This is page numbers 199 - 230 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was nunavut.

Topics

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address

Page 216

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Henry's Reply

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address

Page 216

Seamus Henry Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, last Thursday, the Finance Minister introduced his 1996-97 budget. For the most part, the document presented was positive and a very good start to the job ahead. Much more has to be done.

I would like, Mr. Speaker, to reminisce for a few moments. We all came to this House as a new elected body. Each of us came with their spirits high; good reason to have high spirits, we just finished a popularity contest of sorts. Sufficient numbers of the community members where we live had faith in our ability to come to this Legislature and represent them and protect their rights and interests.

We all knew that the job was going to be easy. I certainly did. I have talked to enough people in my constituency over the previous year and have gotten such a good response to my ideas that I knew I must be right. Now, all I had to do was to go to the Legislature and bring the good news to the other 23, never once thinking that their solutions to the problems would be different than mine. Come to think of it, there aren't too many ways to stop spending more than you bring in. I thought it is that simple. We will have a happy group of campers and the public of the NWT will be so pleased with our efforts and everyone will live happily ever after.

Mr. Speaker, I was dreaming in colour. During my election campaign, I had made three commitments to my constituents. They were effective representation, I would speak up for them in the Legislature; economic fairness, a fair distribution of government dollars for all communities; and fiscal responsibility, which is not spending beyond one's means to pay.

We came to our first Caucus meeting and the process of orientation began. We were educated as to what Hansard was, how many copies we were entitled to and could we get more copies. I am not sure why anyone would want extra copies of Hansard, maybe their friends need some stimulating reading or perhaps they have a woodstove that needed extra fuel. We were taught how to speak in the House, how to answer questions or not to answer questions from the media, as the case may be; what can be said in the House and what can't; how to ask a question of the Minister in the House; and, the rules around the overused term ..supplementary questions."

Later on, when we got the important information out of the way, we got down to some real work; that of filling out forms for pension plans, dental plans, insurance plans, medical plans and, most important, how to read our pay slip and the number of times we would be getting them. Oh yes, there were the answers to those important questions: If we stayed for an extra committee meeting, did we get paid for an extra day? If we worked at the Assembly for more than a minimum of two hours in the morning and two hours in the afternoon, we would get paid for that too?

I recall the evening meeting where it seemed to go for hours discussing the use of alcohol in the Northwest Territories and whether we should allow alcohol to be used at Legislative Assembly functions. We went as far as sharing how each of us, as Members, dealt with alcohol in our own personal life. It was after that long, drawn-out meeting, that Mr. Todd came up to me and asked me how it was going. I advised him that it was a lot slower than I had expected and been used to in the business community, at which he replied, you will have to take it easy, lad, I nearly went nuts for the first six months.

--- Applause

I have a few more days to go to complete my six months and I am not sure I am going to get used to it in that time.

Getting back to the part about coming to this Legislature as one of 15 new Members, it was not long into the Caucus meetings that our new-found approach of working together seemed to take a turn for the worse. New Members felt they wanted to look at installing a Cabinet of new, unseasoned MLAs. It was a great exercise, but that is all. The present Cabinet should be congratulated on their posture as they did not panic, but listened and responded favourably to concerns that were expressed by new Members. As it turned out, most of the old seasoned MLAs got elected to Cabinet. Let's hope we can continue to say at the end of their term that all's well that ends well.

I think it is important to remember that we are also employees who have been hired for a four-year contract, with an option to renew at the employers' pleasure. All the more reason to be prudent with how we dispose of their money. Mr. Speaker, I have to give credit to the Finance Minister, who was consistent in communicating to our committees that he did not think that balancing the budget in one year was possible. As time went on and at the present time, the Members who think or want the Finance Minister to balance the budget are in a minority.

This situation is no reason for Members such as myself, who feel that we should be putting more urgency into balancing the budget sooner, bringing this position to the court of higher opinion, which is the general public of the Northwest Territories.

Mr. Speaker, I had the NWT Council for the Disabled conduct a telephone survey for me in my Yellowknife South riding in the two-week period between March 4th and 28th of this year. I surveyed 140 people, selected at random, from my constituency. I had them answer nine questions, one of which was do you believe the GNWT should balance this 1996-97 budget; 82 per cent said yes. Another question asked was do you feel that the GNWT can balance the budget in the 1996-97 year; 76 per cent said no. There are many ways to interpret these results. I would offer one potential way of looking at them. To the first question, a large number of constituents want the budget balanced. In response to the second question, there is a feeling that this government cannot get a handle on its finances. Of my constituents surveyed, 76 per cent do not believe that the Government of the Northwest Territories has the ability to balance the budget in the coming year. I know and accept that I have not been able so far to convince this government of the importance of balancing the budget each year.

