This is page numbers 321 - 355 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Topics

Committee Motion 8-13(7): Housing Funding Targeted For Aboriginal Housing (nwthc)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Capital, $21.642 million. Agreed?

Committee Motion 8-13(7): Housing Funding Targeted For Aboriginal Housing (nwthc)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Committee Motion 8-13(7): Housing Funding Targeted For Aboriginal Housing (nwthc)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Total expenditures, $43.276 million. Agreed?

Committee Motion 8-13(7): Housing Funding Targeted For Aboriginal Housing (nwthc)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Committee Motion 8-13(7): Housing Funding Targeted For Aboriginal Housing (nwthc)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

That concludes the NWT Housing Corporation. I would like to thank the Minister and his witnesses. The Sergeant-at-Arms can escort out the witnesses. Thank you.

Committee Motion 8-13(7): Housing Funding Targeted For Aboriginal Housing (nwthc)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion 8-13(7): Housing Funding Targeted For Aboriginal Housing (nwthc)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Mr. Chairman, we had agreed to Department

of Justice and we should proceed accordingly.

Committee Motion 8-13(7): Housing Funding Targeted For Aboriginal Housing (nwthc)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Does the committee agree?

Committee Motion 8-13(7): Housing Funding Targeted For Aboriginal Housing (nwthc)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Committee Motion 8-13(7): Housing Funding Targeted For Aboriginal Housing (nwthc)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Could I ask the Minister of Justice if he has any opening comments? Mr. Kakfwi.

Committee Motion 8-13(7): Housing Funding Targeted For Aboriginal Housing (nwthc)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before we begin a line for line examination of the Department of Justice, 1999-2000, I would like to provide a brief overview of the Department of Justice, its activities and the key programs and legislative initiatives planned for the upcoming year.

The Department of Justice is responsible for the administration of justice in the Northwest Territories. Our chief objective is in partnership with the RCMP and the Crown to ensure the safety and security of communities. This objective remains challenging as the factors which lead to a high rate of crime, such as substance and alcohol abuse, continue to be problems with many of our communities.

In this budget the Department of Justice has identified additional resources in the areas of corrections, community justice and policing in order to fulfil our ongoing role with respect to the safety of communities. These investments, which I will describe in greater detail shortly, will directly enhance the security of the people in the communities of the Northwest Territories.

We have also identified additional resources in the areas of legal aid and legal registries. Again, these investments will be of benefit to northern residents and will help the legal framework required for business and community development. We will also be proceeding with a number of legislative initiatives, many of which have had to be delayed because of the crowded pre-division legislative agenda. Some of these legislative initiatives were first proposed by this Assembly, by ordinary Members and we will now have the opportunity to begin work on them.

Corrections. This budget will mark the initiation of the much needed expansion of the Yellowknife Correctional Centre. This expansion is necessary to address the serious overcrowding and safety issues we now face. These capital improvements will be the first step in improved facilities and programming to support offender healing and rehabilitation. In 1999-2000 the creation of a stand alone probation service will also be a significant improvement in support for offenders and their healing and for communities in assuming a greater role in dealing with members who break the law. The creation of a stand alone probation service will mean more offenders will have the opportunity to safely serve their sentence in the community. An effective probation service will also play an important role in providing program referrals and support to offenders. The expansion of the Yellowknife Correctional Centre and a stand alone probation service are important initiatives which I feel will make a significant difference in reintegrating offenders into community life and reducing the chance that they will re-offend.

This budget also reflects an ongoing commitment to wilderness camps. These camps offer an important programming option for those offenders who choose to take advantage of them.

Finally, the department's Corrections Division will continue to offer training programs to ensure that the maximum number of local people can assume positions within territorial correctional facilities. Currently the percentage of aboriginal employees within every community facility exceeds the percentage of the aboriginal population within those communities.

