This is page numbers 1341 - 1373 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Topics

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1365

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What legal status does this preamble have in terms of challenge, like a court challenge, for this act? Thank you.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1365

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Ms. MacPherson.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1365

Law Clerk Ms. Macpherson

I am a bit unclear, Mr. Chairman, as to the question. The preamble will be used to assist the court if there were ever a challenge to the act. For example, if somebody challenged the act on the sections dealing with religious education and the court wanted to find out what this Legislature meant in section 77, it could look to

the preamble to garner the intention of the Legislature. So, in terms of the status, it is a part of the law. It will, if it's passed through this House and the act is proclaimed into force, form a part of the Education Act and will be a part of the law that comprises the Education Act. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. MacPherson. Clause 2. General comments. Mr. Koe.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

Fred Koe Inuvik

Mr. Chairman, my colleague initially asked unanimous consent to go back to general comments, so I assume we are still on general comments.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

That is correct. You are correct. He had 55 seconds left in his time slot. Mr. Koe, general comments.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

Fred Koe Inuvik

I just want to make some general comments on the act. On pages 1 and 2 -- I think it's referred to as the preamble

-- I would like to make some comments before we get into more detail on the clauses.

There is a section in the preamble that refers to the physical, emotional, social, intellectual and spiritual aspects of the lives of students. These are key words used to impact the life of a student, but I do not believe the act itself can set the rules in respect of these issues.

Paragraph three goes on to say that education is a partnership between parents, students, educators and government; but in the act, the act tends to set a lot of limitations and restrictions on the development of these aspects for a student. So I just wanted to say that all the partners in education must focus on the development of the student with as much leeway and as much freedom as possible. We can't continue to restrict them and set restrictions and limitations on the system.

The whole area of rights and freedoms of aboriginal people is another area that I'd like to mention. My colleague, Mr. Antoine, mentioned the various clauses that relate to rights, freedoms and languages as set out in the Constitution Act, 1982.

I would like to ask a question and get clarification for the record. Does section 35 of the Constitution Act include all the land claim agreements that have been settled to date?

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Koe. Ms. MacPherson.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

Law Clerk Ms. Macpherson

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, it does. Section 35.(3) of the Constitution Act, 1982 provides that treaty rights includes rights that now exist by way of land claims agreements or may be so acquired. That would include rights, as they existed in 1982, and those that may be acquired as negotiations commence.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. MacPherson. Mr. Koe.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

Fred Koe Inuvik

The other area is that there are a lot of negotiations going on now, so where would any future agreements come into play? Does section 35 cover future agreements, say the Dogrib or Treaty 8 entitlements? Are they covered under section 35?

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Koe. I believe Ms. MacPherson did answer that but, just to clarify, we'll refer back to Ms. MacPherson.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

Law Clerk Ms. Macpherson

Yes, Mr. Chairman, for the record they would include future land claim agreements.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. MacPherson. Mr. Koe.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

Fred Koe Inuvik

Mr. Antoine raised a question that the only place that we refer to section 15, the equality issue; sections 23 and 25 dealing with language; and, section 35, is in the preamble. Would it be feasible to have a similar clause referring to these sections, or at least section 35, included somewhere in the act itself? Why isn't that specific clause included in the act itself?

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Koe. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chairman, the preamble is part of the act. It clarifies the basis on which we will interpret the application of the act and, as such, section 15 and 23 that the honourable Member is referring to has to form the basis of the application of the administration of education.

We're not in the business of defining what those rights are; we're making certain that we apply them accordingly. The problem is that there are a number of things that have to be done yet to continue to define those rights: whether or not they are court cases, negotiations, redefinition of treaties, or other arrangements, like new policy changes that take place. All of these will have a bearing on the applications that are in the preamble.

We can not change the definition of section 35, 25, 15, or 23 because we don't have the authority to amend the Constitution of Canada. Those arrangements are reached between the parties and are defined accordingly in court proceedings. Every change that occurs is applicable under our legislation because we are the administrators. However, the trustees still remain the federal government and they have the final obligation to ensure that we have an ability to live up to the agreements that are reached between the parties, whether they are aboriginal people or the Francophone-speaking community in the Northwest Territories. Or if individual rights expand, then we have to consider that in the administration of education programs and services in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Koe.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1366

Fred Koe Inuvik

Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. The other issue that was raised earlier by my colleague from Yellowknife dealt with the language issue, specifically French, and Mr. Antoine raised the issue of aboriginal languages. Some of the documents leading up to this new act state that we're trying to make the act fit in line with the Canadian Charter and also with the new Northwest Territories Officials Languages Act. We say in the preamble that students may receive their education in one of the official languages of the Northwest Territories Act. I believe we're trying to recognize language rights for aboriginal languages

that would be similar to those provided for French and for English minorities.

