This is page numbers 169 - 202 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 2nd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

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Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 195

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, the Member offered some comments and his view of some of the activities we are engaged in. It sounded like a whole series of rather negative views on just about everything. I did not hear any questions. I thank him for his comments. If there is something specific I could try to answer, I would do that.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 195

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Miltenberger, can you be more specific in regards to questions to the Minister and make it a little clearer so he can have a chance to respond, instead of making it general?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will ask the Premier a specific question. In light of the difficult circumstances in maintaining programs and services, how does he justify the significant increase in staff, the 18 percent forced growth to the Executive at a time when we should be leading by example in terms of being prudent and keeping the dollars with the people and the programs where they are needed? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 195

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. The Minister responsible for the Department of the Executive, Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is true that there are some changes in the Department of the Executive, some new positions, some new functions that are being put in place. One of them, dealing with regional operations, as the Member pointed out, was in fact set up by the previous Cabinet. It was simply not funded. So we are just carrying on with that initiative. The Member would be very aware, with his long memory, that it happened in the previous Cabinet and that it was a good initiative that I think he personally supported.

The regions in the Northwest Territories are changing with division. The old Fort Smith region that some of us fondly remember is no longer able to be a reality.

The Inuvik region is also changing, not at the demand of this government, but of the aboriginal and community leaders in that part of the Territory. What is emerging are new realities for us that we have to grapple with as a government. There is a Beaufort Delta region that is emerging. A Sahtu region that is defined in land claim legislation. There is a Deh Cho region, which is accepted as a political fact. A Dogrib region is also becoming a legislative reality in the very near future.

These are the realities the Executive and this government have to grapple with. It requires central planning. It requires a capacity to be able to look at how we can enhance recognition of these realities in the way we operate as a government.

The functions within the Executive that were set up by the previous Cabinet are something this Assembly and this government should continue to support. It is what the communities and regions are asking us to do. We have to find a way to ensure the way we operate reflects what the Deh Cho, the Dogribs, the Sahtu, and the Beaufort Delta want, as well as make an effort to support what people in the southern part of the Territory want as well. That explains that part of it.

There is the call by all governments, the federal government, our government and aboriginal governments, to set up an intergovernmental forum. This function has to be provided by the Department of the Executive. We cannot do it within existing resources. It is a major initiative that demands full time attention by a core group.

In keeping with the high priority that has been placed on this by the previous government and Legislature, as well as this government and this Legislature, we have set up a secretariat to provide support to our government on how to engage in an intergovernmental forum.

We have created an additional Cabinet position that was asked for by the Legislature. We have complied with that wish of this Legislature. With my insistence, we have enhanced the executive assistant position that is tied to my office and created a chief of staff. This is to ensure we begin a concerted effort to ensure that all Ministers' staff and offices are coordinated in the best way possible to ensure the Cabinet, Ministers' offices and staff operate as a unit. It is an opportunity to enhance the operation of the Executive. We have done that. It has been a very welcomed development by all of the Ministers, as well as by the staff that service each individual minister, the executive assistants and the executive secretaries.

We have asked the Executive to provide an additional executive assistant to my office simply because I retain the portfolio of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development. That requires a full time, executive assistant to help me deal with the responsibilities that comes with that portfolio. We have brought in a secretary to provide support to the office of the principle secretary. These are all things that we require in order to operate in a time when there are incredible demands put on the Premier and the Ministers.

There is a tremendous amount of activity and there are exciting opportunities that none of us can afford to miss. The excuse that we simply did not have the time or the resources to respond quickly to opportunities that presented themselves to us is just not going to fly.

We have to be ready. We have to be prepared. As Members know, it has been non-stop since we have been elected. There have been workshops and sessions.

We are into our second session already. There have been no breaks. There have been no free days for most of us. The opportunities are tremendous.

We have just come back from a week in Ottawa. The federal government has indicated a keen interest in what is happening here for the first time in many years. They have also indicated a very strong commitment to work with us to make some things happen.

Members should take comfort in knowing we are not alone and we should not continue to express our fears and think we are talking into the dark. There is some real possibility that exciting things can happen with the federal and aboriginal governments partnering with us.

I believe we are well positioned to take advantage of the opportunities that are there and that we have helped to create. We cannot lose sight of that. My response has been too long for the Member. I will stop here.