I do not know of one MLA who does not want to balance the budget. I would suggest that that is a unanimous position. Everyone wants and knows how necessary it is to balance the budget; what we disagree on is when we are going to do it.

My analogy to the GNWT not balancing its budget is like a patient after being diagnosed with flesh-eating disease in his leg, saying to the doctor, okay, doctor, I realize the leg has to come off. Can you take the foot off this year? Next year, you can take off the part below the knee, and the following year you can take off the balance of the leg. Mr. Speaker, the patient had a sick leg so it had to be removed. The GNWT has a sick habit: spending too much, so it has to get rid of that sickness.

This government should inflict only one round of pain, rather than dishing out pain each year. It is not going to be any easier next year; we have to pay the piper, we have to fix the patient, we have to balance this budget, we have to take the pain now. This government does not have to cut more employees to balance its budget this year. This government does not have to make more reductions to education, social services or health care this year to balance the budget. We can reduce spending in many areas such as postponing the mortgage investment program which would be a saving of $5 million, postpone the construction of access roads which would save an additional $1.5 million, delete such items as spray painting equipment being purchased for airports -what I suggest: purchasing one piece of equipment and transporting it on to the next airport to paint the stripes on the runways. The proposed moorings and infrastructure to an already-deleted tank farm in Rankin Inlet would produce an additional savings of $2.5 million. If we balanced our budget, we would not pay out $3.5 million in interest the next year.

Mr. Speaker, if these initiatives were taken for starters, it would generate a saving to this government in this fiscal year of approximately $12.6 million. This is just a start to the numerous projects that we could postpone, rather than going into a deficit situation in this fiscal year. If we do not make the necessary cuts this year, we will have to cut even more next year to pay for the interest costs in the following year. We should not, as a government, inflict more pain than we have to; but, more importantly, we should inflict the pain only once.

Our government in the NWT is not like the ones in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Alberta, Ontario or Quebec in that we don't have the luxury of spreading cuts out over a number of years. These provinces have an economy that they can project for and promote growth and development. They have manufacturing, they have a large tax-paying population, they have control of their resources, something we do not have in the Territories. Even if things went exceptionally well with the northern accord, we would not have in the life of this government agreement that would help us in our financial situation. Now that diamonds have been found in Lac de Gras and copper in Voisey Bay, Labrador, I am not so optimistic that the federal government, with it's $600 billion debt, will be so willing to give up the rewards of this new-found treasure.

This government is projecting in this fiscal year a $43 million operating deficit. Added to this, we have an accumulated deficit as of March 31, 1996, of $41 million, for a total accumulated debt as of March 31, 1997, of $84 million. We still have clouds hanging over our head in the form of unknown cuts which we do not have any control over, such as further cutbacks to transfer payments by the federal government, a large, unresolved pay equity liability. What does this mean? It means that instead of making the necessary cuts this year to balance this budget, we will pay the banks $7 million in interest payments next year.

I think that money we will spend on interest payments could be better spent. As an example: $7 million that we will pay in interest to the banks would provide salaries for 100 employees, and that's calculating $70,000 per employee which I realize is high; to teach our children in school; to provide health care for our elderly; counsel our youth against the dangers of alcohol and drug abuse; provide police officers to protect those who can't protect themselves; assist in providing housing and food for those who can least afford to go without.

Mr. Speaker, 150 employees -- 75 in Yellowknife alone -- have been laid off. The workers have paid the price in job losses and wage rollbacks. It's time to show them in this next few weeks as we go through the budget debate exercise, that they are not the only sector that is being asked to carry the brunt of this financial exercise. I beg all Members of this House to keep an open mind for the residents of the NWT -- our employer -- to advise us, your MLAs, to do all things necessary to balance this 1996-97 budget.

Mr. Speaker, in summary, I would suggest that we should not put off until tomorrow what we can and should do today. Thank you.

--- Applause

Item 10: Replies To Budget Address
Item 10: Replies To Budget Address

Page 218

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Item 10, replies to Budget Address. Item 11, petitions. Item 12, reports of standing and special committees. Item 13, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 14, tabling of documents. Mr. Dent.

