This is page numbers 549 - 579 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was education.

Topics

Item 13: Tabling Of Documents
Item 13: Tabling Of Documents

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 13, tabling of documents. Item 14, notices of motion. Item 15, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 16, motions. Item 17, first reading of bills. Mr. Pollard.

Bill 19: An Act To Amend The Elections Act, No. 2
Item 17: First Reading Of Bills

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John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Kitikmeot, that Bill 19, An Act to Amend the Elections Act, No. 2, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Bill 19: An Act To Amend The Elections Act, No. 2
Item 17: First Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Pollard. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Bill 19: An Act To Amend The Elections Act, No. 2
Item 17: First Reading Of Bills

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An Hon. Member

Question.

Bill 19: An Act To Amend The Elections Act, No. 2
Item 17: First Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 19 has had first reading. Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills.

Item 19, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96; Committee Report 2-12(7), Report on the Legislative Action Paper on the Office of Ombudsman for the Northwest Territories; Committee Report 3-12(7), Report on the Review of the Legislative Action Paper Proposing New Heritage Legislation for the Northwest Territories; and, Committee Report 4-12(7), Report on the Review of the 1995-96 Main Estimates, with Mr. Whitford in the chair.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

March 8th, 1995

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Good afternoon. The committee will now come to order. What is the wish of the committee? The chair recognizes the Member for Natilikmiot, Mr. Ningark.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon. Mr. Chairman, I recommend that we review Bill 1 and consider the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ningark. Does the committee agree?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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Some Hon. Members

Department Of Education, Culture And Employment

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

When we last met on this item, I believe we had concluded the opening remarks of both the Minister responsible and the chairman of SCOF. At this time, would the Minister like to bring in witnesses to the committee? Mr. Minister.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you. Yes, Mr. Chairman, if I could have the support of the committee.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Does the committee agree?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Mr. Minister, the Sergeant-at-Arms will assist you in bringing in your witnesses. Sorry, Mr. Minister, I misunderstood that you wanted to bring in the witnesses first. We can bring the witnesses in after a short break.

---SHORT RECESS

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

I call the committee back to order. Good afternoon, Mr. Minister. Would you be so kind as to introduce your witnesses to the committee?

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, if I could. On my left is the deputy minister, Mr. Hal Gerein. On my right is Mr. Paul Devitt, who is the director of finance and administration.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Good afternoon, gentlemen. Welcome to committee of the whole. We are dealing with Education, Culture and Employment, section 15-11. At this point we are open for general comments. Mr. Patterson.

General Comments

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have a few general comments. I am mainly concerned about the college system. I had expressed a number of concerns earlier in this session and the last session about the manner in which the student residence was being changed in the Baffin region. I have since been barraged with information about the issue, including a lot of correspondence that went on between the deputy minister and officials of the Baffin divisional board, or the Minister and the Baffin divisional board. This correspondence is quite enlightening, and does satisfy me that the departments agenda to close or phase out the Ukiivik residence was discussed with the divisional board of education some time in advance.

However, Mr. Chairman, I still maintain that the first notice that I got of it, as an MLA, was reading the bald statement in the 2010 education strategy when it was tabled last fall, that the residences would be closed. I still feel that although consultation might have taken place with the education boards, MLAs were somewhat left out of the picture until quite recently. However, that has been corrected; we were interviewed by the consultant doing the study. I call Avery Cooper the "education consultant" because they seem to be doing all the work for education. They must be very good or have good contacts within that department; I don't know what it is about that firm. They did interview Nunavut MLAs and I am now more satisfied that the department is aware that the residence in Baffin cannot be shut down summarily this coming year without a proper transition plan being put in place. I believe one of the elements of that plan has to be assurances that there are academic programs available in the communities in the Baffin region.

The other aspect of the study that I don't think has been properly emphasized is the importance of trades training in the Baffin region. It is a theme that I am going to return to when I make some comments about college funding. Even if we have high school programs, including academic programs, in our communities in Baffin, there are still students who will lack local facilities if they want to pursue trades training. This is another area where I think the regional centre -- with its superior trades shops at the regional high school -- and then the regional residence -- with its residence facilities as an alternative to home boarding in a crowded community -- may fill an important educational need in the Baffin.

So I do hope, as changes are thrust upon the region, that they will not take place at the expense of academic training and of trades training for community residents as well as students from my constituency.

Mr. Chairman, my main concern about this budget is something that is familiar to the Minister, I am beginning to wonder why we established two colleges, East and West -- they are still not even named. I really wonder why we divided the college system in the Northwest Territories. I know that the reason, ostensibly, is to prepare for Nunavut. The Department of Education is the first department that is putting systems in place which will prepare for training in Nunavut and will allow for a smooth transition in Nunavut. But the problem I have, Mr. Chairman, is that we only have a partial college system in Nunavut, and one of the obvious deficiencies is in trades training.