Community Justice. This budget reflects an increase in the amount of funding available to community justice committees. These committees were first established with a mandate to handle the division of youth under the former Young Offenders Act. Now, most committees deal with adults as well as youth. Increasingly, they are also being asked to assume a greater role by other justice and community groups. The increase in the amounts paid to communities will help committees respond to this increased demand by allowing them to increase their honoraria, meet more frequently, hire part-time coordinators or fund activities like sending young offenders out with elders on the land. A review of the community justice initiative, which will be complete in the coming months, will identify other ways in which the department can best support communities in their efforts around community justice.

Policing. Through internal reallocation, the department has also ensured that there will be a full staff complement of RCMP officers in the Western Territory. We are also continuing to work with the RCMP to ensure that programs such as the Community Constable Program and the Auxiliary Constable Program remain an important part of community policing. Currently the RCMP "G" Division is supported by 27 RCMP auxiliary constables and 15 community constables. This number is expected to increase with another community constable training course planned for May. There are currently 15 aboriginal RCMP members within "G" Division. The RCMP has also implemented an Aboriginal Developmental Policy, which will ensure that more of "G" Division's operational and administrative positions are staffed by aboriginal officers. We are seeing a positive trend in the RCMP becoming more representative of the communities they serve. The department will continue to play an important role in ensuring this trend continues.

In conclusion, I would like to say that this budget reflects an emphasis on those areas most important to communities. The investment we are making in this budget should produce tangible benefits to communities in terms of improved safety and security. Mr. Chairman, that concludes my opening remarks. Thank you.

Committee Motion 8-13(7): Housing Funding Targeted For Aboriginal Housing (nwthc)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 348

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Does the chairman of the committee have comments? Mrs. Groenewegen.

Committee Motion 8-13(7): Housing Funding Targeted For Aboriginal Housing (nwthc)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Standing Committee on Social Programs met on November 19, 1998, to consider the business plan for the Department of Justice and again on March 18, 1999, to consider the draft 1999-2000 Main Estimates for the Department of Justice. Committee Members were impressed with certain aspects of the Department of Justice's business plan, such as the informatics plan and the Affirmative Action Plan. However, Members were disappointed with the lack of detail in setting reference points and benchmarks for attaining the department's stated goals. The department has committed to providing last year's financial figures in future business plans so that committee Members can

conduct their review with full knowledge of the facts and departmental trends. The committee noted in its review of the 1999-2000 draft Main Estimates for the Department of Justice a $594,000 increase in operations and maintenance costs from the number contained in the business plan attributable in the increased personnel costs associated with collective bargaining and a $4,000 reduction in capital funding related to the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre parking lot.

The Affirmative Action Plan included in the human resource implication section in the business plan contained sufficient detail to give the committee a good understanding of the department's current affirmative action status, as well as its plans for the future. Committee Members were disappointed that the Affirmative Action Plan achieved results in the Corrections Program while failing to address the other programs in Justice. However, the department's placement of aboriginal candidates in developmental positions in Corrections is an excellent way of improving aboriginal representation at the managerial level.

In summary, the reporting process is commendable. However, more focus must be placed on other areas in the department. In addition, committee Members stressed that annual performance appraisals are a valuable management tool to gain employee feedback on the success or failure of the departmental goals and strategies and to gauge whether the department is being successful in implementing its stated goals. Also, in this time of stress and anxiety surrounding division, it is important to provide a sounding board for employees so that they can feel a part of the departmental team. The committee recommends that the Department of Justice examine opportunities to include aboriginal managerial developmental positions in program areas other than Corrections. If necessary, these developmental positions should include an educational component if the candidate is lacking in some required skills that could only be obtained in a post- secondary institution.

During the review of the business plans, committee Members were pleased with the progress made in the Community Constable Program. It was acknowledged that this is a valuable program to smaller communities and the RCMP officers who serve us. In the larger communities, committee Members believed that the Auxiliary Constable Program needs to be promoted as a positive way of dealing with the policing shortages facing northern communities.

