Thank you, Mr. Braden. Please be seated. The Chair recognizes the honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Handley.Point of Order

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a point of order under section 23(h) and (i) of the Rules of the Legislative Assembly. Mr. Speaker, yesterday when we were discussing in committee of the whole and when I reviewed Hansard, I noticed on page 1229 that Ms. Lee had said and I will quote this piece, "...but it is the Minister who put this into the supplementary appropriation and the headline on Friday said $500,000 for the payout. That came out of the public document which is supp 3." First of all, Mr. Speaker, she is wrong. Supp 3 talks about $695,000 or so, not $500,000.

It goes on to say, "if it is true, as he has been saying, that he knows his obligation under this contract and that he was not to do anything that would reveal it, for him to have put it into a supplementary appropriation is a ground for questioning his conduct."

Mr. Speaker, the Member is very aware that I have a statutory obligation as Minister of Finance to put into the supp anything that is going to require additional spending. That appropriation is put in there because the Department of the Executive does not have the money to handle it.

Mr. Speaker, in this statement she is clearly imputing a motive to me and second, is questioning my integrity. Mr. Speaker, clearly, I think the rules of this House are very simple, straightforward and clearly understood. This is not allowed. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. We have a point of order. Is there any debate on this point of order? To the point of order. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, to the point of order I await your decision on this point. For you to consider in your deliberation, I would request that you look into the fact that from my point of view, I believe it was a point of debate and in fact I asked a question to the Minister about whether or not there were any other occasions where personal and private separation packages were discussed in Supplementary No. 3. If the Minister would just answer that he would know it was just a back and forth question that is appropriate for the matter at hand. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Any further debate on this point of order? I will take this under advisement and report back to the House. Mr. Handley, perhaps for the record you could clarify the page number you were referring to. Mr. Handley.

Mr. Speaker, I am referring to page 1229 of the unedited Hansard from yesterday.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. We have that number, page 1229. The Chair once again will ask for any further debate on this point of order. Mr. Handley.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to point out that as all the Members know in this House, as the Minister of Finance I have a statutory obligation to, where there is additional money to a department's appropriation, I have to put it into the supplementary appropriation. That is the only way we can operate.

The amount of money that was placed there, first of all, is $696,000 not the $500,000 that Ms. Lee is referring to. That does not come out of the supp, that does not appear in the supp document. Second, there is no other way to do it. For her to suggest that somehow I am manipulating the system I think is incredulous. I quote, "...for him to put it into a supplementary appropriation is ground for questioning his conduct." She is questioning my conduct as Minister of Finance. I have an obligation to do this. I have done what is proper. The Executive does not have the money in its regular appropriation to handle the $696,000. It had to go into here as a supp.

Mr. Speaker, clearly, Rules 23(h) and (i) which state "cannot make allegations against another Member of the House, officer, or witness or imputes false or hidden motives to another Member" have been violated in this case, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Handley. Any further debate on this point of order? No further debate. I shall reserve a decision on this matter until I have had a chance to review these relevant sections and comments that were made. The honourable Member for Range Lake, you have a point of order.

Point of Order

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise to make a point of order also arising out of the committee of the whole debate yesterday evening. I realize that I have raised a point of order already, but there is another one that I noticed when I had a chance to review the transcript and this is the first opportunity in which I could raise this point.

Mr. Speaker, my point of order is on the same rule previously mentioned, Rule 23(h) which says "makes allegations against another Member, House officer or witness" and subsection 23 (m) which says "introduces any matter in debate that offends the practices and precedents of the Assembly."

Mr. Speaker, the offending statement is found on page 1227 of the unedited Hansard, halfway down the page.

-- Interjection

-- Laughter

Mr. Bell said "She has found the leak."

Mr. Speaker, I ask that you review the statement, because for me it is clearly a statement that a Member in this House has stated that I was somehow involved in leaking some information out of this House. I find that Mrs. Groenewegen's statement is evidence of another Member alleging misconduct by myself, and I ask for your ruling on this point. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. The Chair is not clear as to who you are alleging has made these comments. Is it Mr. Bell or Mrs. Groenewegen? Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I understand that there might be some unclarity as to who is to share the most of the misconduct if you find it to be. I appreciate that, but I will have to leave that to you to decide. The evidence that I have here is Mrs. Groenewegen said what Mr. Bell said.

I have it in print and I have to use it as evidence of what is uttered in this House. The utterance is that Mr. Bell, the honourable Member for Yellowknife South is clearly quoted here as saying, "she has found the leak." I do not want to go to the interpretation, but I read this to be that Mrs. Groenewegen has found me to be leaking information outside of this House, and she has quoted Mr. Bell as saying that.