Item 14: Tabling Of Documents
Item 14: Tabling Of Documents

Page 218

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish to tabled the following document: Tabled Document 32-13(3), Nunavut Arctic College Program Relocation Impact Report. Thank you.

Item 14: Tabling Of Documents
Item 14: Tabling Of Documents

Page 218

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 14, tabling of documents. Mr. Arlooktoo.

Item 14: Tabling Of Documents
Item 14: Tabling Of Documents

Page 218

Goo Arlooktoo Baffin South

Mr. Speaker, I have three documents that I wish to table, Tabled Document 33-13(3) is a press release from Nunatsiaq News dated Monday, May

6, 1996, titled, "Urgent! Correction of Nunatsiaq News Story, Reporter Erred, Not Deputy Premier Goo Arlooktoo or NTI's Tagak Curley."

Tabled Document 34-13(3) is a letter from Tagak Curley, director of business development for NTI, regarding a Nunatsiaq News story in last Friday's newspaper.

Tabled Document 35-13(3) is a press release from Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated regarding a Nunatsiaq News story in their newspaper of last Friday, making reference to my point of privilege of the same day.

Item 14: Tabling Of Documents
Item 14: Tabling Of Documents

Page 219

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you. Item 14, tabling of documents. Item 15, notices of motion. Item 16, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 17, motions. Mr. Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

WHEREAS the report of the Chief Electoral Officer titled "Looking to the Future" has been tabled in this House;

AND WHEREAS the report covers the administration of the Northwest Territories general election of October 16, 1995, as well as administration of the Kitikmeot 1993 and Aivilik 1995 by-elections;

AND WHEREAS the report contains recommendations for amendments to the Elections Act and actions in preparation for the first elections of the two new Legislative Assemblies after division;

AND WHEREAS this report requires detailed consideration by a standing committee;

THEREFORE I MOVE, seconded by the honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, that Tabled Document 30-13(3), Report of the Chief Electoral Officer titled "Looking to the Future," be referred to the Standing Committee on Government Operations for detailed consideration;

AND FURTHER, that the Standing Committee on Government Operations report its findings with recommendations to the Legislative Assembly during the fall sitting.

Thank you.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Your seconder is not here. Mr. Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Henry has agreed to be the seconder.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Mr. Miltenberger, your motion is in order. To the motion.

Some Hon. Members

Question.

The Speaker Samuel Gargan

Question is being called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

--- Carried

Item 18, first reading of bills. Item 19, second reading of bills. Item 20, consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and other matters: Bill 11, Appropriation Act, 1996-97; Committee Report 1-13(3), Standing Committee on Government Operations Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates; Committee Report 2-13(3), Standing Committee on Infrastructure Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates; Committee Report 3-13(3), Standing Committee on Resource Management and Development Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates; and, Committee Report 4-13(3), Standing Committee on Social Programs Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates, with Mr. Steen in the chair.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 219

The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

I will call the committee to order. For consideration, we have Bill 11, Appropriation Act, 1996-97; Committee Report 1-13(3), Standing Committee on Government Operations Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates; Committee Report 2-13(3), Standing Committee on Infrastructure Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates; Committee Report 3-13(3), Standing Committee on Resource Management and Development Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates; and Committee Report 4-13(3), Standing Committee on Social Programs Report on the Review of the 1996-97 Main Estimates. How does the committee wish to proceed? Mr. Erasmus.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 219

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest that we deal with Bill 11, and start with the committee reports dealing with the main estimates.

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 219

The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Is it agreed with the committee that we deal with Bill 11 at this time?

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 219

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 219

The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Would the committee like to take a short break at this time?

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 219

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 219

The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

The committee will recess for 15 minutes.

--- SHORT RECESS

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

May 5th, 1996

Page 219

The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

I will call the committee to order. The first thing we will have is general comments by

Members on Bill 11, Appropriation Act, 1996-97. I will remind the Members that there's a 10-minute time limit on general comments. Have we any general comments by Members on the Appropriation Act? If there are no general comments by Members, we will then move to the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, and I will ask Mr. Dent to provide opening comments on his department's estimates.

Department Of Education, Culture And Employment

Minister's Introductory Remarks

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon, committee Members. We all know that northerners have high expectations for education, culture and employment programs. The expectations of and the direction provided by the public have shaped the budget that is before you today. The objectives outlined in my department's strategic plan will continue to influence how we reshape our programs in the face of declining resources.

