This is page numbers 1525 - 1578 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was language.

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Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

June 21st, 1995

Page 1566

Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister indicated earlier in his response to Mr. Allooloo's question that instruction shall be provided in schools only if the materials are available. Is that what he said?

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1566

The Chair Brian Lewis

Mr. Nerysoo.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1566

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Mr. Chairman, the materials have to, obviously, be available. But this clause deals with the teaching of every subject from 9:00 am to 3:30 pm in that language. It is for teaching math and biology without English; in other words, all in the aboriginal language or whatever official language you wish to use, like English. It is the teaching of those subjects in that language. That's what language of instruction means.

If, for instance, in the Gwich'in communities, we wanted to include Gwich'in as a subject -- in other words, we hire a language instructor for the development of students in that language -- that's a subject, it's not considered a language of instruction. They have to teach all the subjects in the language, as is the case in most of the communities.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1566

The Chair Brian Lewis

Ms. Mike.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I used to work with the Department of Education, doing evaluations of aboriginal languages, including all the dialects. What is the department doing now to assist in producing relevant materials in aboriginal languages?

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Ms. Mike. Mr. Nerysoo.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We fund the teaching and learning centres, the agents really responsible for developing a lot of the materials. In the matter of curriculum, Innuqatigiit is the basis on which we're going to be delivering Inuktitut programming in the communities. In the west, the base curriculum is Dene Kede. That is what has occurred so far, but we continue to fund the teaching and learning centres. We are also responsible, of course, for teacher training and we have been successful, I think, in the Baffin with the teacher education program.

From a community development perspective, I think we've done a good job. We still need to continue to work towards our goal of having at least 50 per cent aboriginal educators across the north. We have been very successful in the Inuit communities and we hope, by using the same community teacher education program, we can also be successful in the Dene communities. We now have instructors that can actually teach these subjects.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Ms. Mike, are you done? Ms. Mike.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In Nunavut communities, from kindergarten to grade 3, instruction is all in Inuktitut, but I'm not sure whether that is the case in western communities, especially in aboriginal communities. That's why I asked if the department still assists in program development by providing learning materials, and if they still do evaluations on production of materials in aboriginal languages. To my understanding, some of the Dene languages, some of the Dene learning materials, are not as progressed as ones in Nunavut. I'm wondering what kind of protection they have under this act.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Ms. Mike. Mr. Nerysoo.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you. I will advise the honourable Member that we do have, again, our teaching and learning centres that we fund on an ongoing basis. I believe every language is serviced right now in the Dene, with the exception of pre...The language of instruction, for instance, in Dogrib is from K to 2; and Fort Franklin, North Slavey, I believe it's the same. Those are generally the two. One community in Sahtu and all the communities in the Dogrib region, I believe. That's in terms of language of instruction for Dene communities.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Ms. Mike.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

Rebecca Mike Baffin Central

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The reason I have some concerns about this is because the Minister's staff, especially the one sitting behind him, were in the Baffin when the Baffin Divisional Board of Education was established. They were told the importance of -- by the professors from universities in, I think, Montreal -- teaching the Inuktitut language, which is the language most spoken in the homes of Nunavut communities. The importance of it was that if the children whose first language is Inuktitut develop their Inuktitut language first, then they have a better chance of learning English as a second language, as opposed to introducing English right away from kindergarten to grade 3.

I'm wondering if, for the Dene communities in the west, whether that is being considered in schools.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Ms. Mike. Mr. Nerysoo.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That same message, Mr. Chairman, is being given in the Dene communities, as well. What you must understand is that we are now implementing in some regions now -- the Sahtu and the Deh Cho particularly -- the community teacher education program. We are now working in the Beaufort. We've been working in the Dogrib community. We've done some work in the South Slave, I believe, and so we are now covering, I think, all regions with our community teacher education program.

Like everything else, you have to have the people to be able to deliver the programs in those languages. It's not simply a matter of teaching it as a subject. Those teachers have to be knowledgeable about the concepts that they're teaching and must be able to deliver it in their language. That's where we're at right now.

