This is page numbers 1311 - 1340 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was education.

Topics

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1330

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Koe.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1331

Fred Koe Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have some comments I would like to make, for the record. I made some comments the other day about the committee report and I would like, in some cases, to expand on those.

The general comments I have concern subjects throughout the act and I also have comments and questions dealing with specific clauses, which I will raise at the appropriate times. In Monday's issue of the Globe and Mail, there was an article called "Clipped Wings Beyond Bandaging," an article about the education system today, and I tabled this article today because there are some quite relevant comments made in it. A question is asked in this article: "How in 20 or 30 years have we gone from having a very good educational system to having a very poor one, a system in which the teachers long for retirement and students long for escape?" The article also states:

"We need to begin again, to re-eroticize learning. Everything needs to be put on the table: the question of core curriculum; school uniforms; sports; alternatives to schools, not just alternative schools; inflated grading; "dumbsizing;" a carnival atmosphere; and, the need for historical perspective and critical thinking. Patching the dike won't work. The leaks now threaten not only the system, spawned-mall bunnies and space cadets, but the vivacious and vigorous who, every day, become a little more enervated and defeated. Without intellectual stimulation and demanding standards for achievement, we will lose more and more of our young to sloth and sluggishness."

I find a lot of these statements very valid and I raise them because we are dealing with an act which is one component -- mind you, probably the most important component -- dealing with our education system. The act will provide the laws and rules which will govern our education system in the north. Another key component of this, which ties into the act, are the regulations. The regulations will provide the detail on how the various provisions of the act will work. However, these are only a few of the components which need to be reviewed. If we put everything on the table, then we have to do that and we have to do it properly.

Many of the aboriginal groups have cautioned us not to proceed too quickly, to make sure that what we're doing is appropriate and fight, to not pass the bill because it is expedient to do so or politically correct to do so, so Members can leave and begin their campaigns. I agree with these people. We have to take our time and we have to ensure that the new bill that we pass will meet the test of time and the needs of our education system.

Everything must be reviewed and evaluated for our system to be revitalized. I hope this bill is only the start and, once the new act comes into force, with the proper regulations developed by northerners, that we continue to examine and change our education system to meet the needs of all our residents. There are many strategies under way, not only with our basic education system from K-12, but our post-secondary institutions are also working on strategies and plans. The sooner that these are finished, the more comprehensive the whole system will be. Just completing a strategy or plan doesn't mean it's over and everything is fixed. It doesn't work that way, but at least it gives us proper guidelines and mechanisms to deal with ongoing changes to our system.

I would like to comment a bit on excellence in education. I was always under the assumption that this Assembly had adopted a principle to strive for excellence in education and to make this work, we should be establishing standards for excellence across the Northwest Territories. All students across the north should receive the same number of instructional hours in school, so that no one, depending where they are, gets short-changed.

We also have to ensure that the quality of our educators and curriculum material are of the highest standards. I have always had a concern about students who come from the smaller communities and go to our regional high schools, and we hear that many of these students aren't ready for the higher grades. Therefore, instead of pursuing academic studies, many students are shuffled into general studies, which are supposed to be easier.

I also believe that many of our community schools do not or cannot provide a full range of course options for students which will give them the basis for achieving academic success in high school. Students have a right to pursue academic studies and they should be encouraged to do so.

Today, our education system seems to focus on statistics and numbers. We always quote that we have so many students in our system. We say that we have so many graduates. But we also have to ask these questions. What are these graduates doing? Where are they going? What is their success ratio in post-secondary institutions? What jobs are they going into? There are many ways of measuring success, but we also have to focus on the quality of the students which we put through our system.

Another concern of mine, which I believe has an impact on striving for excellence in education, is the concept of age appropriate placement of students. I believe this means that students are being automatically advanced to the next grade level because of their age, not because of their academic achievements. I believe that this is the norm across the Northwest Territories. I don't know why. I don't believe this is in the current act and it is definitely not in the new act. So I don't know where that concept has come from and why all the schools seem to follow this so rigidly.

It is almost impossible to achieve excellence in education if we continue this practice where hardly anyone tails. We hear that students are advancing grade by grade and have trouble reading, writing and doing arithmetic. Mr. Chairman, this has to change. Students have to be pushed and encouraged to succeed and there should be mechanisms to measure success. We cannot do this only when students write exams at grade 9 or grade 12 levels. It has to start at grade 1.