During the business plan review, the committee had requested that the department investigate the possibility of using the Aboriginal Justice Training Centre in British Columbia for the training of community constables. The committee notes that the department has decided not to pursue this option citing satisfaction with the RCMP Training Depot in the fact that the community constables work closely with RCMP officers and should be trained in RCMP methodologies.

With the coming diamond mine, the Northwest Territories may attract a more sophisticated criminal element, and the RCMP will need resources to combat this. The committee recommends that the department and the Premier's office apply more pressure to their federal counterparts to increase the policing budget for the Northwest Territories and to ensure that services and support staff related to northern policing stay in the north.

As with other programs within the Department of Justice, committee Members were concerned with the lack of measurable results that could be attributed to the Wilderness Camp Program. There was total agreement among committee Members that this program should be valuable in keeping first-time and minimum risk offenders from being exposed to the more hardened criminal element in our correctional centres. However, Members felt that in the absence of quantifiable results showing recidivism rates of the inmates who have gone through the Wilderness Camp Program, the committee's faith in the program needed objective justification. Committee Members believe in the merits of the wilderness camp and appreciate receiving further information on per diem rate and on the areas of the Northwest Territories that may not be adequately served. Committee Members also believe the department needs to make a greater effort to promote the wilderness camp option in the general public as a positive government policy to the judicial system as a viable sentencing option and to the correctional service as a way to deal with most low risk offenders. The committee Members noted that the department works with Corrections Canada to ensure that eligible federal prisoners from the Northwest Territories can be placed in wilderness camps.

Committee Members are concerned that there is no apparent methodology for program evaluation of wilderness camps. It is felt that each operator must be evaluated as to the quality and quantity of programming offered and the qualifications of the staff. This relates to a committee concern that the present per diem is inadequate to ensure the viability of wilderness camps, particularly if there is more than one operator in the community or area. It may be necessary to limit the number of wilderness camp operators to ensure the long term goals of the department are met. Committee Members are not convinced that the per diem method of payment ensures the long term success of the program. If operators cannot maintain equipment and staffing levels due to under utilization of their wilderness camps, it is likely that they would not be able to gear up to take in the maximum number of offenders they are allowed in their facilities. Committee Members would like to see a blend of core funding and per diem rate method of funding the wilderness camp operators be instituted. It is felt that this would lend a sense of permanency to the operators and ensure the long-term success of this valuable program. The committee had recommended, in the review of the business plan, full time wilderness camp operators be funded on a combined core funding and per diem rate basis to ensure the viability of the program. The department states that it is not possible in the light of the amount of funding available to the program.

Members of the committee would like to encourage the department in the development of its own stand alone probation service. The separation of the probation task from the social service task will improve social service delivery at the local level and provide increased sentencing options for the judiciary and community justice committees. Members would like to receive regular updates on the status of the stand along probation service as it is developed.

Committee Members were impressed at the level of detail that the department provided in the business plan. The level of detail gave Members a good understanding of the problems facing the department and the strategies the department intends to implement to resolve its information system shortfalls. Members look forward to updates on the department's progress. The committee recommends that the Department of Justice work in conjunction with other departments in the social programs envelope to develop common information system strategies, where possible, and work with other government departments in developing common computer platforms.

Committee Members realize that the corrections facilities in the Northwest Territories are overcrowded and that, as a result, space to run relevant inmate programming is not available. It is felt that the department is doing what it can under adverse conditions, however, committee Members believe that as program space becomes available through redesign and renovations at the Yellowknife Correction Centre, the department must be able to step in and fulfil its mandate to provide relevant programming to inmates. The committee encourages the department to monitor this closely so that it is able to implement more programming as soon as space becomes available. It is also felt the department has to lend greater credence to the wilderness camps as a viable and important part of corrections programming.

