This is page numbers 57 - 83 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 2nd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was ---agreed.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 68

The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. There are 14 for the motion, six against and two abstentions. The motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 2 has had second reading. Mr. Todd.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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John Todd Keewatin Central

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to waive Rule 69(2) and have Bill 2, An Act to Amend the Public Service Act, placed on the orders paper for Committee of the Whole today.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

Thank you. The honourable Member for Keewatin Central, Mr. Todd, is seeking unanimous consent to waive Rule 69(2) to have Bill 2 moved into Committee of the Whole for today. Are there any nays?

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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An Hon. Member

Nay.

Bill 2: An Act To Amend The Public Service Act
Item 18: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Deputy Speaker John Ningark

There is a nay. Therefore, accordingly, Bill 2 stands referred to a committee. Thank you.

Item 18, second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters: Bill 1, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96, with the Member for Hay River, Mrs. Groenewegen, in the chair.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

I call the committee to order. We will recess for 15 minutes. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

I will call Committee of the Whole back to order. We're dealing with Bill 1, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96. I will ask the Minister of Finance, Mr. Todd, to introduce the bill.

Minister's Introductory Comments

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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John Todd Keewatin Central

Thank you, Madam Chair. Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96, requests authority for additional appropriations of $41.495 million. This supplementary appropriation consists of additional appropriations in the amount of $40.184 million in operations and maintenance and $865,500 in capital.

The significant amounts included in the Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96, are $16.667 million for Health and Social Services. This amount is to fund increased expenditures for medical travel of $9.032 million out-of Territories hospital charges of $5.004 million and foster care and residential care for children of $3.031 million.

There is also $10.798 million for Education, Culture and Employment, principally to fund a projected deficit or deficiency in the social assistance program of $7.629 million, and increased costs for the student financial assistance program of $1.010 million.

MACA has requested $4.3405 million, of which $2.396 million is for increased funding for the water and sewer subsidy program; $978,000 is a transfer from capital to be included in hamlet operation contributions in settlement funding.

There is $3.9485 million is for Renewable Resources. Of this amount, $3.6835 million is for the various conservation education and resource development expenditures, including the workers' compensation payments for renewable resource harvesters of $1.062 million. The western harvesters' assistance program payments of $1.7215 million and a grant in-kind of 160 bison to the Deninu K'ue First Nations with a deemed value of $900,000.

There is $3 million to finance the increased cost of interest, and Justice requires $1.437 million for a variety of items including outstanding claims under the Criminal Injuries Compensation Act of $411,000 and funding for the coroner's request of $315,000.

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you very much, Mr. Todd. There were just a couple of slips in there, but Madam Chairman will be in order. Thank you. Mr. Erasmus, chairman of the Government Operations Committee, can we please have your comments to the bill.

Standing Committee On Government Operations Comments

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chair. The review of this supplementary appropriation is noteworthy for two reasons: first, it represents the first time that a supplementary appropriation has been reviewed by the newly-formed standing committees on Social Programs, Infrastructure and Resource Management and Development; second, for those 14 new Members on those committees, it represents the first time they have had the opportunity to perform such a review.

One prominent theme was common to all three of the envelope standing committees. Committee Members expressed serious concern about poor planning and budgeting on the government's part, especially as reflected by the use of special warrants.

Throughout the reviews, Members expressed misgivings about the nature of the supplementary funding requested by the government. Too often, the items listed appeared to reflect poor planning by government departments, rather than legitimate requests for supplementary funding to cover emergencies, unforeseen circumstances or approved new programs. For example, Members of the Standing Committee on Resource Management and Development noted that special warrants allow the government to make emergency

expenditures without approval of the Legislative Assembly. Committee Members were concerned and noted that most, if not all, of the special warrant items brought forward were not of a particularly urgent nature.

Madam Chair, Government Operations has similar misgivings. It appears that some departments may be using supplementary funding to fund items that this House may not necessarily approve of. The Members of the envelope standing committees and the Standing Committee on Government Operations intend to be very critical of any further requests for supplementary funding that represent poor planning by government departments.

The Standing Committee on Government Operations intends to arrange a meeting with the Minister of Finance in the near future. This meeting will specifically address the issue of supplementary funding and special warrants and the protocols with which these issues will be reviewed by the standing committees.

Now to cover the issues reviewed by the Standing Committee on Social Programs, I would like to ask the chairman of that committee, Mr. Enuaraq to continue.

Standing Committee On Social Programs Comments

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Tommy Enuaraq Baffin Central

Thank you, Madam Chair. Many of the items included in Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96, were discussed and explained during the Standing Committee on Social Programs review of business plans. Although the committee was concerned to see some numbers were higher than originally anticipated, there were not specific concerns with most of the items.

The only item the committee felt needed to be revised was the huge amount requested for medical travel and out-of-Territories hospitals. The department indicates that the amount was the result of poor analysis in making the decisions about things like savings from the Royal Alexandra Hospital agreement and the nearest-centre policy. They also indicated that in the past, there was nothing in place which encouraged those in the regional centres to be vigilant in attempting to save costs in these areas.

These items were reflected as an overall concern the committee had with many items in the supplementary appropriation. It appears that rather than being careful in planning and accountable for budgeted amounts, departments have been able to get away with shallow planning. The process has not held departments accountable for their planning or lack thereof. Instead, departments have used supplementary appropriations as a way of topping up errors which are a base deficiency or where they were not planned appropriately.

The committee believes supplementary appropriations should be a mechanism for dealing with emergencies, not as an excuse and bail-out for poor planning. Madam Chair, I would now like to ask the chairman of the Standing Committee on Resource Management and Development, Mr. David Krutko, to continue.