Mr. Chairman, my time is up, but I seek consent to continue.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1331

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. The honourable Member for lnuvik is asking consent to continue. Agreed?

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1331

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1331

The Chair John Ningark

Continue, Mr. Koe.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1332

Fred Koe Inuvik

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make some comments on treaty and aboriginal rights. There have been many comments made about the issues of treaty and aboriginal rights, as they pertain to education. I don't think enough can be said about these issues because someday, somewhere, they are going to have to be resolved. Until then, I, for one, and I am sure my colleague beside me is going to continue to raise these concerns.

The basic concept for education is that all aboriginal people have a right to free education. That includes post-secondary education. The Standing Committee on Legislation, in their report, mentioned, and I quote: "Until treaty and other aboriginal rights are clearly defined, there is no way to include it in this act. To try to include it would imply a resolution and definition of these education rights, which is not the case." Mr. Chairman, I believe that all people who are impacted agree that it is a federal fiduciary responsibility to provide education to aboriginal people, especially treaty and Inuit people.

However, the contentious issue in the Northwest Territories is that the federal government transfers money for education to the Government of the Northwest Territories. I believe -- and I could be corrected here -- by accepting this money, the Government of the Northwest Territories then takes over responsibilities for educating aboriginal people in the north. Therefore, I can't buy the argument that people continue to use that it is only a federal jurisdictional issue. I believe by

accepting the money and the responsibility, that we also have to accept some of the jurisdictional issues that go with it. Reference is made in the preamble to the act, which refers to the rights and freedoms of aboriginal people, as set out in section 35 of the Constitution of 1982. However, I still don't believe that just by making that reference it goes far enough. The Government of the Northwest Territories cannot abrogate its responsibilities for providing programs and services to aboriginal people.

This government should be actively supporting aboriginal people in their negotiations and in their fight with our federal government to define and to agree on what aboriginal and treaty rights are. This government must be front and centre in supporting organizations who are in negotiating treaties, self-government or regional governments. Their position must be made public and must be followed by all government Ministers and employees.

There are still several concerns about the wording in the preamble. I have several questions which I would like clarified when we do get to the preamble. Do the words in the preamble include modern treaties or land claim agreements?Are our future agreements -- the ones that are presently being negotiated -- going to be included? Does section 35 of the Canadian Charter cover all of these?

There are many references in the act, especially where it pertains to the levying of fees and charges. This is one area that causes aboriginal people concern because we always believe that we have an inherent right to free education. Eventually, if this act is passed, then clarification is required as to whether any of the respective sections of the act contravene the agreements or intentions as laid out in treaties 8 and 11 or any of the land claim agreements. This issue has to be brought forward, as a majority of our population are aboriginal people.

Mr. Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to raise these concerns and I'll now take a break to allow my colleagues to take their turn. Mahsi.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1332

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you for the promotion. I am not a speaker. I am a chairman. Thank you. General comments. Do we have general comments? Mr. Minister.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1333

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

I guess the article that the honourable Member read sounded like a teacher who had runout of work or something -- I am not sure if that was the case -- because the fact is that the article that the honourable Member read was actually an article that was written by a teacher in Hamilton, Ontario.

I just want to say to him that some of the issues are important to consider, but they have to be considered in the context of the people you are serving, because you have a situation where the community and the circumstances in which we work have changed so dramatically that some of the issues have to be dealt with, not only in terms of critical thinking but in the ability of young people to operate in the technology that is now available to us. It puts a lot more pressure, I think, on students today than was probably the case for us.

I appreciate the comments that the honourable Member has made. I just want to say a couple of things. I agree on the matter of the standards. Just so that the honourable Member and Members are aware, that is, I think, one of the reasons we had an opportunity, with the Ministers of Education, to review the whole matter of a consistent curriculum across the country. There is a real need for us to be able to allow our students to go from one jurisdiction to the other without necessarily hindering them. In other words, it should not be difficult for a student from the Northwest Territories to go to British Columbia, or for a student from British Columbia to go to Newfoundland. There have been so many inconsistencies across the country that it's caused more problems for our students in terms of trying to move back and forth.

