This is page numbers 1400 - 1440 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Topics

Committee Motion 78-12(7): To Amend Clause 44 Of Bill 25
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1437

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

I tried, Mr. Chairman, to explain to some of my colleagues, some of the problems that are inherent every time we introduce an amendment. When you're introducing an amendment or any changes, I think you have to reflect on the positive things that have already happened. I've looked at the amendment and I want to advise the honourable Members that right now, we have in existence a certification program for aboriginal language specialist teachers. In fact, Mr. Chairman, some of the individuals involved in the teacher education program are involved in this area of speciality. The other point is, approximately 25 per cent of teachers are aboriginal teachers and, right now, about 180 aboriginal students are enrolled in training and it is our expectation that by the year 2000, we will have 50 per cent aboriginal teachers.

Mr. Chairman, this is not a reflection of the fact that already, in some regions, over 50 per cent of our teachers are of aboriginal descent. In many ways, there is a suggestion that, somehow, we shouldn't consider these skills. The other thing that we have to understand is future sections to this legislation. District authorities and divisional councils can now employ individuals to provide cultural instruction at their direction. At the direction of the standing committee, we agreed that we needed to recognize and honour elders with honorary certificates. This amendment puts aboriginal official languages into a class separate from English and French, which makes it appear to be a second-class program. The fact is, our official languages legislation is recognized in this legislation, and the interpretation that is given is that all languages in our official languages legislation are equal, and they must be respected as such. The amendment changes that whole idea. In fact, it does something that many past Members argued against -- including, in fact, some Members who are now sitting in this Assembly --which was the fact that French was being imposed upon in 1984. I remember those arguments very clearly.

One individual by the name of Mr. Patterson was quite vehement about the tact that he could not see how French language programming and services could be considered without considering first aboriginal languages, aboriginal languages being more equal than others. Yet, the fact is, many Members who were here at that time --and there are probably just a few of us left --went on to consider it and, in particular, Charter requirements.

The other point is, we need to have the same quality and standards in all language programs across our system. I think we have to consider that. The other thing is, we do not want and have tried not to set up barriers to aboriginal languages or languages of instruction. We want to encourage them. That is the whole basis on which we tried not to divide aboriginal languages and French and English. Rather, we have tried to treat them all as equal, without one language being less.

I recognize the intent Well, I shouldn't say I recognize; I don't recognize the intent of the amendment. It, in fact, puts into place the idea --maybe not intentionally --that aboriginal languages are of lesser status than English and French. I recall this argument quite clearly in 1984 and I recalled it after. That is my reading of what the amendment would do. It was our intention, through the legislation that was proposed, to try to ensure the quality of all of those languages. The other thing is, right now, it is our intention to ensure the certification of all teachers, rather than saying we will divide people into categories of teachers. In that sense, we're concerned about the amendment and I would have to say that at this particular juncture, I couldn't support it.

Committee Motion 78-12(7): To Amend Clause 44 Of Bill 25
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1438

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. To the motion. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 78-12(7): To Amend Clause 44 Of Bill 25
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1438

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's not my intention to indicate that any aboriginal language is of lesser importance than English or French, but the reality is that in the school system, it is. I don't see this government and the Department of Education taking any steps to enhance official languages and the aboriginal languages.

For example, in my community, we've had a difficult time getting a Cree teacher, let alone the department going out and making sure other classes were stopped until they could obtain a Cree teacher. There was no such effort like that. Things went on as they were and, as a result, this past year there hasn't been a Cree teacher available, probably because of the criteria requested by the department.

What I am asking in this motion is that if the department wants to make a sincere effort to address aboriginal languages as official languages in the school system, then teachers shouldn't have to be certified if they have the knowledge available, particularly if they are not elders. There are a lot of dynamic individuals who can teach aboriginal languages in schools, but unfortunately, do not have the proper certification. These are the type of people who we are trying to capture.

So I don't think the Minister should indicate that you are making this less than the languages of English and French. If that's the way he feels, then that's how his department is addressing it, because it certainly hasn't been enhanced. Thank you.

Committee Motion 78-12(7): To Amend Clause 44 Of Bill 25
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1438

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 78-12(7): To Amend Clause 44 Of Bill 25
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1438

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chairman, I have read the motion, and I am articulating exactly what the interpretation would mean. We may have different views about this, but the fact is, if you read it in the context that is proposed, in terms of the initiatives that have been articulated, then that is exactly what happens, because we have tried to get away --and a big debate has occurred for a number years --from separating the certification of our teachers into categories. We wanted to articulate quite clearly that our aboriginal teachers are teachers. They are not aboriginal language specialists, per se. There is recognition for that but those people are clearly as teachers.