-- Interjection

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 196

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Just a reminder to Members there is a set timeframe for people to ask questions and also to respond to questions. You have ten minutes, so please keep your eye on the clock. General comments or questions to the Minister? Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am a member of the Social Programs Committee and did not sit on the committee review of this department, so I too have some interest in the presentation and have not been privy to some of the background information. I need to seek that.

I am also concerned about the growth and the expenditures in the Executive. Knowing that we are going in for an interim supply bill and would be coming forward with a budget in a little while, was any consideration given to putting off some of these expenditures until we knew what the final budget would look like?

It appears to me we jumped right in here with growth. I certainly hope Premier Kakfwi and Minister Handley are tremendously successful with Ottawa. I agree with them that we have tremendous potential here. In addition, there is reason for the federal government to be excited about that potential. I would hope that they would invest in the North so we can achieve that potential, because they are the ones that will reap most of the benefits in the long run.

But until we have a better idea of what results we might see and until we have a full budget, does it not seem a little inappropriate to expand the offices in the Executive to this level?

Minister Kakfwi has talked about the tremendous amount of activity that is underway. I have been around this Legislature now for over eight years. I have to tell you there is no more activity this year than what I have seen the previous years. Certainly there is no more challenge that we face than what we faced four years ago when we were heading into division. I think we managed to pull that off quite well with the existing level of staff we had.

I am just a little concerned we may have embarked on an expansion in a department where it is servicing us and it is not servicing the front line. It does not give any services to people. Could we have not put this off for awhile? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 196

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Dent. The Minister responsible for the Department of the Executive, Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you. I would like to thank the Member for sharing in the optimism. It is good to hear.

The suggestion is that perhaps we could have put some of these off. As I have said, the idea of placing staff to look at regional operations and community affairs was made by the previous Cabinet, so they are included because there was no funding provided for it when it was done.

The decision to add an additional Minister was made by everyone and we are simply adding it in there because it needs to be funded.

The additions to the Premier's office are ones that are needed now. We are operating in a slightly different style than the previous Cabinets, and I think it has been a welcome change by everyone that is aware of some of the enhanced ways we are operating now.

New positions set up for the intergovernmental forum staff is one that I believe could not wait. The first intergovernmental forum is tentatively scheduled within the next month or two. The federal government has indicated a keen interest in having an intergovernmental forum happen as early as May. The aboriginal leaders have indicated a keen interest in moving ahead with that. It is important for us to show that we would place a high priority on it and prepare ourselves by having appropriate staff support and guidance in making sure that we are good, constructive, positive participants in this forum.

It is a suggestion, of course we thought of, that we could do nothing and hope that somehow it pays in dividends; it does not. We see some opportunities. There are some demands made and we are responding with what we think is in the best interest of the public, this government, this Legislature. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 196

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, to the Minister for that response. You pointed out that the regional position had never been filled by the previous government and having been there, I know the reason for that was we saw other priorities for the money.

It would have been nice to have that position funded. We did not feel comfortable to fill that position when we were saying we did not have enough money for education. Again, it comes back to my position that this perhaps should have been postponed until we got to the mains, at which time there would be a better idea of how we would allocate funds to make sure we had enough for it.

Under regional committee relations, the previous government eliminated the regional directors positions in order to save money, but we are now talking about three positions. I am not sure if they are in the regions. Regional directors may have been a better way to handle this than what is being proposed right now.

Under intergovernmental forum, I would hope we are not the only ones that are going to be taking on the significant expenditures here. I agree this is an imperative issue. We must be well prepared to deal with it. Why have we not expected the federal government to contribute to the cost of organizing this? I see us with three PYs dedicated to it. Have the feds committed to the same level of expenditure, or have we even talked to them about sharing the costs for the organization of this operation?

I would think this certainly is an area in which, if there is an Intergovernmental Forum Secretariat, there should be a sharing of costs between this government and the federal government. I know once we start undertaking an expenditure, it is pretty tough to go back to the feds and have them kick in after the fact.

