Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Mr. Roland.
Debates of Oct. 10th, 2003
This is page numbers 1397 - 1454 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was tlicho.
Topics
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1437
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1437
Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A number of other questions that were asked yesterday in a couple of the other clauses were reflecting those that were non-Tlicho citizens. There was talk that, for example, the Tlicho government being a regional body, not the community government but at the top end would not make laws affecting non-Tlicho citizens, or would not impact them in that way. Can I get an explanation from that end? We had information provided yesterday to how that would be impacted, if there is an impact.
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1437
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Goldney
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Tlicho government, just as point of clarification, will have jurisdiction over Tlicho citizens and Tlicho lands. Primarily as an aboriginal government, it will concern itself with matters directly affecting Tlicho citizens and the Tlicho lands that it holds in something akin to the fee simple. There will be instances where Tlicho laws will affect non-Tlicho citizens when they make laws, for example, regarding the management of their own Tlicho lands. So I think that might bring some clarification to the question. How it ties in with subsection 4.2 of the claim agreement just makes it certain that all peoples with liabilities and rights under that agreement are bound by them.
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1437
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1437
Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Further in clause 4(3), "For great certainty, the Tlicho agreement is binding on, and can be relied on, by persons and bodies that are not parties to it." Again, in reference to some of the questions and answers yesterday and taking into account what Mr. Goldney has just stated about making laws and so on on lands, I can understand that because we have land claims in place that already have those provisions in place. I'm wondering beyond sort of lands or access to lands or who can go on lands, because again that's a familiar territory, but on the self-government side what does it mean for citizens, and this talks about third parties. Can we get some more detail on what that means?
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1437
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1437
Goldney
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are several third-party obligations that were negotiated. The provision of the bill 4.7(3) confirms that third parties are bound by those obligations and that they can rely on the provisions within the Tlicho agreement. Some examples of third-party obligations in the Tlicho agreement are non-Tlicho residents of Tlicho communities are bound by Tlicho laws that abide all residents. For example, harvesting of fish, use of waters on Tlicho lands and setting of harvesting limits on any species or stock of fish by any person. This is something that's new in the Tlicho government; the ability for an aboriginal self-government to set these laws. Previous agreements have seen renewable resources boards established to help set these things, but the Tlicho agreement is unique in that it will establish a formal Tlicho government with law-making powers.
Also, all people, whether or not they were party to the Tlicho agreement, have access to certain rights. For example, the right to access information under the registrar of Tlicho laws. So this merely captures all those instances where people have rights under the agreement and are bound by the terms of the agreement.
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1437
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1437
Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With these being in place, again I'll just ask a question for the record. Does it meet the requirements of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms? Thank you.
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1437
Goldney
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is the Department of Justice's view that it does, and I think we should also note that the constitution of the Tlicho government is required to meet or exceed the protections of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It's something the Tlicho constitution, the Tlicho have adopted the Charter of Rights and Freedoms wholly. So when their laws are being applied, they are measured against the same yardstick of individual rights and protections as this government's.
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1437
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Bill Braden Great Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to perhaps get a bit more beyond the strict range than is covered by clause 4, Mr. Chairman. Let me know if I'm straying a bit too far. The issue that I've been asked to get some understanding on is the extent to which clause 4, in effect, is also the approval process for the subsequent bills that we will be asked to pass. The Minister, in his opening statement, said that two other pieces of legislation are to be considered by the next Assembly, the Tlicho Community Government Act and the Community Services Agency Act. But by saying in clause 4 that the Tlicho agreement is approved, given effect and declared valid and have the force of law, why then should the next Assembly expect to go through the normal approval process for these subsequent acts? What's the difference going to be? Thank you.
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, there are two other pieces of legislation that are currently being drafted. They are close to completion; stage one is more complete than the other. They are the Tlicho Community Government Act, as well as the Tlicho Community Service Agency Act. These two acts we're anticipating will go to the 15th Legislative Assembly early on, whenever the next sitting is, probably sometime in February or March, and they would be ready to be introduced in the House. These two pieces of legislation will go through the regular process.
