This is page numbers 1397 - 1454 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was tlicho.

Topics

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd just like to make a short comment and to say that I will not be supporting this motion. Mr. Speaker, like I said in my statement earlier, when Members in this House go at it very strongly against a Minister or are pushing a Minister, I think people out there might think that some of us have something personally against a Minister. A lot of that has been said about me because I know that I've had my matches with Mr. Miltenberger and I've been often asked by media or anybody who listens to us if I'm going to ask for his head, and so on.

Mr. Miltenberger came and talked to me about this motion. Mr. Speaker, I oppose this motion for many reasons. One is that...I should just finish that thought. I am willing to go hard on the Minister to ask him to do his job. But asking for his resignation or censuring him is not an answer. I do believe, Mr. Speaker, seeing myself from Yellowknife, I do believe he has pushed really hard to meet the needs of small communities. There's no question that there's a lot that we have not been able to do.

I can understand that people in the communities are thinking that their services are not improving or maybe even deteriorating, but I do believe it is a responsibility of all of us. It's really a question that I think the next Assembly needs to look at seriously. It is the emergence of the disparity or difference of services and programs being provided to Yellowknife versus small communities.

Any Yellowknife Members here can tell you that we get calls from our people who are saying that it seems like Yellowknife, with the biggest population and as the capital city that it is, is not getting the attention from this government. So we seem to have sort of discontent on both sides. People cannot understand why Yellowknife, with the size that it is, only has two ice pads. Or with the taxes they're paying, why are their programs less than such?

I know that I've travelled across the Territories and I can totally appreciate how the people in the communities feel that they are not getting the basic services they need or they should get a lot more than what they have. Certainly it's a task for all of us.

I don't think censuring a Minister on the last day and putting everything on his shoulders is really being responsible, frankly. I do respect the Members here to make a statement and the Members especially from small communities to show their frustration at the lack of action. But I don't believe the motion is the way to go.

I agree totally with what the Minister said about individual responsibility. There's a lot of room there for us to improve on. But there's no question, as a government and as an Assembly, we have not moved as far as we can on the social agenda. I know the Minister has been working very hard on a health care plan. We have had so many studies in the last three years, once again, I think we might have studied more on issues than acted upon.

I do believe and I know that it's the eve of the election, but I am not afraid of taking my share of the responsibility for the stuff that we have not been able to achieve for the people. We have had lots of agendas, but there's no question in my mind that if there ever was a Minister that really worked hard to take things away from Yellowknife and put it into communities, that is Mr. Miltenberger.

---Laughter

I'll give you that. Much of my fight had to do with stopping him because that would be my job to do it.

So I hope I'm making myself clear. I think it's a question about small communities versus big communities. It's a challenge for many governments to come to address. It's about how much of the total budget we had that we spent on health and social services and our social problems that we have.

The increasing money that's flowing in Yellowknife is considered to be one of the causes for lots of social problems that we are having in the city, and the residents are getting more engaged in that debate. So I believe that this is an issue much bigger than the Minister himself...

---Laughter

...so, for that reason...

---Laughter

...bigger than the Minister's power. So I'm not going to support this motion, but I do respect the arguments being put forward by the Members for North Slave and Mackenzie Delta. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee. To the motion. The honourable for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Ootes.

Jake Ootes

Jake Ootes Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, from my experience of being Cabinet Minister and also having served on the other side of the House, it's my opinion that the most difficult department to run in this government is the Department of Health and Social Services. There are lots and lots and lots of challenges out there for us to address, and I appreciate what the Members are saying. There's no question that we have to tackle them. But you know, Mr. Speaker, the issues out there, we need to do more than just be a government addressing these issues. We need community governments to address this, we need community leaders to address this issue. Because the issues out there, the expenditures are being made in many areas, such as have been referenced because of smoking, because of alcohol. We've got children raising children, and obesity and people not exercising. Those are the issues, Mr. Speaker, and there needs to be more and more debate.

