This is page numbers 1250 - 1278 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Topics

Bill 32: An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act, No. 2
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, unless Members have questions on the bill that are going to require legal counsel, that wouldn't be necessary. But, perhaps to save time, we should bring in legal counsel so we are prepared in case there is a question.

Bill 32: An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act, No. 2
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Do we have the concurrence of the committee that the honourable Member may bring in a witness?

---Agreed

Bill 32: An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act, No. 2
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Sergeant-at-arms, please bring in the Witness.

Thank you. For the record, Mr. Dent, please introduce your witness.

Bill 32: An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act, No. 2
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With me today, I have our Law Clerk of the Assembly, Sheila MacPherson.

Bill 32: An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act, No. 2
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Welcome to the committee, Ms. MacPherson. We're dealing with Bill 32. Are there any general comments on the bill?

Bill 32: An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act, No. 2
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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An Hon. Member

Clause by clause.

Clause By Clause

Bill 32: An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act, No. 2
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Clause by clause has been requested. We will go clause by clause. Clause 1.

Bill 32: An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act, No. 2
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 32: An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act, No. 2
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Clause 2. Ms. Mike.

Bill 32: An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act, No. 2
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I already asked the same question about the way section 6(2) is written, regarding the last few words "punishable on summary conviction." It doesn't say "only pertaining to." Can the interpretation be taken, if Bill C-68 is passed in the Parliament, that this section can be used on people who have been convicted under that law?

Bill 32: An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act, No. 2
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Bill 32: An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act, No. 2
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, perhaps we should have legal counsel confirm this but section 6(2), as I understand it, is simply restating the situation as it currently exists. In other words, right now this Legislature has the inherent right to discipline Members for any reason. I think that is what section 6(2) is restating; that, in fact, a Legislature always has the right to discipline its Members.

If a Legislature were to choose to discipline a Member for a breach of Bill C-68, then the Legislature could do that. But that could happen, Mr. Chairman, if we pass Bill 32 or not.

Bill 32: An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act, No. 2
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Acting Law Clerk Ms. Stewart

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I might perhaps clarify a bit, I believe the honourable Member is referring to section 6.1.(2) which refers to where a Member, after his or her election, is convicted of an offence under the Criminal Code punishable on summary conviction. Clause (a) and clause (b) quality which offences it is that the bill is referring to. It is only referring to those two offences in that provision, so it would not include offences pursuant to Bill C-68 or any other federal or territorial legislation. Those would have to be caught, as Mr. Dent has said, under (c) jurisdiction in 6.2.

Bill 32: An Act To Amend The Legislative Assembly And Executive Council Act, No. 2
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Clause 2. Member for Thebacha.

Committee Motion 59-12(7): To Amend Clause 2 Of Bill 32, Defeated
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, I would like to move a motion with regard to clause 2. Mr. Chairman, I move that clause 2 of Bill 32 be amended by

(a) striking out that portion of proposed subsection 6.1.(1) immediately preceding paragraph (a) and by substituting the following:

A member shall not be or sit as a member if, after his or her election, the Member is found guilty of and is convicted or discharged of an offence under the Criminal Code prosecuted by indictment.

(b) striking out that portion of proposed subsection 6.1.(2) immediately preceding paragraph (a) and by substituting the following:

Where a member, after his or her election, is found guilty of and is convicted or discharged of an offence under the Criminal Code punishable on summary conviction.

Committee Motion 59-12(7): To Amend Clause 2 Of Bill 32, Defeated
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. I will pause momentarily until each and every Member gets a copy of the motion. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Patterson.

Committee Motion 59-12(7): To Amend Clause 2 Of Bill 32, Defeated
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

June 11th, 1995

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to request, through you, in order to assist the committee, if it might be explained to us under what typical circumstances a person might be discharged of an offence under the Criminal Code. Thank you.

Committee Motion 59-12(7): To Amend Clause 2 Of Bill 32, Defeated
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Legal counsel.

Committee Motion 59-12(7): To Amend Clause 2 Of Bill 32, Defeated
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Acting Law Clerk Ms. Stewart

The provisions relating to discharge are set out in the Criminal Code. A court has to enter into an examination and then make a determination that it is in the best interest of the accused person, and not contrary to the public interest, to grant either an absolute discharge or a discharge on conditions set out in a probation order. Those are the guiding parameters. Generally, a court will look at each case on an individual basis, determine the gravity of the offence, the effect and impact on the person, the impact on the victim of the offence, and make a determination.

Committee Motion 59-12(7): To Amend Clause 2 Of Bill 32, Defeated
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

To the motion. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 59-12(7): To Amend Clause 2 Of Bill 32, Defeated
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before Mr. Patterson starts to speak, I would like to explain the intent of the motion. The intent of the motion is to look after individuals or Members who may be found guilty of sexual exploitation of children or violence against a person. Someone may be found guilty, go to court and be granted a conditional discharge. I think the intent of this motion is to ensure that if a Member is found guilty and granted a conditional discharge, they will still have to resign as a Member. This is going to address all issues of violence against a person, threatened or attempted, and also address Members found guilty of an offence under the Criminal Code involving sexual exploitation of children. That is the intent of amending this bill to ensure that any

Member found guilty of an offence is going to have to resign. Thank you.