This is clear evidence to me. It is written. Mrs. Groenewegen has repeated what Mr. Bell said. There is enough evidence here to suggest that there is one Member of this House alleging misconduct and improper conduct by another colleague. I think that this is clearly contrary to the rules of the House. It goes against the respect that we ought to have in this House. I ask for your ruling. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Ms. Lee, I am going to disallow the point of order. The Chair is really not concerned with what has been going on in the back there. There does not appear to be a point of order based on what the Chair sees here. I shall disallow this. Do we have any further points of order? Okay, then let us get on with the business of the House. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Minister responsible for Resources, Wildlife and Economic Development, Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Item 2, Ministers' statements. The honourable Minister for Finance, Mr. Handley.

Today, Statistics Canada released population counts for the 2001 census, including results for the Northwest Territories and our communities. In our view, the census numbers are wrong and do not accurately reflect the population of the Northwest Territories.

The census is done by the federal government every five years and provides critical information about the Northwest Territories and our communities. This information is important to our government and to communities to help design programs and services for residents of the Northwest Territories. I would like to thank all residents of the Northwest Territories for their cooperation with the census specifically and more generally with surveys that are done in our communities.

One of the purposes for which the census results are used is to help establish population levels that are a significant aspect of the formula funding arrangement between the territorial government and the federal government. However, it is important to note that these are not the numbers that will be used in our funding formula. In addition to the census population, Statistics Canada also completes studies that estimate the number of people missed by the census. This estimate of missed people and the census count is what is used to determine our funding levels.

Even though these numbers are not the final population estimates, the results released this morning from the 2001 census do cause significant concern for our government. Statistics Canada reports that, based on census counts, the Northwest Territories population declined by 5.8 percent between 1996 and 2001. This result is contrary to other indicators for the Northwest Territories. Although there was a period where some out-migration was apparent in 1997 and 1998, the increased activity related to diamond mining, in addition to natural gas activity in the Beaufort-Delta and Deh Cho areas, would seem to suggest the Northwest Territories is not a place in population decline. These indicators, along with concerns raised by the GNWT at the time of the census collection, cause me to have some serious doubts about the accuracy of the population counts from the census.

I have directed the Bureau of Statistics to request that Statistics Canada conduct a detailed review of census operations in all communities in the Northwest Territories. This review should help identify areas where this census may have had deficiencies. Further, my department will be closely monitoring Statistics Canada's work on the coverage studies to ensure that an accurate estimate of the people missed by the census is developed for use in our funding arrangements. Finally, we plan to complete our new population counts in selected communities to help assess the quality of these counts. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Minister Handley. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. The honourable Member for Frame Lake, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Premier tabled two revisions to the Ministerial Administrative Procedures Manual. One dealt with telephone procedures and those additions are ones that will be most welcome. The other was a revised travel policy for Ministers that will come into effect on April 1st of this year.

Mr. Speaker, the existing policy is called the home travel policy and it allows Ministers to travel to their constituency and back 32 times per year. The new policy is called non-portfolio ministerial travel and opens the door much more widely to travel. Mr. Speaker, the new policy adds eight return trips per year and no longer limits the travel to a Minister's home constituency. Forty trips per year, and that is on top of any travel paid for by their constituency budgets and on top of any travel they do for their ministerial responsibilities.

Mr. Speaker, what really concerns me is the conditions that apply to the eight additional trips, or perhaps I should characterize it as lack of conditions. These trips do not have to relate to the Minister's portfolio. They can be for any reason. The new policy tells us why, right in the first sentence, "Ministers are on duty all the time."

Mr. Speaker, any travel is therefore parliamentary or government-related because they are always on duty. Mr. Speaker, these eight new trips are clearly not just for home travel. The conditions make that fairly evident. Half may be used for a spouse or children and they do not have to include the Minister's constituency as a stop.

On top of that, Mr. Speaker, two trips can be made anywhere in Canada, or one trip with their spouse. Under this new policy, remember, no reason need be given, for a Minister is always on duty. Meanwhile, Regular Members, Mr. Speaker, many of whom are here in Yellowknife for 150 days per year and, by the way, that may be nearly as many days as some Members of Cabinet, have a very different set of rules under which to work. Between sessional and committee travel, Regular Members do not get nearly 40 trips per year, and those trips can only be between their home constituency and the place of the meeting.

Mr. Speaker, from this I draw the conclusion that even though we have a consensus system that treats all Members much more equally than most Assemblies in Canada, we clearly have some in this House who are more equal than others. Mr. Speaker, I also think the public will be concerned by the lack of conditions...

Mr. Dent, your time for your Member's statement has ended. Mr. Dent.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my statement.

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent to conclude his statement. Are there any nays? There are no nays. You may conclude your statement, Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, colleagues. Mr. Speaker, I also think the public will be concerned by the lack of conditions that are set out for travel anywhere in Canada. A Minister will be able to take their spouse anywhere in Canada now, for no reason. I am sure none of the current Members would ever do so, but there is really nothing that is stopping this from being used to replace the old vacation travel assistance plan the government took away from all employees some years ago.

Mr. Speaker, I think we have to re-examine this policy and I will be following up on this in question period today. Thank you.

-- Applause