The Minister tabled a return to written question just the other day, in which he openly admitted that trades training is base funded by the GNWT only at College West; nine instructor positions and $860,000.

What I fail to understand, Mr. Chairman, is how are students from Nunavut to get trades training if the Nunavut Arctic College doesn't have any positions or funding to offer trades training. Since what is now College West was delivering trades training for the whole Northwest Territories, it would have seemed to me that when the college was divided, some of the resources in College West -- which presumably were justified by students from Nunavut -- would have been transferred to the Nunavut Arctic College. Not all of the resources, maybe not even half of the resources, but some of the resources. We have ended up with none.

For a high priority area, such as trades training in Nunavut --where people want to take advantage of the employment opportunities that are going to flow from new infrastructure being created in connection with Nunavut, not to mention building houses and schools which one can predict will be continuing activities in Nunavut, judging by the birth rate -- our students have no local access to trades training. And they still have to journey far away from home and family to a location where -- I think the Minister will probably know this -- for better, for worse, the success rate of Nunavut students has not been good.

The same problems emerge with nursing training, and the same problems emerge in other areas, such as heavy equipment operator training and driver education training. I am sure that I don't need to explain that these are areas where training will help create employment.

There also seem to be serious inequities in the support available to student services in College East and College West. So I think we have two new colleges but they are lopsided in terms of funding and in terms of programs. I have to ask the Minister how could he have possibly set up two colleges where the base funding seems so inequitable. I just don't know how he allowed this to happen. I guess I'm wondering, Mr. Chairman, why do we bother setting up two colleges if the Nunavut Arctic College doesn't have the resources to deliver trades training, a fundamental priority in Nunavut?

The information tabled the other day in the House confirms my worst fears that, in fact, there is no equity in the funding. There were no efforts made to balance funding. The college was simply divided on the basis of a geographical line, without any effort to equitably reallocate existing resources. I know there is a new college funding allocation system in place which will, in future, distribute GNWT program and service contribution funding on an equitable basis, according to a formula. This is good news, Mr. Chairman, but it doesn't help deal with the historic inequities that were inherited and were not adjusted when the college was divided.

I've ranted and raved about this before in this House, Mr. Chairman. Last fall, I begged the Minister to do something about this before the transfer took place. I pleaded with the Minister to do something. Now, we're faced with a fait accompli. There are two new colleges and two new boards and I think its going to be extremely difficult to claw back funding, once given. I know the new college board in Nunavut -- or I should say College East, I'm sorry, that's the official term -- is concerned about this issue. I believe they've written to the Minister, or expressed their concern to the Minister at their first board meeting that they have little or no funding for trades training.

I guess that's one of my main concerns, Mr. Chairman. I'm not asking for new money. I know there's not a lot of new money. But, what I would have hoped is that a Minister responsible for college programs across the Northwest Territories would have had the courage to eliminate some of these historic inequities at the time the new colleges were set up. I think that would have been the time to do it. It may be much more difficult to do now.

Mr. Chairman, there are some good things in the budget. I want to commend the Minister for the additional funds that have been allocated to special needs education. I think this is commendable. I noted from his opening remarks that he's restoring some funding -- that was a source of concern last year -- to the college base, of $1 million. I think this is commendable. I know there is not a lot of new money to work with and I believe that a crude analysis would suggest that some of the special needs funding has come at the expense of contributions for regular teaching positions in the K-12 system. In other words, the pupil/teacher ratio may have to inch up a little bit because of the increased special needs funding. Mr. Chairman, if that's the price we have to pay for improving services for special needs kids, then I think the department and the Minister have done the right thing.

I think it's well documented that in a classroom -- despite popular feeling -- increasing the size by one or two kids, doesn't substantially impair the quality of education, even though many members of the public feel it's undesirable. What can impair the effectiveness of a class, however, is if there aren't resources to help the children with special needs, whether they be gifted or in need of attention because of physical or other educational disabilities or needs. I think it's commendable that this money has been put in place.

I also want to say, Mr. Chairman, that I commend the Minister and his department for the work that's been done in moving the Education Act towards modernization. I believe the department is committed to having this act amended and updated during the life of this Assembly. I fully support this. I think they've worked hard on it and achieved, by and large, good results. I'm also familiar with the consultation process that's being followed on the income support reform because I recently attended part of a workshop held in Iqaluit. I think that the focus group approach has proved effective with the Education Act and will prove effective in the area of income support reform.

