This is page numbers 793 - 819 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was services.

Topics

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for your opening comments. Does the Standing Committee on Finance

have some opening remarks? The chair recognizes the Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.

Standing Committee On Finance Comments

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96Committee Report 4-12(7): Report On The Review Of The 1995-96 Main Estimates
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Victims And Offenders

The key issue noted by committee Members in the review of this department was the apparent relative priorities of victims of crime and criminal offenders. The total spending on correctional centres and young offenders' facilities in 1995-96 is budgeted to increase more than 10 per cent from the 1994-95. Yet spending to assist victims of crime and those injured by criminal acts is being reduced due to the planned elimination of the criminal injuries compensation program.

The standing committee is concerned that these proposed changes give northerners the wrong message. The implication is that criminals are more important than victims; an implication strengthened by the observation that the total budgeted for victims' assistance in 1995-96 is less than two per cent of the expenditures budgeted for correctional centres and young offenders' facilities.

Committee Members feel that the Justice department has to re-evaluate its priorities. It is very expensive to imprison offenders; therefore, the department should be making every effort to use alternatives to imprisonment where possible. When the standing committee visited Iqaluit in September 1994, committee Members visited the Isumaqsunngittukkuvik Young Offenders Facility there, and also visited with local residents who provide on-the- land programs for young offenders. Members noted that the land-based programs were much less expensive on a per-offender basis, yet appeared to be more effective in rehabilitating young offenders and preventing them from offending again. This reinforces the idea that community-based solutions in the justice system are generally preferable to institutional solutions. While there are some offenders who must be imprisoned to protect the public, there are many more who will benefit more from rehabilitative community-based solutions than from southern-style jails. The committee prefers to see initiatives such as the plans for community-based corrections project that should help rehabilitate offenders, in their own communities where possible, and in a less expensive and more effective manner than in traditional correctional centres.

The proposed increase in funding to correctional centres and secure young offenders facilities is particularly upsetting when contrasted with the cuts in funding to assist victims. The committee feels strongly that the department must reassess the relative priorities of victims and offenders in their estimates.

Mr. Chairman, I have a recommendation here and a motion, at this time.

Committee Motion 34-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 5, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee recommends that the Department of Justice reallocate $300,000 in expenditures within the community justice and corrections activity, from correctional centres and young offenders facilities to the victims' assistance task; and further, that the funding for victims' assistance be integrated into the community wellness strategy. Thank you.

Committee Motion 34-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 5, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. There is a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Committee Motion 34-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 5, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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An Hon. Member

Question.

Committee Motion 34-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 5, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Question has been called. The chair does not recognize a quorum. I shall ring the bell. The chair now recognizes a quorum. We have a motion on the floor. Question has been called. All those in favour of the motion, please signify. All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 34-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 5, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A related issue is the department's recent announcement which suggests that a new facility for violent young offenders -- a subject of a committee recommendation -- will be built in Inuvik. Committee Members were surprised at this announcement. When the standing committee recommended that the department consider such a facility, they assumed that the department would appreciate the need for adequate support services to be available. Violent young offenders often have significant problems, such as: alcohol and drug abuse; sexual, physical or emotional abuse; psychological or psychiatric disorders; or learning disabilities. Effective rehabilitation will not occur without the resources necessary to address these problems being available to those in the facility. If such a facility is to be built, the department has to ensure that the necessary resources will be available in the NWT to assist the clients of that facility.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mr. Chairman, I have another motion here. I move that the committee recommends the Department of Justice evaluate the availability of psychological, psychiatric, alcohol and drug treatment, and counselling services for any proposed facility for violent young offenders in the NWT; and further, that the department submit a report on the availability of these services for such a facility to the Standing Committee on Finance of the 13th Legislative Assembly, prior to consideration of the department's capital plan during the review of the 1996-97 capital estimates.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. I have a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion. The chair recognizes the Member for Inuvik, Mr. Koe.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Fred Koe Inuvik

The preamble to the motion says that a new facility for violent young offenders will be built in Inuvik and then, the indication in the preamble is that these services are not available within Inuvik, from what I see here. I would just like to comment that for any facility, wherever they go, these things have to be done. So I am going to vote for the motion because it calls for an evaluation; but, for the record, I would like to assure Members that there are alcohol and drug counsellors, there are family violence counsellors, there are very adequate health and social service organizations in Inuvik that would support any correctional facility that would be built in Inuvik. Thank you.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Koe. To the motion.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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An Hon. Member

Question.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Question has been called. All those in favour, please signify. Thank you. All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Continue, Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Committee Members are also quite concerned that the announcement of this new facility, as well as similar announcements made by this department, have been made without consultation with Members, and before funds to proceed have been approved by the Assembly.

Finally, Members expressed a concern regarding the respective bureaucratic responsibility for victims' programs and for parolees and offenders on probation. Apparently, Social Services' staff still have the responsibility to deal with offenders on parole or probation. Yet the responsibility for handling victims' assistance is with the Department of Justice. The committee urges the Minister to discuss this issue with the Minister of Health and Social Services. Committee Members feel it would be more appropriate for Justice to retain responsibility for offenders in and out of jail, and for Social Services to take over the task of assisting victims of crime.