Committee Motion 59-12(7): To Amend Clause 2 Of Bill 32, Defeated
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Ballantyne.

Committee Motion 59-12(7): To Amend Clause 2 Of Bill 32, Defeated
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Ballantyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have been a strong supporter of this bill. I have been a strong supporter of the philosophy which is contained in this bill, protecting women and children from violence. In committee, I moved the amendments which added sexual exploitation of children to the list of offences, and other amendments which protected the integrity of the Legislative Assembly in carrying out their mandate to be able to punish their own Members. What we did, I thought, was an amazing evolution in the discussion of this bill. We finally built a consensus between the government, ordinary Members, the women's organizations who appeared in front of the committee and from the letters I and other Members have received from many of the organizations out there who supported this bill.

I think this bill, in reality, is more symbolic than anything else because probably 95 per cent of offences will be covered now. If someone goes to jail, they will lose their seat. We are setting an example and I think the fact that we have gained this consensus is very important. It really means that the mind-set of the political leaders of the Northwest Territories has evolved and moved forward. There is a growing consensus out there in the Northwest Territories that violence won't be tolerated.

However, with this amendment, it leaves questions which make me a bit uncomfortable. As legal counsel explained, the situation where a conditional discharge can take place is only done under fairly careful scrutiny by a judge. A judge has the responsibility to ensure that it won't have a negative impact on that society.

Originally in this debate, some Members of the Legislative Assembly and Members of the public were a bit worried about the net that we were casting and that there might be circumstances which we can't anticipate where an MLA may find themselves trapped by the letter of the law and may actually lose their job when the public can think that that wasn't required.

What I see happening here is that it is taking a bit of flexibility. II there are extenuating circumstances and a court grants an absolute discharge, then there might be cases where it shouldn't be automatic. We should be careful getting into this area because it is murky under law.

I agree that sexual exploitation of children, even with an absolute discharge, probably in 99 per cent of the cases, Members should still be thrown out. However, we still have that power fight now. Another thing --and I think Mr. Lewis brought this up --is now that we have talked about this, the public is going to demand that we do our jobs.

So I was satisfied with the work that Mr. Dent did, that the committee did and that the organizations around the territories have done. I think we have made a very good and strong first step in support of the zero tolerance for violence. I hesitate, at this point, to go ahead with this amendment. I understand what the Member is trying to achieve, but I won't be able to support this amendment, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much.

Committee Motion 59-12(7): To Amend Clause 2 Of Bill 32, Defeated
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Patterson.

Committee Motion 59-12(7): To Amend Clause 2 Of Bill 32, Defeated
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think I am in a similar quandary to that just expressed by Mr. Ballantyne. I once was a practising criminal lawyer and I do know, from time to time, there are cases where the facts produce the technical evidence of guilt, but the circumstances are truly exceptional. This does happen rarely, but it does happen. This is why the Parliament of Canada, in its wisdom, has given judges some discretion to convict but order an absolute or conditional discharge. So I do believe that we are setting a very high standard if we approve the amendment of the Member. There will be virtually no exceptions under any circumstances.

So, Mr. Chairman, I have some foreboding that there may, in very exceptional circumstances, a miscarriage of a certain amount of unfairness that might occur.

I am comforted, however, when I realize that an MLA who lost his or her seat in such circumstances would still have the right to run again for public office. So in a circumstance, let's say an act of violence that was committed under extreme provocation, which is never an excuse for violence but does explain some kinds of human behaviour, given that we are all imperfect mortals, then the constituents would ultimately be able to judge whether the penalty of loss of seat was appropriate. So that comforts me, Mr. Chairman.

The second thing I think could happen, if we don't pass this amendment, is I can see defence lawyers saying to judges, in speaking to sentence, that the penalty imposed by the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act, the loss of a Member's seat, would far outweigh any penalty that the court might ordinarily impose, let's say for a first-time offender on a crime of common assault.

Mr. Chairman, I do believe that this severe penalty which we have placed in our legislation for very good reason, because of the high standards increasingly expected of us by the public and because of our own declaration of zero tolerance... I believe it would cause judges to otherwise use the absolute or conditional discharge so as to spare a person from the severe penalties that would be triggered by a conviction without a discharge by the provisions of the Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Act.

I think a lot of people who would be before the courts would have these severe penalties recited by a counsel in speaking to sentence and the judge might then order a conditional or an absolute discharge; creating, in effect, a loophole that probably would not seem desirable in some circumstances. Mr. Chairman, after having weighed the pros and cons, ultimately, what sways me is that people will ultimately decide whether a Member should lose his or her seat given that the Member has an opportunity to run for re-election in the subsequent by-election that would be held. With that safeguard in mind, that ultimately the judgement will be given by the constituents and not by a court, I'm prepared to support the amendment but I think we should go in with our eyes open knowing that this sets up an extremely high standard for future MLAs. There will really be no room for exceptional circumstances, no room for looking at the interests of the accused. This will be a very high standard. I think we should vote on this amendment knowing that we're setting an extremely high standard for future Members of this Assembly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.