The other important component with that particular review of curriculum is to ensure that we have high standards in this country. I think that one of the problems that we have had, and I think the honourable Member has again pointed out, is the whole issue of trying to ensure that the standards are high and will allow our students to be able to enter into universities and enter into training programs without necessarily losing time as a result of their quality of education. So I agree with the honourable Member on the concern with regard to standards. I think it's a concern across the country.

Just on a couple of issues, though. I do want to say that I think, despite the fact that we may want a consistent and standard curriculum across this country, communities also have differing requirements. All we have to do is look at the whole matter of the Dene Kede curriculum where, in a historical sense or a traditional sense, we, as aboriginal people, want our children to understand our educational system and those things we have learned as adults growing up in our communities; the kinds of interpretations we give to science, our relationships with each other and our spiritual nature.

Those have to be provided in the context of ensuring that those children have the capacity to operate in this modern world. In other words, there is no need for us to teach traditional education if they are unable to use a computer or unable to communicate with a community outside their own community.

So, in that context, there is a lot of work on our pad to bring together those two situations. My only view in that situation is that we, as a jurisdiction, probably lead most other provinces and territories in this area, and I think, from a quality perspective, we should be very proud of our own aboriginal people who are leading this area. I think the support that the honourable Member and Members in this House have given to the matter of more aboriginal teachers and more northern teachers who understand the north and the people, will only offer us a better and more optimistic future.

The honourable Member raised the issue of quality. I don't have a problem with it. I think that quality of education is necessary. The whole matter of excellence is always a matter of subjectivity. It is always a matter of measuring.

It also requires parents. If parents aren't interested in their children being part of the educational system and encourage them to go to school, then it makes it more difficult. I know the

Member, who has taken a serious interest in the education of his own children and takes seriously the issue of education generally, understands how important it is for parents to play an important role. That hasn't always been the case, but I think that raising the profile of education will help that.

One other last point, Mr. Chairman. I know it becomes very difficult to deal with the whole issue of treaty and aboriginal rights. There are two elements to the debate.

One, the argument that has been put forward by aboriginal and treaty people generally is that it is really none of the business of the territorial government to explicitly define their rights as they might exist, whether or not it's through claims agreements or the redefinition of treaties.

As an aboriginal person, my personal position, and it should be quite clear, is that I don't have a problem supporting the views of the aboriginal people in that context, but it can't be that, we define it and then are told that we are not a party to the agreement. The fact is, in my view, it really is an issue between the federal government and the aboriginal people. In the context of saying that they have rights, without question, this government has said that we support that. Our problem right now, it I could, Mr. Chairman, is that we have a very difficult time trying to be more explicit in what those rights are, but we do agree that they exist, and the issues should not only be contained in the legislation itself but also in the context of the policies that we develop.

The concern of the Member on post-secondary education, we have agreed and are obligated to live up to the general policies of Indian Affairs and have, in fact, exceeded that, but it's our belief that we must, at the very least, maintain our commitment to the students.

The other component that we still must have clarification on is on the role of the federal government providing additional resources, because we have been placed in a position where, as a result of federal policies, we now have to assume the responsibility of all status Indians and Inuit across the country who were originally from here. Previously, they assumed the responsibility in the provinces. So we are now being forced into assuming that responsibility without the necessary additional resources to implement that. But that was a matter of public policy and it makes it very difficult.

Just so that the honourable Member is aware of these factors, I think, in committing to the honourable Member and aboriginal people our support, these are factors that really have to be considered in the discussion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1333

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Minister. General Comments. Mr. Koe.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1333

Fred Koe Inuvik

Qujannamiik, Mr. Chairman. I have just a few more general comments. In the preamble it is advocated that and delivery of education. This concept has been an underlying principle of this Assembly; to transfer programs and services to communities, to encourage communities to take responsibility, take charge of delivering and have ownership of these programs and services. However, some real concerns which override this act are the powers and authorities of the

Minister; the whole issue of centralizing more and more powers to the Minister is in contrast to trying to devolve more powers to communities and regions. The Standing Committee on Legislation stated in their report, and I quote: "The many references to ministerial authority did not seem consistent with the partnership approach and increased local authority cited in the preamble."

