This is page numbers 793 - 819 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was services.

Topics

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 813

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to add some of the discussions we had in the social envelope committee meetings. As the Members know, with the new turnover of the social welfare dollars to the Department of Education and a different process there, what we see is the social workers who are not presently available will have significantly more time to do the job that they are trained to do. As a result, what we see is that these social workers could have additional training to counsel and assist victims of crime which, from time to time, they are doing already in certain communities. It would be a much cleaner mandate or job function of the social worker to take on this function. This is one of the ways we thought this can be taken care of; by taking the time that the social workers had been using to evaluate people's income and doing needs assessments to put out welfare cheques. This will not be part of their function any longer so they will have that time allocation, which we discussed as an envelope committee, to be available to do that speciality in terms of assisting victims of crime. This is one of the areas that we feel a significant role being changed or being identified as important.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 813

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Madam Premier, for that information. The chair recognizes Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 813

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to make a general comment on this recommendation number 5. The idea here is to try to get additional help to the victims' assistance task and this department, by allocating the $300,000 from the activity of justice and corrections. This funding should be integrated into the community wellness strategy. This is a recommendation that the committee would prefer to see happen but the Minister is indicating that the funding level in the justice and corrections activity is forced growth and cannot be changed. Maybe later on in a few months or so, they might figure out how to accommodate this recommendation but what I would like to see here is a more solid commitment, so that we would know for sure that there's going to be something there to accommodate this recommendation. If we could have something now. I think it looks like there's nothing there right now except a promise to look at it in the next two or three months. I would certainly like to see something come out of this session to accommodate this recommendation. I don't want to have any surprises here so I think that as we have our discussion and general comments, and as we get into the activities that deal with that, I would like to let the Minister know that the Members of the committee have indicated that they would seriously consider deferring that activity until later on in the process, to see if we could have some time between now and then to get something more concrete out of this recommendation. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 813

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. I shall defer to Madam Premier.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 813

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Chairman, we are fully in concert with the Standing Committee on Finance recommendations and also their explanation. We had thought that we were in concert in getting that assistance to victims of crime. At the beginning of page 28, the Standing Committee on Finance said, "Yet the responsibility for handling victims' assistance is with the Department of Justice. The committee urges the Minister to discuss this issue with the Minister of Health and Social Services. Committee Members feel it would be more appropriate for Justice to retain responsibilities for offenders in and out of jail and for Social Services to take over the task of assisting victims of crime."

Mr. Chairman, we've had that discussion and it was previously on the agenda. We feel that because the social workers under the Department of Social Services will no longer have much of their time taken up on tasks that have been turned over to the Department of Education, we would be able to offer training and support to go along with the recommendation of the Standing Committee on Finance. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 813

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Madam Premier. Just for the record, I will indicate that the Minister indicated that I should defer to the Premier. I didn't do this on my own. General comments. The chair recognizes the Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 813

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Like the chairman of SCOF, I, too, would like to see some certainty come out of our discussions today that we are going to be able to address this issue. I know that the Minister of Justice has said in a Minister's statement that he recognizes the importance of the volunteers who provide the victims' assistance programs. As I pointed out to him, if we can't find some more money for them, there won't be any volunteers to thank. I think that we really do want to see, whether it's from the Minister of Justice or from the Minister of Health and Social Services, a commitment that this issue will be dealt with. It's not enough for us to hear the Minister of Justice say that with other Ministers he hopes that he will be able to come to grips with the recommendations of SCOF. I think we're looking for it to be put much more strongly than that. We can't be satisfied

that once the community action fund is set up, perhaps a result of the discussions will be that the victims assistance programs will be dealt with.

The Premier's comments give me some concern as well because I don't think we can free up enough people in Social Services to provide the amount of service that is necessary and that we are getting for the dollars that we spend now. I don't know if the Premier is aware that 3,197 hours were donated by volunteers in Yellowknife alone in 1994 to provide victims' assistance. Mr. Chairman, that's more than 3.5 PYs if they were to be taken in full-time equivalents. I'm not sure that by giving the responsibility for distribution of social assistance to Education, Culture and Employment, we're going to free up 3.5 PYs to replace those volunteers who will disappear if we can't find a way to ensure funding for them.

In Fort Smith, at least one full PY was donated in terms of the hours of time donated. Is the Premier saying that in Health and Social Services we're going to be able to, by handing on SA to ECE in Fort Smith, devote one full-time position to assisting the victims of crime? I think it's got to be remembered that more than half of the referrals in all of the programs in operation in the territories now are for either child sexual abuse or adult sexual assault. Those are the areas in which we're not often getting the victims to come forward as competent witnesses because of the trauma. Without adequate support, quite often their cases are not resulting in convictions. I think it's extremely important that we recognize the value of what this government gets from volunteers. While it is good to say that we may be able to assist these programs by increasing social workers' time, there is no way that this government can afford to replace the amount of volunteer work that it is presently being provided in Fort Smith, Rankin Inlet, Yellowknife and Iqaluit.

We need to find some way to expand the program to other communities; to support it in those communities where it is operating now and to expand it. Volunteers will do the job for far less than what government workers can afford to. They need the support and assistance of government workers, but we have to recognize the true value of the work that is being provided here.

