if this new rent scale is imposed without some serious reconsideration of the timing and the pace, the light at the end of the tunnel will go out."

Madam Speaker, in tabling of documents, I am going to table a three-page account of initial thoughts on the rent scale changes that were given to me by the dedicated staff of the Iqaluit Housing Authority. I said that I would explain to Members of this House, this was done in a hurry. They are initial thoughts. They are not perfect. Because there is some threat that this may even be the last chance to make any input on this matter, I am going to take the liberty of tabling these comments, so at least I will have some input in this debate today. I want to explain that this was done in a hurry. If we have more time, better information, public meetings, proper explanation of how this thing will work, I am sure there is going to be constructive advice given which can make this new rent scale work.

Madam Speaker, everybody I have talked to about this understands that change is required, that it hasn't been done for many years. I congratulate the Minister for having taken it this far. I have been around long enough to know that there have been several efforts made by previous housing Ministers to revise the rent scale that have completely flopped. Ministers have had to back down, back out or defer plans to make these changes. I would like to see this matter dealt with, but I don't want it to be rammed through. I want to have an opportunity to make some comments and to know that the Minister will be open to recommendations about how it is going to work in Iqaluit.

Madam Speaker, home ownership is put out as a solution for these people who have the high incomes. That is a massive development effort required. I think that all the good candidates for home ownership have already got HAP units and have already built them. Hopefully, they are going to be able to succeed in maintaining those units. These people the Minister is now targeting, who are in social housing now and who may have higher incomes, are going to require much support and assistance. There are only 4.5 people in the Iqaluit Housing Authority. I don't know if the Minister is planning any new and additional resources to help with the community development and the tenant education challenge to make home ownership work. We all want it to work, but it is going to need more resources than the Housing Corporation now has, more preparation of the tenants and I would suspect more time.

One of the things I am now beginning to conclude is that the one thing wrong with this rent scale is it is too much too soon. I think, if the changes were phased in over a longer period of time, yes, I know we will take a hit from the federal government.

Madam Speaker, home ownership is new in the eastern Arctic. Perhaps the eastern Arctic has a break on rents, but the eastern Arctic hasn't had the same degree of support on home ownership programs. I remember the SHAG program when I was first a Member here. I asked a question, why is the SHAG program not available in Baffin Island? There was a SHAG program of the Housing Corporation. It wasn't available on Baffin Island. We are catching up with home ownership in the Baffin. Before you put the screws on with inordinate, unendurable, unbearable rent increases, you have to pave the way so that people can be prepared to manage the money and make their necessary steps towards home ownership.

Madam Speaker, there are many problems with this policy. I will have an opportunity to deal with them in committee of the whole today. I don't want to take the valuable time of Members this afternoon at length, but I want to say that I had not planned to make a reply today, but I feel that this is the last straw after the manner in which the water and sewer policy was dropped on us, this municipal legislation was dealt with, this rental scale change was dealt with and after the somewhat cavalier manner in which some of my well-intentioned questions have been dealt with in this Assembly, I felt the time is appropriate for me to stand up and say, I don't feel that I am being respected as an ordinary Member. My constituents don't feel that they are being properly involved in decision-making. If consensus government means consultation -- real consultation and not token consultation -- then let's make sure these advisory committees, the reshaping northern government working group, the Advisory Committee on Social Housing and the consultation processes that are laid out to deal with the latest major issue of the rent scale change, are meaningful and can lead to constructive criticism and improvement of the work done by the bureaucrats, which is often done in secret and behind closed doors.

So, Madam Speaker, I thank Members for their indulgence and the opportunity to rant and rave a bit. I am glad this session is coming to an end. Perhaps I will calm down once the session is over. I do want to work with the government in a positive way and with the Minister of Housing in a positive way. I admire him for many of the initiatives that he has taken. I admire him for having the courage to deal with this issue. But with all respect, he has some very good policy people who have worked very hard, but they need help. They need to know the situation in Iqaluit and in other communities if they really want to make this thing work. I am willing to help. I hope my advice will be considered and can lead to changes in the rent scale. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

---Applause

Thank you. Item 8, replies to opening address. Item 9, petitions. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 12, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Baffin Central, Ms. Mike.

Item 12, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to table two documents. I wish to table the following document, Tabled Document 8-12(6), Voices: Direction for Improving the Education Act, translated into Inuktitut.

Madam Speaker, I wish to table the following document, Tabled Document 9-12(6), Annual Report 1992-93, Science Institute of the Northwest Territories.

Thank you. Item 12, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Hay River, Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wish to table the following document, Tabled Document 10-12(6), Public Service Annual Report, 1992-93. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you. Item 12, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 12, tabling of documents. Madam Premier.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wish to table the following document, Tabled Document 13-12(6), Minister of Transportation's Response to the Standing Committee on Agencies, Boards and Commissions regarding the Elimination of the Northwest Territories Highway Transport Board.

Madam Speaker, I wish to table Tabled Document 14-12(6), Open for Business: Privatization of the Northwest Territories Power Corporation. Thank you.

Thank you. Item 12, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Iqaluit, Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wish to table a three page document from the staff of the Iqaluit Housing Authority. Tabled Document 15-12(6) is entitled, Initial Thoughts on Rent Scale Changes, April 7, 1994. Thank you.

Item 12, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Whitford.

Thank you. Item 12, tabling of documents. The honourable Member for Kitikmeot, Mr. Ng.