So, there are a lot of good things that the department and Minister are doing, not all of which I've mentioned. But, I can't get this issue of a half-college being funded in Nunavut out of my craw. I just want to raise that again as a fundamental concern: inequities and unfairness in Arctic College base funding. I just don't know what the answer is. I don't know if I have to tell my constituents not to worry, that they can still go to Fort Smith and have full access to trades training there. It hasn't worked in the past, Mr. Chairman. It's a wonderful community, but Inuit don't succeed there. That is why a teacher education program was created in Nunavut and that is why other teacher education programs have been created in a field-based manner.

We've got to do better than this if we want to train tradespeople in Nunavut. And, I'm not just talking about the Nunatta Campus, Mr. Chairman; I'm talking about locations throughout Nunavut. Let me say that I acknowledge that there are some very sophisticated physical facilities in Fort Smith that can't easily be replaced and they will perhaps have to be relied on long after 1999, Mr. Chairman. I am not suggesting that we should replicate those sophisticated facilities. But, surely, for especially the introductory years of trades training -- where we have carpentry shops probably almost in every one of our major communities, if we looked -- we have facilities to teach the early years of electrical, welding and other trades.

Can we not, with the leadership of the Minister, develop a plan to allocate these resources so that they can be of benefit to residents from all parts of the territories? I think the good people who work in Fort Smith are quite open to this. I've known heavy equipment instructors who have gone out and trained heavy equipment operators in Lake Harbour and have been glad to do it. I've met some of them. They were thrilled to do it. Maybe we should continue to rely on these people, rather than eliminating their positions. I'm just saying, our perception in Nunavut is that we've been left out of trades training in the process of creating a new college.

I don't want to harp on this, Mr. Chairman. The Minister knows of my concern. The department has generously provided me with briefings. But, for some reason, I'm still not satisfied. Those are my comments, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Patterson. There were a number of items that I'm sure the Minister would like to respond to. Mr. Minister.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm not sure I can satisfy the honourable Member today. All I can say is that I believe what we have done initially -- and the honourable Member should realize this -- is we created two colleges on January 1st of this year. What is absent from both colleges is a corporate plan that identifies the direction that the colleges will be taking. Based on a college plan, we will be able to better address some of the concerns the honourable Member has mentioned. There is significant fairness in the way we have tried to address the whole issue of distributing the resources. I can say that I am not going to stand up here today and say we are going to move staff because that would be irresponsible. The Member showed me the opportunities that were in Iqaluit, at least in terms of a long-term trades program. I don't have to be convinced of that element.

Just so that we are clear, if the issue is simply equality of the distribution of resources, one has to look through the system totally. It isn't good enough to say we look at the trades program. We have to look at the issue of distribution of resources based on population, if that is the way you want to do it in terms of being fair to the students you serve. But I don't think that is the way we should do it. I think that distribution should be based on delivering the best programs to the people we are serving. I think the honourable Member would say the same thing.

In that sense, the corporate plan will help us. I think the comments the Member has raised with regard to the trades issue are legitimate. We can do a better job with that and we will work to respond as quickly as we can to the concerns the honourable Member has raised. As far as I know, the College West and College East boards of governors have been very positive and very responsive in their relationship with each other, as well as in terms of working with us. We are prepared to work to try to address these particular issues and the concerns the honourable Member has raised. It needs some time and it may not happen immediately, but the corporate plan will address some of those issues. We will be able to respond more to the issues the Member has raised.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. General comments. The chair recognizes the Member for Thebacha, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a few comments relating to this budget. There are a few comments I want to make in defence of Arctic College. I recognize the concerns my colleague for Iqaluit has put forth. First of all, if there is a lack of trades in College East as there is in College West, I want to advise the Minister that if he is going to make any movement to address that inequity, he should ensure that it doesn't hinder the standards that that college has tried to achieve for so many years; just for the sake of putting trades in there.

We all know the campus in Fort Smith was developed in the late 1960s and early 1970s. It isn't something that you can just put in and expect to run. It is ironic because I remember when I first became a Member and Mr. Patterson was the Minister of Education, he was the very Minister who was going to take away that heavy equipment program. We suggested that he modify it, so he could continue with it. There is no doubt that the instructors are more than happy to go into the different communities, and they have been. I don't think it is fair to expect everything. This whole split into east and west is only being done now. It takes a long time for it to build into an institution.

I am concerned with the fact that there are complaints about inequities. There are inequities in programs, but these programs have taken a long time to develop and they will probably continue to develop. They have had different standards to achieve. Furthermore, these programs can't be placed all over where their standards are going to be hindered or diluted in any way.

Mr. Chairman, I did want to state one thing with regard to the college. There is one area I have noticed a lack of movement in; that is, with respect to acquiring aboriginal people as instructors. That is one area the Minister and the college have to work towards. I think they could possibly look at some kind of training program, perhaps something similar to what TEP is doing. They are trying to bring northern native teachers into the schools. If you even look at the management studies program or any type of academic studies program, back to the early 1980s, I don't think there are any aboriginal people who are instructors in those programs. This is the type of thing the college should be working to develop.