The other component is that we have done a number of things, and I guess the issue is if you want to debate those issues, then there's another forum to do it. I want to advise that if you read sections 117 and 118.(1)(k) particularly, it says: "in addition to the school program, develop and deliver early childhood development, adult education, cultural, religious or other programs to enhance learning and hire and employ persons for the programs and charge fees for the programs;". So what you are trying to accomplish here, where you say that you want to be able to hire those other individuals who do not have certificates, we allow for that to happen under section 118. So it's already being considered there. So that's what, I guess, I wanted you to be aware of; that we are already trying to do that in other sections in the legislation.

Again, on the matter of initiatives, all one has to do is look at the teacher training. You have to look at Dene Kede and look at Innugatigiit. These are only two of the types of initiatives that we are undertaking and the amount of efforts that are being made.

The other thing is that there are technical difficulties with clause 44, as proposed. "For greater certainty" is an inappropriate term used to clarify a definition or a statement. "Classroom assistant' is a position that does not exist in the new scheme. In other words, what we are saying is that those individuals are teachers now. They don't exist. They are considered as teachers and will be recognized as teachers.

There is no definition, for instance, for "special skills, knowledge or abilities". Who will judge the qualifications? That's the whole issue, as Mr. Koe earlier argued quite vehemently, about making sure that there are standards and criteria for our educators, making sure that we have quality educators. Here, in the same instance, we are saying that there be a different judgment about the quality of individuals who we are recruiting. I don't think that the aboriginal community or any of the leaders would agree that would be the basis on which we hire people in the schools. It should be based on some criteria and qualifications.

So I look at it in that context, and I have to say that, still, it causes me some concern, and maybe what we need to do is have a look quickly at the other components in the act. But purely on the matter of the amendment, as proposed, I would have to indicate opposition to it in the context that it's being proposed now. So that's what makes it so difficult, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 78-12(7): To Amend Clause 44 Of Bill 25
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. To the motion. Member for Thebacha, then I have Mr. Koe.

Committee Motion 78-12(7): To Amend Clause 44 Of Bill 25
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to ask legal counsel for clarification. The Minister indicated it's not proper language. As Members, we don't run to legal counsel every time we want to change a clause in a bill or we want to propose an amendment. That's what we have the resources here for. So, the ordinary Members are at a disadvantage when we compare the resources the Minister has. I don't appreciate the remarks, that this isn't the proper language. It still gets my intent and my purpose across in proposing this clause.

I would like to ask, Mr. Chairman, if we can ask legal counsel what the legal wording would be to reflect the intent of this clause? Thank you.

Committee Motion 78-12(7): To Amend Clause 44 Of Bill 25
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. The legal counsel, Ms. MacPherson.

Committee Motion 78-12(7): To Amend Clause 44 Of Bill 25
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Law Clerk Ms. Macpherson

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I were drafting this motion, I would not have used the words "greater certainty" but I would have tried to link the intent of this motion to a person hired for local programs, or I would have said, notwithstanding section 44.(1) --which is the prohibitive section --a person may be employed, at cetera, et cetera. Obviously, given that this act does not include classroom assistants, there would have to be some rewording with that language. Basically, you would say that a person who is not certified to teach may be employed to teach an official language. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 78-12(7): To Amend Clause 44 Of Bill 25
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. There is a motion to defer consideration of clause 44.

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

An Hon. Member

Question.

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair John Ningark

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Clause 44 is deferred. Motion is carried.

---Carried

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair John Ningark

Clause 45. Mr. Koe.

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Fred Koe Inuvik

Under clause 45, 45.(1)(b), the words "diligently teach students"; what does that mean?

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

As in "diligently working in the House." May I ask Carol Whitehouse to please respond.

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair John Ningark

Ms. Whitehouse.

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Whitehouse

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The word "diligent" would carry its normal dictionary meaning. I, unfortunately, don't have a dictionary in front of me, but to diligently pursue something is to be committed and persistent, and to do something to the best of their ability. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Koe, to clause 45.

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Fred Koe Inuvik

I just wonder why such a word would be used in an act. How do you measure if someone diligently teaches? It just seems to be a strange word to use in an act that's defining roles and responsibilities of an individual.

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Clause 45. Any further comments? Mr. Koe.

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Fred Koe Inuvik

Referring to the same clause, the teacher has to diligently teach emotional development and diligently teach spiritual development. I'm just talking out loud because I'm just wondering how one can do that, and how can one measure that? That's my point.

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 79-12(7): To Defer Consideration Of Clause 44 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess the issue is when you leave out words, then obviously you get an different interpretation, but the issue is promote their physical, emotional, intellectual and spiritual development.