Strengthening local decision-making and improvements to the quality and coordination of programs are priorities of this government. They're reflected in a lot of what we've achieved already; achievements such as: the new Education Act; improved access to information networks for schools, public libraries and community learning centres; and, the work done to reform income support, to name a few.

Achieving a lower budget target has not been easy. We've had to accommodate forced growth and base deficiencies of more than $17 million.

When we looked at where to spend our money, we ranked programs according to the importance of their key outcomes and our ability to meet the objectives and priorities of the territorial government.

So, yes, there are reductions, but let's look at the positive side. There are more than $7 million in new initiatives in this budget. I want to make sure we do all we can to strengthen early childhood and early intervention programming. I want to make sure students do better in school. I want to make sure there are more high school graduates and I want to make sure northerners are ready to take a job, particularly in mining and as Nunavut public servants.

Mr. Chairman, if we don't help out high-risk children early on, we know that they'll develop more serious problems later in life. We can make government dollars go further and help more kids if departments cooperate and we start earlier. That's why you'll see we're spending $1 million on early intervention work in the communities, in conjunction with the Department of Health and Social Services.

Helping students excel and, ultimately, graduate, can be challenging in remote communities. Access to learning resources are limited. We want to change that. There is soon going to be a digital communications network linking every community in the Territories.

Better technology means lower costs to this government. Better technology lets students learn more. Smarter students mean more graduates. More graduates means a better northern workforce and healthier communities.

This department has already done quite a bit to strengthen the northern workforce. Because of the community teacher education programs, we are moving toward the goal of having 50 per cent aboriginal educators in our schools. This year, the first graduates of Aurora College's nursing program will take up positions in the North.

We want northerners to get into careers that build upon their interests and skills, so we are proposing that $100,000 be used to train community career counsellors and a significant investment be made in a labour force development plan.

Mr. Chairman, mining is a big key to our future, it's an industry that could provide jobs to hundreds of northerners in the next few years. I want to make sure we don't miss the opportunity that exists here. Department representatives, Aurora College and BHP have been collaborating on skills training programs for the mining industry. These three partners can point to the success of a workplace literacy project in Lutsel K'e, which will serve as a model for similar projects.

Preparing Inuit for positions in the Nunavut government is another priority. We will continue to plan and implement training which will prepare Nunavut residents for opportunities stemming from division.

You may have heard about Investing in People. It's an initiative that's helped adults improve their education and receive valuable work experience. Investing in People was a cost-shared program with Ottawa. It has been a success. Unfortunately, the federal government has ended its participation. As a result, the $2 million which will be spent on this program this year comes entirely from our budget and it's only one-third of last year's total.

Mr. Chairman, this department's main estimates have been developed in consultation with the Standing Committee on Social Programs. It's been a useful way to develop a budget. I think the process has resulted in a budget that better reflects the needs and interests of northerners.

When I met with the committee, we talked about how to save money in administration. The committee wanted us to look at ways to develop more economic and integrated governing structures. We've done that. We're supporting the development of the Dogrib Community Services Board. It's an example of how to increase regional efficiencies in administration. We're exploring similar options in Nunavut communities.

We will soon be presenting a plan to the standing committee on how we're going to change our income support program. We've been looking at what other jurisdictions are doing, refining the funding formula, developing community framework agreements and revising the regulations to enable this.

Improving programs and services in some areas means there must be reductions in others. When we set priorities for this budget, we were determined to protect programs and services at the regional and community levels as much as possible. In line with that, we are proposing greater reductions in headquarters and administration support; reductions of approximately 15 per cent. A significant reduction in staff positions at headquarters will be required to meet this goal.

However, because most of our money is in programs, you will have noted significant reductions in schools, colleges and continuing education contributions, as well as income support and student financial assistance. School boards and the public colleges are making tough choices to accommodate these reductions.

We are also proposing to reduce the capital program from $35 million last year to about $25 million in 1996-97. This will be done mostly by delaying many planned projects for a year. The delays won't compromise health and safety standards and there's still going to be enough room for all the students.

Mr. Chairman, I'm confident my department's budget has met the challenge of balancing the need to reduce expenditures with the need to deliver high-quality programs. I welcome your committee's questions and comments. Thank you.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. I would now like to call on Mr. Roland to make comments on behalf of the Social Programs committee. Mr. Roland.