The department had set many goals and projected outcomes in the business plan, however, in the absence of any defining benchmarks, committee Members feel that they were unable to measure the department's success against next year's business plan. Committee Members also hope that improvements to the information system would enable the department to provide relevant statistics to measure success in meeting departmental goals. The committee looks forward to progress in next year's business plans. This is the third year that the committee has conducted its business plan review in the absence of defining goals and objectives quantified by measurable benchmarks. Committee Members are concerned that in the absence of measurable benchmarks they are, in effect, giving carte blanche to the department.

The committee recommends that the department develop defined goals and objectives as quantified by measurable benchmarks. Committee Members were concerned that the business plans do not currently contain references to planned projects under the P3 initiative and made a recommendation that P3 projects be listed in the business plan. This information is necessary so that committee Members can have a true understanding of all requirements of the department and so that the committee can ensure adequate, forward planning by the department in meeting the future operations and maintenance requirements of any proposed P3 project The committee was pleased that the department agreed with the recommendation and will provide a listing of P3 projects in future business plans and Main Estimates.

All persons are now assumed to be eligible for legal aid under the presumed eligibility policy. Persons no longer have to apply and wait for a decision on whether they are eligible for legal aid. Committee Members could accept the majority of arguments that the Minister put forward on the effectiveness of presumed eligibility. However, in the absence of any quantifiable statistics, it is still hard to justify the committee's faith in the program. Members look forward to the implementation of the legal aid information system in the upcoming fiscal year and discussion on the success of presumed eligibility during the next business plan review.

Committee Members appreciated the opportunity to have a wide ranging discussion on the residential school abuse issue during the review of the business plans and main estimates. Members were impressed with the concept of an alternative dispute mechanism, as proposed by the Grollier Hall survivor's group. The use of an alternative dispute mechanism would remove the need for costly court proceedings through the use of negotiation. The opportunity for the department to work proactively with the survivors to reach a mutually acceptable solution must be pursued vigorously by the department. Committee Members are, however, concerned that any solution arising out of the successful use of the alternative dispute mechanism should not intrude on the lives of any persons who have dealt with their own issues surrounding the abuse that occurred at Grollier Hall.

Regarding any monetary compensation for the abuse suffered in residential schools, committee Members concur with the Minister that there should be a methodology of validating any claim. While committee Members do not wish to see any particularly onerous criteria attached to the validation of any claim, it is necessary to formulate a validation process to protect the public interest. Committee Members would be interested in reviewing the criteria for monetary compensation once it is developed.

Committee Members are interested in the appointment of a special advisor to the Premier on residential school abuse. Members believe that the issue of residential school abuse is of such a magnitude that it warrants the appointment of a special advisor to help the Minister and department develop approaches to deal with this important issue affecting the lives of many northerners. The appointment of a special advisor would demonstrate to Members of the general public that this government is serious in its strategies to deal with residential school abuse. The special advisor could also serve as a central contract authority for victims of residential school abuse or for persons who have encountered physical or sexual abuse in government-run institutions. Committee Members are of the opinion that there is an opportunity to access some federal funds to provide treatment to inmates whose lives have been adversely impacted by the abuse they suffered in a residential school. The committee was pleased with the department's promise to work with aboriginal organizations to develop programming for those inmates with issues arising from residential school abuse. The government must develop a proactive approach to dealing with the issue of residential school abuse. All departments must work together to identify the magnitude of the problem and offer all possible support to the survivors. The committee would like to be kept apprised of progress on this issue and the measures being taken by the government to support the survivors of residential school abuse.

Committee Members could not help but feel that they were blind sided by the department's presentation of a need for a stand alone courthouse during the business plan review. There was no mention, in the last two business plans, that this was a requirement. Committee Members are not adverse to a stand-alone courthouse. However, there are several more steps that the department will have to take before the committee could support this request. The committee requires more information on financing options. Committee Members strongly believe that the stand alone courthouse must become a part of the Department of Justice's capital planning process. Initially committee Members feel that the issue of a stand alone courthouse cannot exist outside of the planning process. Should another financing option come forward such as the one proposed by Polar Panda Developments in their letter of January 15th, 1999, and be accepted by the government, the building of the courthouse could then move forward outside the capital planning process. There will have to be further discussion between the department and the committee before the committee can adopt any definite position. The committee recommends that further study of other viable options be undertaken by the department on the need for a new courthouse.

Committee Members strongly believe in the delivery of justice at the community level where appropriate. Sentencing circles, the involvement of elders in the justice system, and wilderness camps are excellent examples of delivering justice at the community level that must be supported by this government. With division, committee Members believe that this is the perfect opportunity to re-examine justice at the community level. Committee Members support the department's intention to sponsor a conference on community justice in the new Northwest Territories. Committee Members are well aware of the overwhelming workload placed on the staff charged with delivering the activity of maintenance enforcement. To help the staff in discharging their duties, it is strongly recommended that all government computer systems be adapted to red flag any person with outstanding obligations, informing the staff of the maintenance enforcement unit as to the location of persons who have maintenance enforcement judgements against them should make it easier for staff to track these people in the Northwest Territories. The renewal of driver's licences, registration of vehicles, and access to health care services are three examples that could be used by the government to track persons owing money under maintenance enforcement judgements. The committee recommends that government computer systems be adapted to assist the maintenance enforcement unit in tracking persons in default under maintenance orders. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 8-13(7): Housing Funding Targeted For Aboriginal Housing (nwthc)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Does the committee have some motions to present? Mrs. Groenewegen.

Committee Motion 9-13(7): Aboriginal Managerial Development (justice)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Mr. Chairman, as a result of the overview of the committee, there are a number of motions that we would like to proceed with. Mr. Chairman, I move that this committee recommends that the Department of Justice examine opportunities to include aboriginal managerial development positions in program areas other than corrections; and further, if necessary, these developmental positions should include an educational component if the candidate is lacking in some required skills that could only be attained through a post-secondary institution.

Committee Motion 9-13(7): Aboriginal Managerial Development (justice)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has being called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried. Mrs. Groenewegen.

Committee Motion 10-13(7): Increase To The Policing Budget (justice)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 351

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that this committee recommends that the Department and the Premier's office apply more pressure to our federal counterparts to increase the policing budget for the Northwest Territories and to ensure that services and support staff related to northern policing stay in the north.

Committee Motion 10-13(7): Increase To The Policing Budget (justice)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 351

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Abstentions? The motion is carried. Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion 11-13(7): Social Envelope Cooperation To Develop Common Information System Strategies (justice)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that this committee recommends that the Department of Justice work in conjunction with other departments in the social programs envelope to develop common information system strategies

where possible and work with other government departments in developing common computer platforms.

Committee Motion 11-13(7): Social Envelope Cooperation To Develop Common Information System Strategies (justice)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Abstentions? Motion is carried. Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion 11-13(7): Social Envelope Cooperation To Develop Common Information System Strategies (justice)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, just before we proceed with the other committee motions, I move that we extend sitting hours until we finish this department.

Committee Motion 11-13(7): Social Envelope Cooperation To Develop Common Information System Strategies (justice)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

There is a motion on the floor to extend sitting hours. The motion is not debatable To the motion. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion 12-13(7): Development Of Defined Goals And Objectives/measurable Benchmarks (justice)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that this committee recommends that the department develop defined goals and objectives as quantified by measurable benchmarks.

Committee Motion 12-13(7): Development Of Defined Goals And Objectives/measurable Benchmarks (justice)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 352

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. The motion is in order. To the motion. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried. Committee motions. Mr. Erasmus.

Committee Motion 13-13(7): Study Of Viable Options On The Need For A New Courthouse (justice)
Item 20: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

April 26th, 1999

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Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that this committee recommends that further study of other viable options be undertaken by the department on the need for a new courthouse.