This is page numbers 643 - 675 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

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Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand that under the task territorial schools, as a cost-saving measure, there has been a reduction in the formula for grants. I believe it totalled somewhere around $2 million and was cut from school district grants across the Northwest Territories. I'm just

wondering, what is the final comparison? Have we, in fact, achieved something through smoke and mirrors here? We've given school boards an increase in the formula for special needs but we've cut back even more on their financing for regular students so that, in effect, the net result in the school districts has been less rather than more.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Nerysoo.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chairman, can we just have a moment? We'll get the information. Thank you. I would like to ask Mr. Devitt to respond to that.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you. Mr. Devitt.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Devitt

Thank you. There have been a number of changes to the school funding formula and I'll just review them. We've increased inclusive schooling by $1.5 million which is on a school year basis. The high school residence formula was decreased $1.3 million, as discussed. We are increasing funding, although this isn't directly to school boards, for numeracy and literacy by $550,000 and there is, as mentioned, a $2.4 million reduction to territorial schools. Those are the changes to the contribution budget.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Devitt. Mr. Dent.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It sounds to me then that it is sort of a smoke and mirrors situation although, I suppose, the Minister could argue that by increasing the size of classes the school boards could, in fact, shift the money into special needs or inclusive schooling. I had suspected that was the case and wanted to bring it up. We've given $1 million on one side and taken away $2 million on another.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Is that comment or is that a question? Do you want to respond, Mr. Nerysoo?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The problem with this is that there are other factors. There are forced growth situations of $2.9 million that weren't factored into that amount. The other thing is that there was an increase of $231,000 for the school formula due to growth. There was the issue of personnel. I don't want to confuse the honourable Member and not say that, yes, there will be a reduction of administrative costs but there's also been an ongoing increase and generally speaking, this does not take away from...

First of all, we have not reduced the surpluses that exist in the boards. The other point is that we've not taken away the opportunity for the boards, if there is an increase in their student population, to respond on a regular basis as is the normal case. I appreciate the concern but, again, it's an issue of trying to address the matter of our financial situation.

It's generally our view that there will be no significant problems. I can advise the honourable Member that if there are, I would be the first one to bring the issue back to my Cabinet colleagues. In the original discussions that we've had, it was as high as 10 per cent but I think that they now understand that it is about 2.5 and most of the boards have, in fact, responded very positively to this issue of the decrease.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister for that information. I think he's confirmed that I wasn't confused but, in fact, if the old formula was used it would have cost this government $2 million more. So there has been a $2 million cut to the school boards in what they are going to receive this year. As I understand, that's what he did confirm to me. We've taken away $2 million and added $1 million and I see that quite clearly.

One other comment I would like to make, Mr. Chairman, has to do with the draft document on improving children and youth services in our communities. Since the pilot project shows up under the definitive objectives as part of educational development, I assume this is the proper place to speak about it. I would like to thank the Minister for getting me a copy while we were in session this afternoon. I've read it. I recognize that it is just a draft but I would like to let the Minister know that I am somewhat concerned that it seems to me that this guideline misses the point in a large respect. I recognize that the Minister has said that his department doesn't want to be seen as imposing a program from the centre; they want it to be drafted with input from all of the districts. Unfortunately, I think that what has happened is that perhaps because the districts weren't exposed to the ideas, they've missed the point. What this looks like is a somewhat improved version of an interagency model which is not at all the sort of thing that I think the Standing Committee on Finance had hoped we would see a pilot project for.

This draft does not very clearly state, as a matter of fact it doesn't state at all, that the point of entry for people into our social network should be the schools or that that should be even one idea that a school district or community should consider. I don't know. We seem to have gone on and on about this over the last 18 months since the standing committee brought the idea forward. It doesn't seem to have much support, and with the end of this Assembly coming soon, I don't think it's likely that we will see a pilot project in this coming fiscal year which will, in fact, reflect the focus that we had hoped to see; that, by bringing the point of entry into the school, you force the agencies to cooperate. Rather than just meeting together to talk about cooperation, you bring the focus of the whole family into the school because that's where the whole family gets their treatment. Maybe that's going to come in the second draft. If it is, then I hope to see that. The only thing they talk about in this draft is spaces. The draft suggests communities could use some space in the school, it says, or perhaps they could use space in municipal buildings or perhaps even in people's homes. I think that misses the point.

Mr. Chairman, I think that it's obvious that the standing committee has been beating it's head against the wall if I read this correctly. I have to admit defeat, I guess.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thanks, Mr. Dent. On that note, Mr. Nerysoo.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chairman, it's unfortunate, but I haven't even read the document myself and to be debating it now without knowing what the results are going to be, I don't want to say is irresponsible but I think it's premature because I have not had a chance to see what the boards are going to say in the document. I gave the document with the view that we would get more advice from the Member and not

necessarily get into debate about the draft of the document because I haven't read it yet. I tried to do it out of courtesy for my colleagues, rather than debate the document at this particular time. I apologize if the honourable Member feels that we are not responding but I thought I was doing it out of

courtesy to my colleagues; to get their advice if there are concerns that they have.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. I think it was appreciated. Mr. Dent.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I won't admit defeat. I'll hope that the Minister will take my comments as advice and that I can expect to see some change in the next draft.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

He didn't really mean defeat. He didn't mean that.

---Laughter

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Dent. Any other comments on educational development? Mr. Patterson.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I applaud the increase in special needs funding and I'm pleased that the Minister responded to the recommendation of SCOF. Has the pupil/teacher ratio changed in the formula for funding schools or is this left up to the individual boards? Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thanks, Mr. Patterson. Mr. Nerysoo.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you. If I could ask Mr. Gerein to respond, please?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Okay. Mr. Gerein.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Gerein

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At this point, Mr. Chairman, we have simply gone across the bottom line of the budgets based upon the formula as it would have been. If this persists as a way of having to deal with a school base formula, we are going to have to go into the formula and readjust it. We're not exactly sure at this point how each board will deal with these cuts within the board. They may choose, in fact, to take a significant portion of the reductions out of administration or other areas of flexibility which could result in minimal effect on pupil-teacher ratios. We're not exactly sure because, as the Member knows, these are basically contributions without strings attached, with the exception of the delivery of the educational programs. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 670

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Gerein. Mr. Patterson.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

One other comment, Mr. Chairman. I've made a lot of noise about the changes to the funding of student residences and the study that the department undertook. I don't want to spend any more time on it today. Just to say that I am generally pleased with the way this episode has ended.

I am told by the Baffin divisional board that their recent meetings with the department were satisfactory. The Ukiivik residence will remain open in the coming year, but in a scaled down format, with reduced staff. I think a longer-term plan will give the board and the region time to develop longer-term plans, which I hope will include trades training and continue to emphasize advanced education for those students who need it.

So, I just want to say that I am satisfied with the way things turned out. I know the Minister thinks that I was unduly alarmed. But I think if I hadn't been unduly alarmed, it might not have turned out the way it did. All's well that ends well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Brian Lewis

Okay, that is your general comment, then. Anybody else on educational development.