Standing Committee On Social Programs Comments

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 221

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to give the report of the Standing Committee on Social Programs on the review of the business plan and budget of the Department of Education, Culture and Employment.

The standing committee recognized that implementing all of the department's proposed reductions in a single year would have a significant impact on the education system. Members also acknowledge the complications that arise from the difference between the government's fiscal year and the education boards' and colleges' financial year. However, Members are concerned that next year there may be additional reductions necessary. Spreading cuts over an extended period may mean reductions on top of prior year reductions. While the standing committee supports Investing in People to reduce their dependence on social assistance, Members believe that investment must be within the limitations of our financial situation.

At this time, the standing committee reluctantly accepts the department's three-year phase-in plan for the reductions to schools, colleges and income reform. However, the standing committee expects the Minister to be aggressive in encouraging changes which may allow the 1997-98 business plans and budgets to reflect a shorter implementation period for these reductions.

The standing committee agrees with the Minister that we need a new and more innovative approach to income reform. As program reductions are made, there must be corresponding changes which open the boundaries of the

program and blend with other resources at the community level. There seems to be many pools of funding which should be brought together, so they can be used more effectively in the community. The standing committee asked the Minister to consider a variety of options under income reform including work for pay to provide much needed services in the community. The standing committee is not proposing regular 9:00 to 5:00 work, but suggests people could assist with jobs that need to be done such as assisting elders or helping with snow removal.

The standing committee Members believe strongly that people need the opportunity to contribute to their community and have pride in work done, rather than just receiving a handout from the government. There also needs to be consideration for creating an income support system which encourages individuals to try to earn as much of their own way as possible, rather than penalizing people. The standing committee also believes that income reform should include a review of those other programs which impacts on its effectiveness. In particular, the standing committee is concerned about the relationship between income support and the rent scale for social housing. The Minister has committed to bringing forward a potential model for income reform to the standing committee by June 1, 1996. The standing committee looks forward to reviewing the model.

The standing committee feels the student services process needs to be improved and service provided closer to the community level where possible. There should also be closer contact with social assistance to ensure people are receiving support from the appropriate program. The department is currently reviewing the student financial assistance program. The standing committee looks forward to the results of this review.

The standing committee believes that offering the first two years of an education degree through the teacher education program has been very valuable. However, it is often difficult for those mature students who have completed the two-year program to leave the North to complete their degrees. The standing committee encourages the government to offer the third year of a bachelor of education and begin work to offer the fourth year as well.

The department is currently reviewing how it provides language services. The standing committee has concerns in the way services are provided by the language bureau and looks forward to reviewing the results of this review.

The standing committee thinks schools and education boards should determine for themselves how to meet the budget targets. The standing committee requested that the department provide general guidelines to the boards which would include suggestions to:

- reduce administration before programs; pursue other avenues for reducing costs by combining resources with other boards in the region; and,

- exhaust all other possible areas for reductions before cuts are considered in the formula areas, territorial schools, inclusive schooling, aboriginal languages and cultural programs.

With fewer dollars and an ever-increasing number of students, space in schools will continue to be a concern for the government. In the past, the department reviewed the need for classroom space on a school-by-school basis. However, in order to make more efficient use of our limited resources, the department is now approaching the need for space from a community-wide perspective. The standing committee is very supportive of this approach. If a community has one school which is underutilized and another which is overutilized, the standing committee agrees that better ways of sharing the space available should be the solution rather than new schools.

The standing committee reviewed the new initiatives the department proposed. Members believe that these initiatives are examples of the philosophy of investing now for greater rewards and possible savings later. The standing committee supports the philosophy and, therefore, supports the proposed new initiatives.

One of the new initiatives -- alternative government structures -- caused the standing committee some concern. When the standing committee recommended that boards and departments need to explore options for combined administrations and other efficiencies at the community and regional level, it was assumed that this would be driven from the local level. In discussing the initiative, the department indicated that they were going to phase this in and try to develop a model which might work. The standing committee believes that solutions may be different in every region. Members would like to see the initiative take place in one year rather than spread over two or more years.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes the report of the Standing Committee on Social Programs on this department.

Bill 11: Appropriation Act, 1996-97
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The Chair

The Chair Vince Steen

Thank you, Mr. Roland. I will ask the Minister if he would like to bring in witnesses.