Mr. Chairman, saying that, there have been a lot of amendments and changes already made to this act to reduce the powers of the Minister and, for these, I am pleased that they were made. The real issue that I am making is that, as much as possible, the powers, responsibilities and authorities should be given to local or regional education bodies. When the time comes for bands and Metis locals to get involved or regional governments, this theme should be practised and then encouraged. We have to encourage local community organizations to take responsibility for programs.

I would like to make a few comments on regulations. It has been mentioned many times by Members of this House and many of the presenters that we heard, that the development of the regulations is very important. They will provide the details of how the provisions in the act will work. There are many issues raised about these and I am pleased that there are provisions in the act that place a requirement on the Minister to consult with the appropriate organizations on these. So my comment here is one I have made before and I will make again. The Minister is now obligated to consult with the organizations and I encourage the Minister to do that. I will also encourage all the appropriate organizations to ensure that they get involved in the development of these regulations. We can't continue to sit back and watch as things happen. The windows of opportunity are there and they have to prepare themselves to do this. I think the development of these regulations will take place over the next year. It is going to be a long tedious job, but I wish everyone good luck and all the best in working these out. I know it isn't easy.

Those are my general comments. As I mentioned, I will have specific comments as we get to the respective clauses. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister, his staff and everyone for all the hard work they have done in getting to this stage. It is a real achievement. Thank you.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1333

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. I am sure the Minister appreciates those kind words. Mr. Minister.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1334

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

I just want to correct a few remarks made by the honourable Member. First, we had a long discussion about the issue of the powers of the Minister. The irony is that there is less responsibility and power in the hands of the Minister as a result of this legislation than was in the previous legislation. We support that. A lot of it deals with the words that are included in the legislation. I hope, as we have our consultations with the communities, that we can clarify those understandings or misunderstandings that the communities might have. It is not my intention and, as a result, of the good dialogue with the Standing Committee on Legislation and its Members, we are not interested in taking away responsibilities and powers from our district education authorities or divisions. The more or less responsibility I have as a Minister in the daily affairs of managing the operations of schools and educational programs for our children and allow

the communities to be part of that, the better it is for the students and for the parents. It gives us an opportunity to concentrate on those areas the Member has pointed out that need additional work; that is, ensuring that the standards, criteria and guidelines allow us to be competitive in the quality of educational programs. I just wanted to make certain that that was clear and I appreciate the comments by the honourable Member.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1334

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Zoe.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1334

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make a few comments on the proposed Education Act. First of all, I have similar concerns to my colleagues with regard to aboriginal rights and also a choice of education, specifically for status Indians.

Mr. Chairman, although the act has been amended in the preamble to reflect section 35 of the Canadian Constitution of 1982, I am glad it is reflected, but I don't think it goes far enough. Mr. Chairman, the issue of the treaties, aboriginal rights and choice of education is a concern to me, especially as a parent and a status person. In relation to that, Mr. Chairman, I also have another concern which relates back to the Education Act. There is another component that we haven't touched on or the department has addressed to date. Let me backtrack, Mr. Chairman, because it does reflect on the Education Act.

First of all, in 1955, we had an agreement between the Government of the Northwest Territories and the federal government with regard to education for Dene people in the north and the Inuit. We had an agreement in terms of finances and the type of schooling that the Dene children should have. It is all spelled out in that document, which was signed on April 1, 1955.

As time went on, Mr. Chairman, in 1969, the employees of the federal government were transferred to our government. A new agreement should have been drafted then, but unfortunately it wasn't. There was just a letter signed by the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs to transfer employees to our government and all the assets. Mr. Chairman, in that transfer, I think, at that time, the government should have renegotiated a new deal with the government, or even now, because it reflects on the Education Act. Even the Standing Committee on Legislation has made numerous recommendations pertaining to financial resources; specifically for inclusive schooling, accommodation and so forth. There are a lot of issues that relate to the proposed Education Act.

Mr. Chairman, the other component I'm making reference to hasn't been addressed and I'm just wondering when the government is going to revise or renegotiate the agreement between ourselves and the federal government. As you are well aware, Mr. Chairman, resources are scarce nowadays, especially at the federal level and at our level. One of the other problems, in relation to this, Mr. Chairman, is funding that comes from the federal government is all rolled into the formula financing agreement.

