This is page numbers 721 - 753 of the Hansard for the 13th Assembly, 7th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was housing.

Topics

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Agreed. Thank you. The Department of Justice, capital, community justice and corrections, not previously authorized, -$2,730,887. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In regard to the specific project, in the budget in regard the main estimates, there was $4 million allocated for a retrofit of the existing facilities. I would like to know why has there been a change in this project without it being approved by the Members of this House.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson, Cabinet and FMB were presented with the option of spending significantly more money to renovate the correctional centre or saving approximately $5 million by doing the project over approximately four years instead of seven and building new. The decision was to make that change and save the taxpayer some money.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

I believe the other two projects that we were looking at, were talking about realizing that we were in a financial crunch when it comes to capital projects. One of the initiative

we were looking at was a P3 process to look at some of these projects. But in the case of this project, it was going to be a retrofit of $4 million spread out over a period of time of $24 million, but for myself, I support the initiative of renovating the existing facility and also realizing that we are limited on the amount of capital projects we would like to see in the Northwest Territories. But for us to put all our eggs in one basket, I do not find that being fair to the other regions or communities in the new Western Territory.

We sit here, we talk about community justice and also trying to get communities more involved in the justice systems in our communities and trying to deal with those problems at home. But I believe that the amount of money that is going to be spent here, all we are doing is basically entrenching the concept that there will be a trend that is starting to institutionalize people instead of trying to help them and deal with their problems in the communities and also deal with the problems with the families and finding new mechanisms. There was a report in the past where it talked about on the land programs to get people housed in facilities.

There were two areas located, one was in my riding of MacKenzie Delta and Aklavik. There was supposedly $500,000 that was going to be put into that project, which was $50,000 put into planning, and that was the end of it. We talk about trying to find new ways and new methods of dealing with our problems. I believe we have to put more emphasis in the area of prevention than basically institutionalizing people. I would like to ask the Minister, is that opportunity still going to be available to other regions and other constituencies to consider those community correction programs to look at on the land programs to house people in camps and whatnot than have them put in all this facility?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. It would be difficult to argue with the issue of prevention being better than trying to cure the problem of incarceration or the problems that cause incarceration. I certainly agree that prevention is one of the best ways to approach some of our society's problems. Unfortunately, we have a situation where we have to deal with a certain number of people right now. The facilities that are provided for those people are unacceptable. We have been told by people ranging from those involved with the Evans Report to the fire marshal that we have to deal with concerns. I am sure the Member would not want us to leave people in the sort of situation in which they are. I would certainly hope that we could still continue to see an expansion of on-the-land programs. From what I have seen personally, I think they tend to be extremely successful. It does not however take away from the fact that we are still going to have a certain number of people who will not qualify for those programs and are going to have to house.

In this situation, the initial budget that was presented to the standing committee in this House was fairly imprecise that time. The $28.3 million was the estimate we had. As I understand it, sometime after the budget planning process, after going to committees, and after the budget books had been prepared, Ferguson Simek Clark came back and said, in fact, to build this over seven years is going to cost you $35 million. Conversely, you can build this project with the same scope of the project as originally proposed, $5 million less. In other words, $30 million rather than $35 million if you built it over four years instead of seven years. We were presented with the opportunity to either save $5 million over what the cost was going to be to achieve the same functional program, as presented to committee and to this House, or spend $5 million more to do the same thing.

It would have been irresponsible of us not to commit to the saving of this money. I would hope that this saving would allow us to put monies into other programs. Far better to put the $5 million into other areas than into a building that holds people in jail.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Just looking at the Main Estimates, the total cost of the project was supposed to be $28.330 million. Now you are telling us it is $30-something million, and that is why I had no problem supporting this idea of renovating the project. Also, in your handbook you mentioned that the government is committed to improving the quality of a correction facility, planning a much needed renovation to the Yellowknife Correctional Centre will begin this year. That is in your own words, Mr. Minister. I do not know what happened in the last four months for the estimate to jump from $28 million to $30-some million. This was based on what we approved in this House in regards to the Main Estimates in which it clearly stated that there was going to be $4 million spent this year. Now, the change has taken place. That number has increased drastically. Also, it changed the scope of the project. It is now a new project. Personally, I do not believe that you are being fair in regards to what is being said here but also what is documented on how we came up with the decision of funding a renovation to this facility. When have these changes in numbers taken place, and why is it such a drastic change?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. When the cost was presented to committee, it was thought, at that time, that the project could be accomplished for around $28.3 million. As the plans developed further the cost changed. This is not uncommon, as the Member will know from past projects, whether schools or other projects, when the design work gets further along, the costs increase or you find other problems that you have to address. This magnitude of change on a $28 million project is not unusual at all. As the calibre of the estimates and the planning got further along, it became apparent that it was going to cost significantly more to rebuild YCC rather than replacing it with a new facility. As I said, the estimate went from $28.3 to $35 million. It was at that point that the consultant came back to us and advised we could do the same thing if we were prepared to build it over four years instead of seven. You can build a new facility for $5 million less than what you can renovate this facility for and provide the same functional program. As I say, you are irresponsible not to consider that savings of $5 million.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you Mr. Minister. Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

July 29th, 1999

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Who is the Minister

responsible for this project?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

The Minister responsible would be Mr. Kakfwi, the Minister of Justice.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

When you change the scope of work of a project, does it go to FMBS? Is that where it goes for a change?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The decision to change was made by FMB. Mr. Morin is using the term scope of a project. In the early capital planning stage, the functional program was considered the scope of the project. I want to make sure that we are both using the word scope in the same way because if we are going to talk about changing the scope of the project, did we change the functional program, the answer is no. Did we change it from renovation to a reconstruction, yes. Have we done that many times, yes.

Tsiigehtchic School project in your constituency, Mr. Chairman, was changed from renovation to new construction. We did not, at FMB, consider that a change in scope. We changed the Inuvik maintenance garage from renovation to new construction. We changed the Aurora Campus in Inuvik from relocation and refit of Grollier Hall to new construction. All of these changes were based on information coming forward that proved to us that we could accomplish the same functional program in a more economic way for the taxpayers. Those are not all new and recent changes. Some are changes that were considered before I got into this position.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Morin.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just so we are thinking the same and using the same words, maybe the Minister can help me. Is there any difference between the word renovation and the word new? Is there a difference, just so I understand?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Minister of Finance, Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not think anyone can disagree that there is a difference in those two words. However, what we are talking about here is a functional program, and governments make changes and approaches to how projects are undertaken all the time. This government has done it many times over the four years that I have been on Cabinet and has not considered it a change in the scope of the program.