Mr. Chairman, the other area with respect to the college is we have to stop bringing in instructors from the south for short periods of time. This has been happening in my campus for the past four or five years. I bring it to the Minister's attention every year. There is no movement, and that comes back to training again, to be able to stop bringing in people from the south to deliver certain courses. It seems that there is an attitude of accessing whoever they know who can deliver the course. That is easier than looking at the long-term solution of training someone locally. In this case, it is an electrician instructor and there are many electricians in Fort Smith. The component of the instruction course is one area electricians can look at trying to achieve.

Mr. Chairman, I want to state that I am very pleased to hear the Minister state that he was going to bring in the Education Act. The modification of that particular act certainly needs to be addressed. We have all agreed that the act is very archaic. There have been many concerns with respect to education. In our area, the South Slave Division Board of Education is in a real deficit situation. I continually wrote letters to the Minister and it wasn't until we asked for a financial audit, that there was enough for the department to justify moving in on the South Slave Division Board of Education and saying their expenditures weren't done properly. Now, as parents in the South Slave area, we have to face a $2 million deficit for that board. The department says you have to try to address this deficit. I was told that a good portion of that deficit is because the South Slave is an area where there is a long tenure of teachers for the Education department. Apparently, the retirement program has put some strain on the debt and increased it because of the long tenure teachers have there. There should be some method in Education to address that long tenure, so we can alleviate the debt for the South Slave Divisional Board of Education.

There is another area with respect to the debt; when the act is being modified, it has to address these type of abuses of financial expenditures when they are done by these boards, and the Minister must have the ability to address them effectively and efficiently and as quickly as possibly. They shouldn't be allowed to go into a large debt amount and then the department take action, because it creates a lot of problems for the whole region.

One area in that act that has been a concern for quite some time -- and it has to be addressed -- is the ability to take principals out of the union and allow them to manage their respective schools. All being in the same union now, it makes it difficult for them to manage effectively. I think this area has to be addressed and I am sure that it is probably going to be. I look forward to the Minister tabling the Education Act in the House, and I look forward to addressing and looking to see if some of these concerns are going to be looked at.

Just in closing, Mr. Chairman, there are two concerns that have been brought to my attention. There seems to be a lack of commitment to implement the new star quest program which the band has been fully supportive of; the native groups in Fort Smith want the implementation. There has been some reluctance from department officials to implement it and I hope that this program can be implemented for the children who may require the extra support this program reflects.

I also want to indicate to the Minister that for the day care subsidy policy that he has been delivering through his department, you must find a way to ensure that policy can address students in need and allow students to access this subsidy. It is difficult for students going to school having the added stress of day care, but being unable to access the day care subsidy...I think you may have to look at that subsidy program to ensure that it is somewhat modified to address the people in need.

Those are my basic general comments, Mr. Chairman, and I thank you.

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. Mr. Minister, there were some items in there that you may wish to comment on. Mr. Minister.

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Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

First of all, I thank the honourable Member, Mr. Patterson, who spoke earlier. I think the advice that has been given is very constructive and, collectively, I think we can bring together some solutions to the concerns that are being raised.

Just on the matter of child care that the honourable Member has raised, I would like to advise the honourable Member that that program is available to students. What they need to do is fill out the forms for the program. If the information is not being provided, I would be prepared to direct my staff to ensure that the students do receive the information. Right now, I believe that most campuses are in fact using the program. If there are problems in Thebacha or in any program that deals with our government, we would be prepared to respond as positively as possible. That doesn't mean, Mr. Chairman, we can provide all the support they may be requesting, but we can be responsive to the concerns the honourable Member has raised.

On the matter of instructors, I want to advise the honourable Members in this House that it is one of the areas that has been a concern to me. I have raised it with the department, with Arctic College, and it is an issue that is going to be addressed in the corporate plans of both colleges. I know that it is in the western plan for sure, but we still need some time to assess the plan so that we are satisfied, as a department, that it is responding to the program needs that are in the communities.

On the matter of accountability, I agree. I believe you will be quite satisfied with the legislation that will come before you.

On the matter of principals not being part of the union, we have not addressed that issue at this time, but we have put in place much more accountability on the part of the principal, to the point where they are no longer -- in one particular case -- considered part of the CEC as ex-officio officers but rather will be accountable to the community local boards. On an annual basis, they will have to meet and account for the directions of the school, so it will not be in the absence of the direction of the local community. That includes the whole issue of recruitment, as well. We are moving much further than before, but it may not be as far as the honourable Member wishes we have gone. I think I will be able to answer those questions when we deal with the legislation.

Mr. Chairman, I agree with the concern raised about short-term instructors and we will try to address it with the college president and the board and try to find a solution to that matter. I will report that matter to the honourable Member.