I am not sure how many questions I can ask before - I know the Minister takes a while to respond to questions. I am scared that if I stop now, I may not get another chance to ask. It is a natural break in the questioning, so, I will take a chance and end there and ask the Minister if he can respond to those two comments and questions.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 197

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In regard to costs of the intergovernmental forum and the devolution of the revenue sharing process, if there is one, it is an item to discuss on the agenda. We have discussed this with Minister Nault. We have pointed out to Mr. Nault that in the development of the secondary diamond industry, we have done this entire initiative on our own. There has been no federal money coming in to help us develop our economy for the last number of years. That was strongly noted.

Hopefully, in the next couple of weeks, we will get back to having some discussions with Minister Nault and the Finance Minister, Paul Martin, on arrangements like this. There is no doubt we expect them to pay the majority of the costs for these types of initiatives. It has come up in the course of our discussions.

I should say as well, Mr. Chairman, when I say we only seem to be more busy and there are more things happening now, I say that because last month there was a unanimous motion by aboriginal leaders to support the idea of owning and managing a pipeline. In the last two years, there has been a few trillion cubic feet of natural gas found in the Deh Cho.

In the last few weeks and months, a few million have been bid by oil and gas companies to do exploration in the Beaufort Delta, which was virtually non-existent in the last few years. We have spoken of an intergovernmental forum and again, there is a renewed interest in setting up a process to have discussions or negotiations on devolution and revenue sharing that were not there before. We have the Akaitcho people that are sitting down to resume negotiations with the federal government. We have the Deh Cho as well.

These type of things call for increased time and resources by our government. These are just some of the things that we see that compel us to do as much good, quality work as we possibly can in a very short period of time. As well as try to be as inclusive as we can as Members of the Legislature, as well as the aboriginal governments, who we have committed to being full partners with as we carry out our work in the next few years. Thank you. I tried to be brief.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 197

The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Mr. Dent's ten minutes are up. I will recognize another Member. General comments. Mr. Delorey.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

March 20th, 2000

Page 197

Paul Delorey

Paul Delorey Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Recognizing that I lack a fair bit of experience compared to some of my colleagues, I have to say that I share some of their concerns. Since I have been elected to this position, and at some of the meetings we attended when we were in Fort Providence, we heard a very dismal picture of the situation this government is in and how we have to watch our steps in this coming Session for avoiding the debt wall, as we call it.

Every time we have had a briefing in all different areas of government, there seems to be an increase in positions. I think I have counted at least 13 positions now that are being created at the Executive level. I have some concern that someday we are going to find out that we are really heading down the road and we are going to have to make some hard decisions. I am a little concerned that it is going to come at the cost of youth programs and social programs that we have out there.

We all share the enthusiasm and we all want the Territories to go forward and prosper, myself as much as anyone else. We are really looking forward to some good news from Ottawa. We have heard they are excited, and that is good news. We have also heard they have expressed not commitments, but an interest in putting money into government. That could possibly come in the form of training programs or major infrastructure work as far as getting ready for pipelines. That may not do a lot for our budget. I do not know if the Premier has any idea how many positions are actually being established and how many positions this government can actually sustain without putting excess strain on our budget.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Delorey. Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I have said, some of the positions that were created, for instance, on regional and community operations, there are three positions that were created by the previous government. The three were directly appointed by the Premier's Cabinet. There are actually three people in those positions. We are simply putting them in there and asking for the dollars because the dollars were not assigned to it previously.

We have asked for money to add an additional Minister. The Minister's office, the executive assistant secretary, in keeping in direction with the Legislature to bring Cabinet up to seven. In there, I think, are two additional new positions in the Premier's Office. One, as I said, is an additional executive assistant to assist me with my duties as the Minister for Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development. The other is a new executive secretary to provide support to the office of the principal secretary. Those are the new positions that have been created in the Department of the Executive. That is what we have there.

Some of them are, as I said, new initiatives. We have created a special advisor to Cabinet on the intergovernmental forum, on devolution, and revenue sharing, which is critical for this government. Those are new positions, but we require them because we do not have the capacity to get into the intergovernmental forum. We have asked for those positions to prepare for discussions on devolution and revenue sharing. You should know that the previous government once spent $1 million pursuing devolution and the Northern Accord, and it all came to nothing. We need some investment in it. This is nowhere near a $1 million commitment, but it is important for us to have the best possible staff we can to support us on it. This is reflected here.

I appreciate what the Members are saying. If it was possible, we would not ask for additional staff. We know we should keep it within existing resources. At the same time, we know it is going to be difficult, if not impossible to cut the community regional levels because it would be seen as a sign of bad faith by just about everyone.