There's some concern that maybe in the act that may not be fully achieved. When we get to the specific clauses, especially dealing with aboriginal languages, there seem to be restrictions on what can happen when we deal with aboriginal languages. I would like some comment from the Minister on this aspect of aboriginal languages.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1367

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Koe. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1367

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Everybody in this House has clearly indicated the need to recognize the official languages and to ensure that those students that want to receive educational programs and services in other than French and English certainly have the right to do so under this present legislation. In fact, it's more specific in some cases. In my view, I have to say to the honourable Member that I do not agree with his interpretation that it is restrictive. In fact, what is occurring is we are recognizing those rights that exist under the official languages legislation.

Not only that, we are now permitting the delivery of programs in aboriginal languages that we did not do previously. We, as a government and as an Assembly, permitting the district education authorities to make that determination. I have tried to encourage people to stay out of the daily business of the district educational authority and the divisional boards. It's no different here, I guess, that as we debate this issue, it seems that we want more restrictions rather than less. We're not intending to be restrictive, we're trying to be more permissive in the ability to use languages.

However, there has to be some basis for delivery of language programs. That is on the quality of the educator, the quality of the curriculum, the quality of the service and the quality of the facilities that are being used to offer the program. If none of those are factors then the arguments that the honourable Member raised in his opening statement about how we deal with quality programming, is not relevant. I agree with the honourable Member about quality and those are the quality standards and criteria that guide us in the ability of the aboriginal community to deliver those programs.

I think what we're trying to do is be permissive, but also set some specific standards and criteria which -- as the honourable Member has articulated quite clearly in this House -- need to be a part of the delivery of the services and programs. I agree with the honourable Member, it's not intended to be restrictive. In fact, we're trying to be as permissive as possible but there has to be some limitations on quality in terms of standards and criteria.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1367

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Koe.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1367

Fred Koe Inuvik

Thank you. I fully appreciate the magnitude of the problems and the difficulty in dealing with aboriginal rights and treaty rights. I'm trying to get some definition, but these are concerns raised by people across the north and, as I've mentioned and other people have mentioned, they haven't been resolved. So I think it's incumbent to raise these and try to get some clarification as to what is happening so that people do understand and can hear publicly what these things mean.

The whole issue that the Minister raised is...and we'll deal with it when we get to clause 90. That is where we talk about dealing with languages, especially aboriginal languages and the district authority. That's where I meant there are limitations. The words "significant demand," "sufficient, fluent teachers" and, "sufficient and suitable program materials." Those are the criteria used; if those things are all available, then we can do certain things. You can teach it. But those items are going to be determined by the department. So we don't teach aboriginal languages to teachers. If we don't provide access for them to get their certificates, then we don't have fluent instructors. Then who's to determine what fluent is? Again, we have to discuss these things.

What does it mean if we have sufficient and suitable program materials? Again, it's the department that has funded or is supposed to provide those materials. So on one hand, we're saying we can do it, but here are some criteria that we have to meet. It's up to the department to do those things in terms of the partnerships of other organizations. So it's a catch-22, sometimes.

I'm just raising these issues because these are issues that not only myself, but the people I represent want some clarification on. They're issues that have been brought up, as I mentioned, by people in a lot of communities. So I raise that and the Minister can respond if he wishes.

But the other point I want to raise is that the Minister stated that he will be consulting with the Federation Franco-TeNoise in terms of the French language issue. Will the Minister also be consulting with the aboriginal organizations in terms of aboriginal language issues?

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1367

The Chair

The Chair Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Koe. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 69-12(7): To Amend Clause 1 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1367

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Certainly, the recommendation allows for permissive consultations. If they're interested, we would gladly consult. But I do want to say this: that it is important that when you deal with aboriginal organizations, we have to deal with it in the context of ensuring that those organizations that represent the language groups are the ones consulted. Not just simply the territorial organizations, because there are language centres that are involved in this business, there are agreements -- which I know the honourable Member is aware of -- in three or four instances where there are educational/cultural institutes, including the Dene Cultural Institute, that are involved in this issue of cultural education. We also have language centres which are associated with language groups. So there are organizations that are involved.

But I do want to say this as well: we have teaching and learning centres that are developing program material. I don't want anyone to get the impression that somehow we don't have enough materials out in the regions. I can speak from my own regional experience, the Gwich'in Language Centre; in my view, I'm proud of those people for the amount of work that they've done in developing the language, helping in the development of curriculum. I'm proud of people like Mary Effie Snowshoe and people like Hannah Alexie who used to teach in the McPherson school, and I'm also proud of the teachers we're training today; not only the teachers, but the teachers who are specifically dealing with aboriginal language education. In other words, they're the language specialists.

I have to say that I don't want people to be left with the impression that somehow the department or this government or this Assembly has not done anything positive. We've done a lot of good things, but that doesn't mean we stop here. Our target for the year 2000 of 50 per cent aboriginal teachers, I think helps us address the issues the honourable Member has raised. I know I've had the support of the honourable Member, but we have to maintain always, as the honourable Member has said, certain standards and quality in the programs we offer. Part of that includes the development of materials in conjunction with the aboriginal language groups that are involved. I know the honourable Member has supported that on a number of occasions. Experience has taught us that we've done a good job. Obviously, we have a lot more to do but I think we've done quite a bit. In education, nothing is ever perfect and everything needs to be improved. I take note of the comments of the honourable Member.

Clause By Clause