The same comments you made are reflected in our view and we're trying to do it with all the Dene communities, as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Zoe.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I believe it's this section that I can make general comments on. With regard to the language of instruction, generally, Mr. Chairman, I note that through a number of sections related to language and instruction there's reference made to, particularly, the French; that they have a right to teach their kids the French language, language of instruction. It's a right. Well, I note -- and I've been reading this section 71 with regard to language of instruction, aboriginal language of instruction -- there's no specific reference similar to the other section that relates to the French people. There's no specific right for the aboriginal parent to teach their child in the aboriginal language.

I want to ask the Minister why wasn't the same type of language used in this particular section pertaining to the aboriginal languages? Thank you.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Nerysoo.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1567

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this legislation does not establish the rights of the French or the rights of the English. This legislation recognizes the existence of a right in the Canadian Charter of Rights. Based on that, we have an obligation to recognize that particular minority language education right that exists. Aboriginal rights, in this particular context, have been recognized in the preamble and in 4.(2).

The problem, Mr. Chairman, and I've been trying to say this in my introduction and in my comments, is that it is very unclear, to date, what those specific rights of aboriginal people really are for education, for that matter because there's no specific definition and interpretation that has been given to those rights. We recognize -- and I've said this all along -- and certainly this government's intention is to recognize that there are existing rights. What they are has not been defined. It makes it very difficult for us to say, yes, certain rights exist and these are the rights. That's what makes it difficult.

What we're trying to do is take it in a broader context and say that whatever rights might exist, we will recognize them. How they are defined, in some cases, will be through self-government agreements or treaty rights definitions or interpretations between the aboriginal people and the federal government. However, as a territorial government, we cannot define what those rights are because the relationship is not between the aboriginal people and the territorial government; the relationship is between the aboriginal people and the federal government, the Crown, you might say. That's why it's difficult for us to say these are the rights.

The other thing is that we're recognizing and encouraging rights of aboriginal languages, as a result of our official languages legislation. As a result of that, we are putting in place the appropriate recognition to allow the communities to respect and to instruct in the official languages within that Official Languages Act.

That's how we're getting into the recognition that they have a right to make these decisions and a right to be educated in those languages.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1568

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Mr. Zoe.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1568

Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand what the Minister is saying but even with, for instance, the French right to have their children educated in the French language, I don't think it's what you call a "right" right. I'm not a legal person, but isn't there a provisional right because they're not really defined as all, certain rights; if I'm right. If I'm right, that's the legal definition. But there is, I think, something called a provisional right, not as a right right for these French speaking parents.

It appears, when you read these sections, Mr. Chairman, that the French parents can have their children taught, it is their right, but there is no reference saying aboriginal people have a right to teach their kids. It doesn't read well. The same language isn't used in these two sections. That is the point I was trying to get across. I understand the rationale for what the Minister is saying, but even with the French...I think it is

what they call provisional rights. In the Charter of Rights, they have to meet certain qualifications. Am I correct?

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1568

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, right, Mr. Zoe.

---Laughter

Mr. Nerysoo.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1568

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Right, Mr. Chairman.

---Laughter

Mr. Chairman, I believe that the honourable Member has pointed out the basis on which the rights of the French are recognized under section 23. It is clear under section 23 of the Charter. "Where numbers warrant" are the words that are incumbent upon the interpretation to be given to that. The courts have ruled quite clearly in its interpretation and based on section 23. You might say the right isn't absolute. You can't just extend more and interpret it to be more than what it really is. I think some of the recommendations that have been made and suggestions here have been that we were trying to extend rights beyond what had been interpreted in the courts. Some suggestions would have gone further than what the courts had ruled.

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1568

The Chair Brian Lewis

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Clause 71, as amended. Do you agree?

Committee Motion 101-12(7): To Amend Clause 71 Of Bill 25, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1568

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed