This is page numbers 721 - 753 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was housing.

Topics

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe the Minister of Justice would be better prepared to answer that question.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

The Minister of Financing is deferring the question to the Minister of Justice. Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For a number of years now, the Department of Justice has had virtually no capital. It has virtually had no capital budget for a number of years because this legislature, in its wisdom, has allocated the meagre capital that it has had at its disposal to other priority items. This is the very first time we have capital allocated to build new correctional facility and/or to renovate. But the intent clearly is to provide better or new facilities to young and adult offenders. That is the functional intent of the money that has been allocated and the decisions that were made by Cabinet and FMB. We have had no program space, and there is what you would call a crisis in the correctional facilities of the North.

The adult facility in Yellowknife is considered substandard and inadequate. The young offenders facilities, obviously, are no longer acceptable, and we are compelled by the fire marshal's order to provide new facilities by July, 2001. We need program space for the adults, and we need program space for the young offenders. We need recreational facilities for the young offenders as well. Under the original plan to do renovations to the adult facility, it was going to take seven years and a new revised capital estimates of $35 million. The decisions at that time by Cabinet in June, 1998, and in September, 1998, there was no consultation, but the decisions were made. The decisions were made then. It is my view that in the interest of the inmates, the young offenders, and really that is our responsibility, my responsibility as a Minister and our responsibility as a Cabinet, to provide adequate services and facilities to those in our care, and those are incarcerated people, the young offenders, who are required by an order, to provide these facilities within a time frame.

It is my view that we are compelled, in the public interest, to proceed to quit revisiting decisions, implement the decisions made by Cabinet and FMB, which was started well over a year ago and that we go ahead with design, finalize the blueprints, give those out in whatever form we decide and start with site preparation and construction by the latter part of next year which should see the facilities hopefully being completed somewhere in the spring of 2001 so that we can have it occupied and functional by July, 2001. This is what we need to do. The Members should not forget that there is a facility that you have not mentioned once yet, the female young offenders facility, which was located in Inuvik, again by Cabinet in the spring of 1998. Nobody has put that into the picture. Cabinet has decided that decision would stay as well. In the interest of the public, I would say we are compelled to act. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Erasmus.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The intent of providing better facilities, better programs to rehabilitate inmates and young offenders is a great one. I have been promoting this for years. We have absolutely no problem with that. We have no problem with the two projects. The problem is putting youth and adults together. We have been told yes, it happens some place, we do not know where. We cannot say where it is, but we do know it happens. Well, we do not know that. We do not know if the general public will accept this even if it has been done someplace else. This project has gone from a seven year project, where you would take $4 million a year out of the budget, to now all of sudden I think it is $35 million or $30 million, whatever, taken out of the budget in two years. Two years from now, this month, that building will be finished. That is a huge, huge change, which the committee structure was put into place to address. We are not saying, kill the project. All we want is a proper consultation with proper processes followed. Read the motion. Maybe you should be able to read a few more words further. It is planning and implementation processes for the adjusted design. The two projects can still proceed, but when you put it together, it is a totally different project. We should be consulted.

The Minister had some problem about my saying that the youth and the adults would be in the same facility. I cannot remember my exact words. Maybe we can get a description of this project. Will these two different groups of people, the youth and the adult inmates, be in a building that is somehow attached?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I can deal with the financial part of the question, and that would be that the financing is proposed to be spread over four years rather than seven. The other questions the Member asks could better be answered by the Minister of Justice.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Minister Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 746

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The general intent is to provide facilities in the same geographic area. They are not even visible by each other. To find a way within the parameters of legislation to have, for instance, the young offenders have access to a gymnasium and perhaps some other facilities that the adult offenders would also have access to, that is the intent. It may be what you would say is podular in design. It may be separate but connected. We have not drawn up the blueprints, but we will begin the design that will lead into blueprints.

If there is interest, we would be pleased to involve those MLAs that would have time to get off the campaign trail this fall to be involved in the design and planning of it. As the Minister, I will be in office until hopefully at least the latter part of December or January, so I can provide that. We can be involved in the work, and we will undertake to get into the design. The design is really the part that I think you would be interested in, so we would be quite happy to provide that to Members. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Erasmus.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Is the Minister offering to go through the proper consultation process?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Kakfwi.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Madam Chairperson, we have to get into the business of designing what it is that we are willing to pay for. We have the money. We just have to do the work to design something that we want or pick a design that we want. I am offering to involve Members of the Legislature, along with myself, in that as I get information, to inform them of it. A most generous offer. I should note again that these were approved by the Legislature and by Cabinet well over a year ago. There was no idea at all of what these facilities would look like, but we went ahead anyway. As I say, if you are interested in knowing what the facilities are going to look like, I would be very pleased to keep you informed of it. Thank you.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Erasmus.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

Roy Erasmus Yellowknife North

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It is interesting to note that the department has been warehousing inmates for years with no programs and proper space. Now all this whole schemozzle, putting youth together with adults because of a gymnasium. That is it? That is the Minister's reasoning for putting these guys together, so they can share a gym? Very compassionate. I do not agree. We do not have the money. The Premier said the other day that we might have to borrow the money. I am sure that is what he said in this House. If the Premier is saying that we might have to borrow the money to do this project, could I have an explanation of how someone can say that we have the money to do this? How do you reconcile the two statements?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Erasmus. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The Premier responded to a question from yourself, Madam Chairperson, about how capital projects are financed. Typically the government uses a variety of forms of financing from cash on hand to short-term borrowings to long-term borrowings, depending on what it takes to finance the operations of the government. In this situation, it had been proposed that to carry on with the plan as was first projected, we would have been spending $35 million. As things stand now, we will be spending $30 million, so in fact we have found a way to do this less expensively than we might otherwise have done. The government typically chooses the best way to finance a project by what its needs are at any given time. The government does borrow money. In fact, when I became Minister of Finance, we were some $40 million in debt in short-term notes. I believe that figure is probably much reduced by now, but it all has to do with how our finances, our revenues flow. We do often borrow money..

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. I have Mr. Morin and Mr. Krutko. Mr. Morin.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 747

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It is interesting, I do not know if there is a lack of understanding or if there is just not a will at all, once a decision is made, to listen to any other input on it. I see the slipping and the sliding. A renovation can be changed to build a new building because the function of the program delivery has not changed. That is amazing. It has not changed the project. That is totally, totally amazing. The next thing we are going to hear in this Legislative Assembly is probably that we have now decided to build a brand new highway between Fort Rae and Yellowknife instead of reconstructing the old one over many years - and we can do that all on our own - because the function of the program delivery has not changed. There are still going to be the same vehicles going over and over it. It is the same type of issue. Some of us may be going on the campaign trail later, but I think some are there already.

It is amazing to hear the Minister, who did not have the decency or the foresight to follow the process and consult with the committee or Members that it affects, now offer for us to have some input into the building design. He is going to be involved. I do not know what his qualifications are, but he is going to be involved. There are a lot of people and organizations in Canada that say these cement buildings with bars, stuck on the outskirts of populated areas to house aboriginal inmates, do not do their job. The numbers of people going in there just keep going up and up and up, and there is never any change. The numbers just increase. I have seen programs and talked to people. People are taking different approaches on how to house and give program delivery to aboriginal inmates. There are different approaches all through Canada. It seems ironic, Madam Chairperson, that in the Northwest Territories, where aboriginal people are just about the majority, close to 50 percent of the population, we are going to build a building to warehouse inmates. I think it is safe to say it is over 90 percent aboriginal people in our correctional centres, but there is no imagination to do anything different.

Before this Minister became the Minister, the previous Minister had no choice but to make the decisions he made, for the simple reason that you are talking about a renovation of a building. Nothing else, just a renovation. You had to do it because of a fire marshal's order. Now all of a sudden you have brand new dollars. You are going to build a brand new facility. What do they want to build? They want to build a cement building with bars on the windows and a gym that young offenders and adult offenders can share, and I believe it is a kitchen that they both get to share as well. I do not know if that is the answer at all. I do not even know if this is the proper place to put a brand new building of that type. I do not even know, if you have $35 million kicking around, if that is the right approach. I do not know that. I do not have the information that you all have. What I do know is that if you take the opportunity to consult with the standing committee, if you take the opportunity to consult with MLAs and other interest groups, if you have the time, maybe somebody with some qualifications, maybe somebody with some experience may have another answer. Then again, maybe those same people will say, you are doing the right thing, that is the right thing to do. I do not know that. We have not been given the opportunity to go explore that. The Minister says this is the first time his department has a capital expenditure budget. Well, if it is the first time, he should attempt to do it right. He should attempt to make the right decision. But then alas, again, you would never want to question the Minister that knows what is good for all because he has made the decision. He went south. I think he went to Alberta and Saskatchewan. I am not sure where he went, but he went somewhere anyhow where these facilities exist. No, no I am bragging you up, Mr. Minister. You are such a great guy with great vision. Very short-sighted vision but great, anyhow.

But what I cannot understand is what we are attempting to do and we are meeting great resistance from the government is to have the ability to go out and get some advice as well. We would like that opportunity as well. You have had the advice of your departments, of the bureaucracy, of the people in the system. I do not know if you had advice from people outside the system, from the inmates themselves. I do not know if you have gotten that advice. I have not seen any of that information. Maybe this is the greatest decision that was made in the 13th Legislative Assembly, or is going to be made. I do not know that.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 748

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

When we are speaking, Members, we should refrain from speaking directly to the Minister we are talking about. We should refer to them as second, not in first. You would have to say he because you will be speaking through the Chair. I just wanted to remind Members of that, refrain from speaking directly to the Minister. Thank you. Mr. Morin.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

July 30th, 1999

Page 748

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you. You know that this is the first time, as the Minister said, that he has a budget in Justice, and it is probably long overdue. But I still have serious concerns about the process followed. No matter how they want to slip and slide around this issue, this is a new project. It is as simple as that. The scope of work has changed to a new building. It is as simple as that. Why the government would not want to go out and meet with the standing committee responsible and get some other advice. This is a huge expenditure. Previously the decision was made, you had no choice but to spend the money at that facility because it was a renovation decision. There are no questions about Inuvik's facility. That never, ever changed. It never, ever changed. As far as my understanding, it never, ever changed. It was always to be in Inuvik, it is still there. But Cabinet made so many great decisions that I do not remember them all.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 748

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Morin. Your ten minutes is up. I will move on now to Mr. Krutko and we will return to you again if you have further comments, at the discretion of the Chair. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 748

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Madam Chairperson, I would like an opportunity to respond to some of Mr. Morin's comments please?

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 748

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. I am sorry that I overlooked giving you that opportunity, Mr. Dent. I was not viewing them as questions more as comments. Please feel free to do that. Mr. Dent.

Motion 44-13(7): Termination Of Planning For New Yellowknife Correctional Centre
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 748

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

I agree that they were more comments than questions, Madam Chairperson, but I do take offence to being accused of slipping and sliding. The Member will probably be aware that in September, 1998, FMB approved the Department of Justice's submission for funding to support a comprehensive plan for community justice and corrections in response to the Evans Report. That plan identified the need to significantly expand the Yellowknife Correctional Centre to deal with serious overcrowding and lack of programming facilities. When he says that the scope of the program has changed, he is wrong. The scope of the project has not changed. I am sorry, but his definition of scope and mine are obviously different. I would argue that historically, this government is, this Assembly and all the Members of this Cabinet and previous Members, have made similar changes and they have always been considered as not changing the scope of the project.