I know there has been concern raised by almost all the Members that Bill 34, Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Act, is something that should have gone out to the public, but these other two pieces would give that opportunity to the public to view the whole Tlicho Land Claim and Self-Government Act because the two pieces are contingent and part of Bill 34, as well. So there will be an opportunity at that time to do the proper work that the MLAs are known to carry out. Thank you.
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1438
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Bill Braden Great Slave
Thank you. Perhaps what I'll do is repeat a question, that I believe Mr. Dent just asked a little while ago, and it will relate to the two subsequent pieces of legislation. If you'll give me that latitude, Mr. Chairman. To the upcoming Community Government Act and Community Services Agency Act, will an amendment or change be permitted within our regular consultation process? Then the 15th Assembly undertakes those, or are those two bills going to be, like this one, closed to any further amendment by this Assembly?
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, I think there will be opportunity to do some amendments in terms of structure. I think the main content of what is being agreed will probably be there and how we get it done. I think those types of amendments will probably be permissible, but we have to consult with our counterparts and get it done. Thank you.
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1438
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Page 1438
Bill Braden Great Slave
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate those answers, and they're very much the way I understood the process to be. I fully recognize and I think most people across the NWT have recognized the way these laws, these acts are being built, the way they're being negotiated and designed is different from the process that's usually undertaken. It just does not permit the usual flexibility that we're used to in approving that. But I wanted to get that information out, because I want to understand very clearly then when these two acts do come before the next Assembly, there will be validity in the public hearing process that this is something that we will, I believe, undertake. We are not simply going to be going through a process of rubberstamping or automatically approving the subsequent acts.
I'll come back to clause 4 again. It's a very powerful, two-line sentence. "The Tlicho agreement is approved, given effect and declared valid, and has the force of law." So this really is the dilemma here where we recognize that this is the right thing to do, absolutely; but are we expecting too much or are we expecting the wrong things of our system if we say we can take this body of work, create it, build it, negotiate it, write it through a different set of circumstances, yet anticipate our routine access to it? It's probably not realistic. So I'm wondering -- and this is a question, it's a wonder for the next 15th Assembly to look at -- should we be considering some other approach to the approval of this kind of law.
We're going to be seeing more of this, Mr. Chairman. There are other self-government and land claim tables going on under negotiation. We have devolution under negotiation. Earlier today in this House we talked about the creation of the Wildlife Act. From my understanding, that is being negotiated and almost written again in a much broader consultative process than we normally undertake. So we have, I think, a host of upcoming legislation that subsequent assemblies are going to have to deal with. From the signals and the messages we're getting here, I think we need to be looking at a different way of handling it. I think these pressures are the kinds of pressures that we're experiencing, or that I'm experiencing, to accept this, to back it, to get behind it, are at odds with the kind of beliefs and rules and expectations that I think people have of us when we make laws.
So I guess this is where I'm trying to lay the ground here for a question that would try to examine the validity of a new approach to Legislative Assembly approval for this kind of document. Could I ask the Minister then, is this something that the next Assembly should be looking at, or is our normal process what we should be maintaining? Which way do we go? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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The Chair Paul Delorey
Thank you, Mr. Braden. We maybe strayed a bit from the intent of the bill here, but I'll give the Minister an opportunity to respond. Mr. Antoine.
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh
Mr. Chairman, the Tlicho agreement requires the Government of the Northwest Territories to get the consent of the Tlicho government before introducing a bill to amend community government legislation. The two different pieces of legislation that are forthcoming in the next Assembly, which are the Tlicho Community Government Act and the Tlicho Community Service Agency Act, these two packages reflect what has been negotiated in a lot of detail. So in order to do the work that the next Assembly is going to do in the standing committee in reviewing the bill, it will probably require a new approach, like you say, to look at this Tlicho legislation, because it's totally different and unique from other normal government developed legislation. So there will probably need to be a set of directions on what could be done. The substantial elements of these two pieces of legislation are more or less already agreed upon by the three parties. But this obligation probably applies to the Executive of our government first. But once the bill is introduced then, of course, all Members are entitled to know how they want to vote, and their authority to do this is not fettered at all.
So while we must obtain the consent for the introduction of any amendments, they do require Tlicho consent to make changes to amend bills once they're introduced. So it's different than our previous approach, so certainly there has to be a careful look at how the committees will probably have to view this bill the next time around. Thank you.
Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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