We also know we need to reorganize our regional operations. Even if we had not initially agreed with the direction of the previous government, we now agree we need the staff that were directly appointed by the previous Cabinet to look at regional and community affairs and the operations, because the regions are asking us to do this, and it is in keeping with the recommendation to support and accept the changing political landscape out there in the regions. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Minister. General comments, Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have heard concerns on the growth within the Executive. We know there are many pressures facing us as a government and there is a need to do some reinvestment in areas, so we can make sure that we meet the objectives that we have set for ourselves.

We know it is a high priority of the 13th Assembly as well as the 14th Assembly when we speak on the issue of aboriginal governments and their involvement with the Government of the Northwest Territories. We know there is a need to do some expansion.

The question that comes to bear is, for example, we went from the end days of the 13th Assembly down to six Ministers after division. There was discussion of going up to the seventh Minister so there could be a fair distribution of the workload in the Cabinet offices. What we have seen here, in a sense, for the time being at least, the Premier has elected to hold his portfolio of Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development and with that, an extra position. We know that there has been work going on upstairs to try and accommodate the growth of the Cabinet Members.

A concern that I have is there are areas where, yes, we are going to reinvest. Until we know our fiscal situation, we have to be very prudent about where we are going to spend our dollars.

The Minister has provided information, as the committee requested, in identification of new positions and associated costs. I thank the Premier for getting that information to us. But there are a number of areas we have to look at. As I said earlier in my comments to the interim appropriation as a whole, in approving the interim appropriation, we are in fact setting the stage for the business plan as a whole. Although we are combining areas in the Executive that have grown from the Cabinet Secretariat and the Ministerial offices, we are looking at over $500,000 or a third of the budget.

So that adds up to almost $1.5 million or higher for the year. That is a significant increase of expenditures in the Executive. How do we balance that? That is a difficult question to go with. We know that demands are out there and no previous governments seemed able to find dollars. For example, the Constitutional Working Group, which did not have an actual line item, but seemed to find the dollars by coming back to the government for supplementary appropriations, and so on.

Early in the life of the 13th Assembly, regional director positions were removed or were no longer considered a vital part of government and maybe that is something that has to be revisited along with a lot of other decisions that were made.

The ideal is to be prudent. It is a situation where all the positions put forward are vital to ensure the effective operation of the Cabinet and Cabinet Secretariat. With the information provided by the Premier's office, the executive assistant, executive secretary and chief of staff, the executive assistant has been a revised position to the chief of staff and the dollars associated with that.

The dollars identified, are they the total cost of the area? Or is it a situation where positions have been revised and the dollar amount identified is to top up the existing salary that was there? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The Minister responsible for the Executive, Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member had offered comments on the need to balance the workload, which were the reasons for adding an additional Cabinet position, which is true. We appreciate that. It is true that as the Premier, I have retained the portfolio for Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development. It is a big workload. In the previous Cabinet in which I served, I was responsible for Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development and Justice as well. The workload has not changed much. However, the support is stronger now and we appreciate that.

It is a four-year commitment, so Members will know that portfolio assignments will change from time to time as time allows. I think it has been the right decision as we have some new Ministers.

As I said earlier, there was very little time for new Ministers to get briefed on the operations and the mandates of the departments. We have had no time for them to absorb the details and grasp the issues that are before them in their respective portfolios. We took note from Mr. Miltenberger, when he served notice at the end of the last session, that all Ministers should be well prepared to answer all questions that come their way. In the course of this session, again, that was only a couple of weeks ago.

So we have this very hectic schedule that we are working with and I believe it has been well managed. We are working long hours as a Cabinet. It has been a very enjoyable experience to date. We are getting our work done. We are finding that we are able to meet the demands for work, as well as plan and prepare strategically for issues that we have to deal with. So far, as some of the Ministers have commented, we have done very well in our initial foray into engaging the federal government.

We talked about our issues and we are finding the future of the North. We have been very happy with that, and the workload will continue to be shared. Portfolios will be reassigned in the course of the very productive four years coming up. Thank you.

-- Applause

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

General comments. Mr. Roland.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

The specific issue that I had raised earlier, is this interim appropriation as a full salary complement to the new additions or, in some cases, is it a top up to existing salaries? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Krutko

Mr. Minister.