I'm pleased to hear the Premier say that she is totally in concert with our recommendation, but I don't believe it can be addressed simply by the time that the social workers will now have because they're not handing out social assistance. I think what we really want to hear is a very strong statement by one of these two Ministers to indicate that we will find some way to deal with this very serious concern of the committee. Without hearing that sort of commitment, I think it does make it difficult for us to continue on with this consideration. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Does the Minister want to respond? Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, we've had meetings with the volunteers and staff who work with victims' services and have told them that the money we have allocated to them is all there is. There is a real sense that the federal government is reducing their commitment in this area as well since most of these centres also receive a portion of their funding from the federal government. We have no idea how much they're being cut.

There is a sense, as well, that a number of other areas are going to be cut. For instance, this government has been served notice by the federal Minister that the cost-sharing agreement for young offenders has been effectively terminated, with a view that we should renegotiate a new funding agreement. It doesn't mean additional federal money, it means the federal government wants to reduce the amount they contribute under the program.

We have said that we would try to find some way, through social envelope committee work, to make better use of existing dollars and to turn over how the existing dollars should be best allocated by getting advice from community-based organizations which Mr. Dent is referring to. Our job now is to bring the recommendations of this committee to the social envelope committee, take it as direction to work with women's groups and victims' services centres and suggest where some of the money from the community action fund should be allocated and, as well, other resources that this government has.

The federal government is not thinking about expanding this program, they're pulling out of it. Mr. Dent has got to realize that it's a huge commitment to even think about funding in part, victims' service centres right across the territories. We're having difficulties just maintaining four and, even there, the federal government is withdrawing services. At a time when the entire budget of the territorial government is being reduced and being picked away, program by program, by the federal government, we can't even think about suggesting expansion of these programs. At best, we're trying to find ways to maintain what we have now. We're trying to do that without demoralizing the volunteers and the people who commit to working in these victims' services centres. Thank you.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 814

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments. The chair recognizes Mr. Dent.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 814

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just for the record, I have already said that the federal government is wrong to have walked away from funding these programs and there is no excuse for them having done that. I have also said there is no excuse for us to walk away from them either. I do recognize how difficult it would be to expand the programs. Most of these programs already try to cover areas outside of their principal community so I think it's important to make sure that what we have, which is working right now, is given enough to ensure they can continue to do their work and succeed.

I hear from people in my constituency all the time that they feel that, too often, the victims are forgotten. We always seem to come up with money to live up to our statutory requirements when it comes to dealing with offenders. I guess I would just have to say, like our adoption of zero tolerance for violence policy, we have to live up to this government's commitment to victims, which it signed in 1988. If we're not going to live up to that, then I think the government should make a statement saying that it's not going to live up to it because it can't afford to.

The Minister of Justice told me last week that all of our principles are now subject to review because of fiscal pressure. Well, if the principle of the support for victims is one that has had to be reviewed, then let's be up front about it. Let's hear out in the open that it is up for review and that perhaps we've been found wanting for money to ensure the principle can be upheld.

Mr. Chairman, I think that the amount of money that the Standing Committee on Finance is recommending be put into these programs is not a tremendous amount, given the size of the territorial budget and given the size of the budgets of even the social envelope departments. I still maintain that there should be some way for us to get a stronger commitment than what we have so far today from the government to work with victims' assistance programs, to ensure they get adequate funding and support to continue to do their valuable work through the next year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 815

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent. General comments. I'm sorry, did you wish to respond, Mr. Minister? Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, again, I say that I cannot do what has been specifically recommended by the Standing Committee on Finance; that is, I cannot take it from corrections. I will commit that I will do what I can, as a Minister, to see an amount of money in the neighbourhood of $300,000 be allocated to victims' services over the next few months, within the next month or next week. It depends on the work of the social envelope. It isn't an insignificant amount of money, since we are spending a great deal of time debating it.

Just to illustrate the point, we could take it from policing for Yellowknife. That means three RCMP positions. So it isn't an insignificant amount.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

(Microphone turned off)

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 815

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

I think $300,000 is a sizable amount of money at this time. It illustrates the point that there are increasingly diminishing resources. The best approach is the one to do it in concert with the organizations that we have gone in partnership with and recommend to them. There is no doubt that we will, as a government, suggest to them that some of the community action fund should be allocated to victims' services. Thank you.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 815

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments. Mr. Dent.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 815

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am a little bit offended by the Minister making a cheap shot and suggesting that he could perhaps move the funding out of policing for Yellowknife in order to pay for this. I don't think that at any time I have indicated that I don't understand that in order to put money in one area, you may have to cut in another. It is unseemly to start putting it into a constituency-versus-constituency manner the way the Minister just has. I think that it is the Minister's responsibility to work with his budget to ensure that adequate services are provided throughout the territories. I just wanted to point out that it is not necessary for us to have to listen to an implied threat that if a Member asks questions about an issue, that something may be withdrawn from their constituency. Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to put that on the record.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 815

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Dent. I would caution Members to carefully tailor their comments to each other, so that we don't misunderstand each other. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, I intended no offence to the good Members for Yellowknife. I was trying to illustrate a point. Thank you.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 815

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments. I had Mr. Ballantyne and then Mr. Patterson.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 815

Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister could tell us how many reported incidents there were in the last two years of child sexual abuse.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ballantyne. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, I don't have that information in front of me.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Ballantyne.

Committee Motion 35-12(7): To Adopt Recommendation 6, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Would the Minister make that information available to this committee?