Standing Committee On Resource Management And Development Comments

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

February 18th, 1996

Page 69

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chair. In reviewing Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96, the Standing Committee on Resource Management and Development noted a number of concerns. The most significant was the apparent misuse of special warrants and a previous lack of planning on behalf of the department. Special warrants allow the government to make emergency expenditures without the approval of the Legislative Assembly. Committee Members were concerned and noted that most, if not all, the special warrant items brought forward were not of a particularly urgent nature.

The committee noted three special warrant items totalling $455,000 was spent in the Department of Renewable Resources. The committee was disappointed that the department could not justify why these expenditures, under the western NWT harvesters' assistance program, required the urgency of a special warrant. Committee Members were in strong support of this program, but disagreed with the way in which it was currently funded.

Committee Members were also concerned with a $500,000 special warrant issued to the Department of Economic Development and Tourism for the continued development of the Mortgage Investment Corporation. Again, no justification was presented as to why a special warrant was used to fund this expenditure.

Committee Members viewed these types of items as a misuse of special warrants. The committee, therefore, recommends that the government not approve future special warrants unless a true emergency situation exists and substantiation can be brought forward to the committee. Members would like to remind the government that the current fiscal situation does not leave room for supplemental appropriations and that, in the future, such additional funds will not be readily approved by the committee.

The committee recognizes that planning, at the best of times, is a difficult exercise. Nevertheless, Members expressed their concern that this and future supplemental appropriations not be used in an attempt to conceal poor budget planning practices. Tighter controls will be required in this area and will force departments to more accurately plan for expenditures.

And now, Madam Chair, I would like to ask the chairman of the Standing Committee on Infrastructure, Mr. Ed Picco, to continue.

Standing Committee On Infrastructure Comments

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Edward Picco Iqaluit

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Standing Committee on Infrastructure noted a number of concerns in their review of Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995 96, the most important of these is the use of special warrants.

Committee Members understand that special warrants were sometimes necessary to allow the government to make emergency expenditures without having to go for approval by the Assembly. However, many of the expenditures made under special warrants did not seem to be particularly urgent.

Of special concern to this committee were four special warrants totalling $3.0625 million for new spending in the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. Committee Members are very concerned that special warrants not be misused and, in fact, recommend a review of the legislation governing the use of special warrants and the practices followed to date by this government and previous governments.

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Excuse me, Mr. Picco. We just had a request that you slow down a little bit.

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Edward Picco Iqaluit

Sorry, Madam Chair. Following this review, Members will have to consider whether amendments to appropriate legislation will be necessary to ensure that special warrants are used properly.

Some of the items reviewed related to transfers of positions or responsibilities to communities. These included the transfer of community government liaison functions to the hamlets of Gjoa Haven, Pelly Bay and Taloyoak; transfer of an economic development officer position to the Kitikmeot Regional Community Economic Development Organization; and, the transfer of responsibility for property assessment to the city of Yellowknife. Committee Members noted that in the past, positions and responsibilities have been transferred to communities either without adequate financial resources or with financial resources which were later reduced or eliminated. The standing committee recommends that any transfer of positions or programs to communities not be used as a way for the government to reduce expenditures.

One special warrant, whose urgency was obvious, was for $231,500, again in Municipal and Community Affairs, to cover costs associated with the June 1995 evacuation of Norman Wells and Tulita, Fort Norman. However, Members were concerned about the mention of providing compensation to affected businesses. Committee Members want assurances that these funds are not being used to cover items which should have been covered by the businesses' own insurance coverage. While compensation for affected residents is certainly reasonable, the responsibility for protecting a business's finances should not fall upon the government with an incident such as this forest fire.

Another item which should be examined is consistency in accounting and reporting of expenditures among departments. For example, one item listed was the transfer of almost $1 million from MACA's capital budget to their operations and maintenance budget. This is to cover the community dust control program, which was recently transferred from Public Works and Services. This was a capital item in previous Public Works budgets, but MACA has seen fit to move it to O and M.

Committee Members are concerned that this may represent a lack of consistency in the classification, reporting and accounting of government expenditures. The committee suggests that the government examine their standards and policies in this area and ensure that expenditures are recorded in a consistent manner,

I would now like to return to the chairman of the Standing Committee on Government Operations, Mr. Roy Erasmus, to conclude this report.

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Mr. Erasmus, I will remind Members, in Committee of the Whole, you don't have to stand unless you wish to.

Conclusion

On behalf of the Members of the Standing Committees on Government Operations, Social Programs, Infrastructure and Resource Management and Development, I would like to thank the Ministers who appeared before our committees, as well as their stall, for their assistance and answers to the committee Members in their review.

This concludes our report on the review of Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance if he would like to call witnesses.

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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John Todd Keewatin Central

Yes, thank you. In the past, the Finance Minister dealt with supplementary appropriations as a whole. With the new process, we have the Ministers defend their appropriations, which I really appreciate. They are here. We can ask each individual Minister to go to the witness table or deal with it around the table here. I leave it up to you.

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Any comments or wishes from the Members in terms of which way you want to do this? Do you want the Ministers who are answering questions to go to the witness table or remain where they are?

---Interjection

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Stay where they are? Agreed?

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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John Todd Keewatin Central

Mr. Voytilla, the man for all seasons, is here in case there are any technical questions asked.

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

So Members agree that Minister Todd bring a witness into the proceedings.

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 2, 1995-96
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Could the Minister please introduce his witness for the record?