Back in 1987, my colleague from the Deh Cho questioned the Minister of the day with regard to education of status Indians in the Northwest Territories. He asked a number of questions

to see if we had a number of agreements in place. They still exist on our books today, Mr. Chairman. Part of the question was in relation to funding; if the department was aware if we were being adequately funded by the federal government. In 1987 when the Minister of the day answered my colleague, Mr. Gargan's question, they couldn't differentiate between numbers in the funding flowing through the formula financing. They couldn't tell us if we were being adequately funded or not. I think that's still an issue today.

But, with the technology we have today, Mr. Chairman, I think it would be quite easy to determine how many status Indians we have, how many Inuit we have, how many Metis we have, and how many "others" we have. I don't think that would be such a big task for the department to put together. I think that's another area the government has to clear up, Mr. Chairman, because it relates back to what is being proposed in the Education Act.

Mr. Chairman, that whole area hasn't been looked at and I have a lot of concerns. I wonder when the government will be looking at this issue and when they anticipate they'll get started on it, because it's going to have an impact. Maybe it's time now that we get into a new agreement with the federal government before they shut the door on us with regard to resources. I feel, Mr. Chairman, that we're not being adequately funded, especially the status people of the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Chairman, although the department has indicated that they've looked at the Indian Act, Treaty 8 and 11 provisions that pertain to education rights and so forth, and the agreement between ourselves and the federal government -- I know they've looked at all of that -- I don't think the Minister can guarantee me, as a status person and a parent, that the interpretation they're using is right, because the other issues aren't resolved yet.

Although it may not be that they go against what is anticipated to be the definition of aboriginal rights and treaty rights, which haven't been defined yet -- so that's questionable now -- I interpret certain sections differently than the department. I don't think anyone has tested the scope of treaty sections or those pertaining to the educational rights of status people. In that respect, there is no test case, there is no guarantee that what they put in the act is accurate.

Mr. Chairman...

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1334

The Chair John Ningark

Mr. Zoe, I let you go two minutes over your limit. If you want to continue, you have to seek consent. Mr. Zoe.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1334

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

I would ask my colleagues if I can continue. Thank you.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1334

The Chair John Ningark

Is it agreed?

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1334

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1335

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Proceed, Mr. Zoe.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1335

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think the issue that I raised definitely has to be seriously looked at. Another issue I wanted to touch on is the issue which the standing committee also raised in their report, pertaining to the principal and if he or she should be in the NWTTA. I agree with the comments the committee has made. I think the issue has to be reviewed to determine if the principals should remain in the bargaining unit. I think that whole area has to be reviewed.

Mr. Chairman, I have a concern with regard to hours of instruction and the issue of the number of instructional days. Although I agree with the committee with regard to putting hours into the act, what the department is indicating to the committee, from what I read, is that they're going to be basing that on 195 days. I think they upped it from 190 from the old policy. That's my understanding. I think it should be a littlehigher than that. I think we're not going far enough with regard to the number of instructional days.

If you look at other jurisdictions, not only in Canada, but in the United States, Australia and Japan, the number of instructional days is higher. I understand Japan has 200 and some odd days where they teach their children, and they have been quite successful in that area of the world with regard to the education of their kids. In that respect, Mr. Chairman, I would have hoped that the instructional days would have been a littlebit higher than what has been proposed by the department. I understand it is going to be done through regulations, but if they follow the Standing Committee on Legislation's recommendation, the number of hours should be calculated based on the number of instructional days and then put into the act. I was hoping that the number of instructional days could have been higher.

With regard to inclusive schooling, I agree with the committee where they indicate that adequate resources definitely have to be tied into the inclusive schooling issue. If we don't do that, then we're going to run into problems. know we're currently having problems here in the territories with our overall funding, but once our funding is depleted, then our programs will hurt. I can assure you that this area is one of the areas that will be hit. I go back to the issue that I raised earlier with regard to the agreement between the Government of Canada and ourselves, pertaining to funding; that area has to be looked at because it touches things like inclusive schooling, as well as the other issue of accommodation, which would also require funding and so forth.

There is another section in part Ill under cultural diversity withregard to language resources. There again, if we would have revised the existing Education Act, maybe that whole issue could have been addressed through that agreement before we dealt with this issue. Mr. Chairman, it goes back to money issues again. Although we say all these good things in the act, if we don't have adequate resources, there is no use in saying these things.

Mr. Chairman, again with regard to the treaty issue and choice of education, the way the proposed act reads is only if you don't have high schooling and sort forth in your community, the students will be able to go to another jurisdiction to continue their schooling. Through aboriginal rights, as a parent and being a status person, I should have the right to say where my child should be able to go, not specifically to be detained to one specific district. Until all these issues are resolved... Currently, even though we have the act in place, as an individual, one can go directly to the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs to ask for approval. If he gives approval now, from my understanding of reading the agreement between the Government of Canada and ourselves, the authority lies with the Minister of Indian Affairs. If the Minister disagrees with someone, we could always go directly to the federal government. That option is there, but I am hoping the government would try to resolve all these issues when they are renegotiating this agreement. That one component, as I indicated earlier, hasn't been dealt with yet. It all ties in together. You can't do one without the other. I am glad that this bill is in front of us now and I will be supporting the bill, although I am not totally satisfied. Nevertheless, I think the bill is a step in the right direction. Thank you.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1335

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister, did you want to respond to the remarks by Mr. Zoe?

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1336

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

No, Mr. Chairman. The comments that have been made by the honourable Member... The issue of educational funding has been a matter of discussion of myself and my colleagues. We see it as one of the outstanding issues the federal government has to resolve. There are some situations that make it difficult; for example, the fiscal situation not only here, but the fiscal situation across the country.

It is also interesting to note, Mr. Chairman, that the Department of Indian Affairs had their budgets remain constant, yet when it came to transferring money, our budget was reduced. So you have to look at it in that context as well; whether they are passing on the resources to allow us to do our work. That is a political matter and my view is that some of the concerns are legal and constitutional.

I want to make one point. The Member made a comment about the issue of trying to define treaty rights. His arguments and comments prove exactly why it is very difficult to be very definitive and explicit in our legislation. There is so much in terms of the definition and interpretation that we, as aboriginal people, give the whole issue of education rights in treaties and in our land claims agreements, that that has never really been resolved between the aboriginal people and the federal government. That's why it's very difficult to define that in our legislation.

The other point is that the legislation itself is the framework by which we administer and manage the educational system. So the whole issue of collective rights and treaty rights is really something that is in another agreement and should be resolved between the appropriate parties and the federal government. So it makes it difficult for me to be definitive. I think your arguments prove the reason why it's so difficult to do it.

The other point that I wanted to make to the honourable Members, and generally the comments I want to make so that people are clear; the fact is that based on even the manner in which education funds are being managed for aboriginal people across the country, there are more and more restrictions being placed on bands because the authority has been transferred to them. Therefore, the kind of ability that

Indian Affairs had at one time is no longer there. But there area lot more restrictions, for instance, even for band members who do not live on reserves to access funds for post-secondary education.

But these are the rules that are changing across the country. Ours have generally not changed that substantially. In fact, I pointed out to Mr. Koe earlier that one of the problems we're encountering as a result of federal policy change is that we are not being held responsible for delivering educational programs for treaty and status Indian and Inuit in the other provinces and in the Yukon. So we are being pressed to accept responsibility for that. But in our formula calculations and in our population census, they are never considered in those numbers. So it's kind of an awkward way of doing business, but the fact is that they're forcing us to assume responsibility for that without evercompensating us for that responsibility.

So I think the honourable Member has made some good points and, thus, raised the issue. But I think one still has to recognize this as the administrative management document for our educational system, and those additional issues really have to be resolved outside the document. I appreciate the concerns the honourable Member has raised. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1336

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Dent.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1337

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have just a few general comments. I know that in speaking to people about the new Education Act, most of the comments that I've received along the way are that it's about time and that an update was needed. So I think most people welcome the fact that we've gotten this process under way.

One problem I have, Mr. Chairman, is that I'm meeting tomorrow with the two school boards in Yellowknife to discuss the revised act, so my comments may not reflect all of the concerns that I may wish to bring forward. I may, in future, have to seek consent to make more comments.