Police Services And First Nations Community Policing

In the meantime, the government should look at ways to enhance community-based policing. Programs such as Crimes Stoppers, Neighbourhood Watch, or police auxiliary organizations would allow citizens to remove some of the less specialized workload from police officers, as well as providing a stronger sense of community pride and protection among northern residents. The government should also consult with the RCMP and municipalities to consider options such as the provision of clerical staff to local RCMP offices, in order to permit RCMP officers to focus more of their time and attention on actual police work.

The committee is pleased to see the progress of the First Nations community policing initiative. Pilot projects in Coral Harbour and Fort Good Hope are demonstrating that community-based policing, with assistance from the RCMP, can be a more effective and efficient foundation for providing police services to northerners. Committee Members look forward to seeing the final evaluation of these pilot projects.

That is the Standing Committee on Finance report, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Minister would you please take the witness chair so we may deal with your department? Do you require witnesses to assist you? You do, thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms. Mr. Minister, would you be so kind as to introduce your witnesses to the committee.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, on my right the deputy minister of Justice, Don Avison. On my left, Louise Dundas Matthews, director of finance and administration, Department of Justice.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Welcome, Ms. Matthews and Mr. Avison. General comments. The chair recognizes the Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Antoine.

General Comments

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The committee report has been out for some time now and everybody has had a chance to look at the recommendations that are in there. There are two from this department. The first recommendation recommends that the Department of Justice reallocate $300,000 in expenditures within the community justice and corrections activity from corrections centres and young offenders' facilities to the victims assistance task. And further, that the funding for victims assistance be integrated into the community wellness strategy.

That is the recommendation that the committee made and it was passed here, in committee of the whole, just a little while ago. The social envelope supp budget was $3.2 million, that was also set aside for this department as well as other departments in that social envelope committee. I would like to ask the Minister if this recommendation was taken by the department and if anything was done to accommodate the intention of this recommendation. Thank you.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Minister Kakfwi.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The budget that we have for corrections is very sufficient to meet the needs within the area. It's not possible for me to suggest that I can do that. If the committee is agreeable, the suggestion I have is, once the social envelope committee starts to take more concrete measures in making better use of existing dollars and establishing the community action fund, there would be a lot of money placed before this government and the social action organizations, the women's organizations and other organizations mandated with dealing with these kinds of issues and they can decide what amount of money should be allocated to victims' services.

We can certainly pass the recommendation on to them and see if these groups would be agreeable to that. Certainly, I would see it as the political direction on my behalf to suggest that they at least put $300,000 towards victims' services but the whole idea of the community action fund, when we do set it up with a budget, would be to give discretion to the groups to decide how to make best use of money we would allocate to them. Thank you.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments. The chair continues to recognize Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

The Minister is indicating that he is not going to follow the recommendation of the Standing Committee on Finance. The preamble is quite clear, we are saying that there has been a real cut into assisting victims of crime. We see a large increase in expenditures in justice and correctional services and a real decrease in assistance to victims. We don't want to delete this amount from the justice and corrections activity, but we would like to see if we could reallocate these funds to another task in the department, the victims' assistance task. This is what we're requesting.

I'd like to get a definitive answer from the Minister if that is at all possible. We're serious about this. We may have to deal with these tasks at a later time until we get some definitive answers. I would like to try one more time to see if the Minister would reconsider, if his department can look at this recommendation seriously to see if they can accommodate the recommendation of the Standing Committee on Finance. Thank you.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, the recommendation that the committee made was taken seriously. We have been looking at it and discussing it for a number of weeks now, trying to find some way to meet the recommendation. It seems the committee is going around the edge, almost telling us how to manage our respective departments. If the intent is simply to increase the resources allocated to victims' services, then it is something that I agree totally with. If there was a possible way of finding additional money to do that, we would, but, as Members see, almost all additional, new money has gone to forced growth.

All the additional person years and money allocated to corrections is simply going to help the existing staff. One additional person per shift is being put into existing facilities. There are three shifts per day working in these facilities, like the Yellowknife Correctional Centre, the Iqaluit correctional facility, the Hay River facility, the River Ridge facility, among others. What we've done is responded to a review that suggested we were understaffed. For the well-being of inmates, staff and general safety of everyone concerned, it was recommended that we increase the staff allocation. This is what has been done here.

To suggest that we could somehow reduce here is just not possible. Again, I suggest that we simply take the recommendation and tell the committee we will do what we can over the next few months to ensure that some resources are allocated to victims' services, and that where it will come from be left to the discretion of this government. As Minister, I don't have the responsibility to do that, but with other Ministers from the social envelope committee, I'm sure we can meet the call of the standing committee.

It's not going to happen and I understand that if they're unhappy with my response, they will stand me down until the end of this session, or whatever. I think we should just have a discussion about it and come to grips with the fact that there is no new money. Reallocating from areas like this which are highly legislated, where we have just started to move towards giving RCMP sufficient money to do their job the way they're contracted to do and where we're moving to more proper staff allocations, as required by legislation, is just not possible.

I think in the matter of a month or two, surely we can take that as the first commandment once we set up the community action fund and, secondly, as a direction to this government and to the Ministers of the social envelope committee as to where we should allocate some of those resources. We can recommend to our partners, the women's groups and other organizations involved in this work with us. Thank you.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Minister Kakfwi. I have the Premier next on the list. Madam Premier.