In any case, Mr. Chairman, while in Yellowknife, most people see this as an important step -- updating the act -- it isn't seen as providing a lot of change. In Yellowknife, this new act doesn't significantly increase the authority or the autonomy of the boards. I n fact, the act appears to bring regional boards, in many ways, up to the level of authority and autonomy that Yellowknife currently enjoys. I guess that is one concern that I have heard, that since, especially in Yellowknife, we pay a significant portion of the cost of operating our school system, we should have even more autonomy than other boards.

Mr. Chairman, the one way to address this would perhaps be to talk about the issue of fairness and equity. This is something not in the current act, but perhaps we should start talking about eliminating the difference between what Yellowknifers pay in education tax and that paid by others in the Northwest Territories. Mr. Chairman, the residents of Yellowknife pay more than 70 per cent of all education taxes collected in the Northwest Territories, and I would submit that it is not fair that there is such a significant difference between what is collected in Yellowknife and in other regions.

To put this on a personal scale, in Yellowknife I have a modestly-sized house of about 1,400 square feet. On that, I pay school taxes of $1,500 a year. Now, Mr. Chairman, other Members of this House, say a Cabinet Minister who lives in Rankin Inlet or Cambridge Bay probably pays on their house no more than $150 a year in school taxes, even though -- since our salaries are tabled in this House -- we know they make more money than I do. I would question the fairness.

I can make the same arguments about communities such as Hay River, Fort Smith, lqaluit or Inuvik. The point is, Mr. Chairman, there isn't fairness and equity when it comes to the financing of school programs in the Northwest Territories. I think that is something that has to be addressed. I know there is a review under way right now of the financing of not just the school system, but municipalities, and whether or not property taxes are the correct way to do that. I would hope that as part of the evaluation, that we've directed the consultants to examine the situation in Newfoundland. In Newfoundland, the school systems are financed through personal taxes, currently. They quit charging a school tax and have made a conscious decision to increase personal taxes to pay for the school system.

To Yellowknifers, Mr. Chairman, this is one of the major issues that concerns them, the fact that we have to pay so much for the school system when it's not the case in other places, even tax-based municipalities.

The other issue I would like to comment on, Mr. Chairman, is some concerns have been expressed to me as to whether or not the act, even in its revised and reprinted form, meets the requirements of section 23 of our Constitution. The concerns have been expressed by L'Association des Parents Francophones de Yellowknife. I would like to thank the Minister for meeting with their representatives, as late as this afternoon, to hear their concerns and see if there is some way to address them. I still am not sure of the outcome of this meeting but I'm sure, in the spirit of cooperation, we have a much better chance of resolving all of our concerns in an amicable way. I hope that is what we can do.

Mr. Chairman, another area that I would like to make some general comments on is that of inclusive schooling. As expressed in the Standing Committee on Legislation's report, I have some concerns with this funding, and I would like to endorse recommendation 2 of the standing committee's report. As I have pointed out, Mr. Chairman, during consideration of the budget, I think all of us in this House welcomed the extra money that was found for this year for inclusive schooling, but while we added $1.5 million to the special needs funding, we cut $3.5 million over the course of the school year from regular grants. The question is are we robbing Peter to pay Paul? The point being, if we cut regular grants too deeply, the boards won't be able to follow through in providing the services to the special needs students who need to be included. If the class size goes through the roof -- by the way, Mr. Chairman, I am not indicating that that has happened yet; I am just pointing out that that is a concern we have to watch for -- even the additional resources provided for students in inclusive schooling won't be adequate because the initial resources they are to supplement will have been stretched too thin. It is an area we are going to have to watch very closely and be very concerned about.

Mr. Chairman, as I mentioned earlier, I will be meeting tomorrow with representatives of the school board, so at this point in time, I don't know if Yellowknife Catholic schools are satisfied with the amendments regarding religious programs made at the committee stage. Just for the record, I want to say that I strongly support their right to offer Catholic-based education and will be interested in hearing their comments tomorrow.

Mr. Chairman, I have some other comments to make, but they relate more specifically to individual sections; for instance, AIDS Yellowknife has expressed concern about some of the sections and I would like to bring forward some of those concerns as we go through the document, but I will wait until we get to the clause-by-clause in order to deal with that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Report 11-12(7): Report On The Review Of Bill 25 - The Education ActBill 25: Education Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1337

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Do we have further general comments from the committee? Mr. Minister.