You know in my eight years in this House, I can probably check Hansard and count maybe two or three times when we've seriously discussed this issue, the issue of social lifestyles. That's what's at the bottom of this. How do we address the expenditure that's being made in the whole area of health? Because it's getting out of control, Mr. Speaker, and it always will until we change our lifestyles and address that whole area.

The system is, no doubt, under stress. We know we have a large territory with many, many communities, and that's expensive to operate. Therefore, it's hard to place proper facilities in each community to the extent that's being requested. That creates a tremendous difficulty, Mr. Speaker. This is the largest government for dollars, however, Mr. Speaker, while I appreciate what the Members are saying who moved this motion, I feel the condemnation of the Minister and his department are totally misdirected in this. But for the grace of God, there go I. It could be any one of us here if that attitude is taken at the moment that something isn't provided, okay, put a motion before the House of non-confidence in the Minister. I understand the frustrations and I compliment the Members for at least saying that they're frustrated, but I don't think condemning the Minister is the answer for that, Mr. Speaker, and I will definitely vote against it. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Ootes. To the motion. There are no other Members speaking to the motion. Mr. Krutko, you may close the debate.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as you can see from the presentations we heard around the table, it's pretty clear that the have and have not communities don't realize what it's like to have a community where you can't have access to your health centre, you don't have access to service providers like alcohol and drug counsellors or mental health workers. You guys can all sit on that side of the House and just say quit smoking, quit drinking, snap your fingers, it will go away. It will not happen.

The problem we have in our small communities is economically and socially stimulated because we don't have an economic base, not like the luxury of large centres where this government basically runs those communities. I think it's important without these programs and services, you will not have healthy communities, you will not have healthy people to cope with the stresses of the day-to-day things in small communities and being in some cases homeless and in most cases unemployed, living on income support, living in social housing. That's the stem of the problem of this Government of the Northwest Territories. Yet the bureaucracy of this government continues to grow.

Since we got here four years ago, the only thing that has grown in this government's budget is the bureaucracy. I think as responsible Members on both sides of this House, we have to take some responsibilities as ordinary Members, too. We have brought up supplementary appropriations where we rant and rave and question it going through the House, but at the end of the day we vote them out.

Mr. Speaker, my motion is clear. My motion is directed in regard to programs and services delivered in small communities which at this time are nil in some communities. We have emergency services only being provided in some communities right now. We have people who basically are being diagnosed at the regional hospital because they took it on their own to get to the regional hospital, later to be diagnosed and medevaced to Edmonton at a cost which could have been a lot less if that person was diagnosed in the community before they had to make it on their own to a regional hospital. Those are the costs that you keep talking about. Health care costs will continue to go up. Yes, they'll continue to go up because in small communities a large portion of that cost is medevacs out of our communities because we don't have the basic programs to diagnose and assess these problems before they become so-called medical emergencies. That's where the costs of this government are going.

For the Minister to put the onus on the so-called frontline workers, it's not the frontline workers that are ultimately responsible to ensure that those programs and services are being delivered in the communities. He has the ultimate responsibility to ensure that the standards and the mission of this government is being carried out, to promote, protect and provide health and well-being programs to people in the Northwest Territories. That's your responsibility as a Minister. When you have closures in our communities every summer going on for four or five years and it continues to go on, you are responsible.

Mr. Speaker, as we can see from the motion around the table and the comments that were made, this is definitely a situation that we in small communities find ourselves frustrated because we know nothing is going to change in this government. So maybe it is good we're going to the polls for an election, so we can maybe get some new Ministers in there and new people in this House that really understand the problems in our small communities. Because in large communities you don't have to cope with the frustration of having your children taken away by social services and not having an appeal process to go to, or not having the ability to take your family and your children to counselling because you don't have counsellors in our communities. You have people in our communities who have diabetes and other health problems that aren't able to access the programs that are being offered in other communities. You have nutritional programs for people in the regional centre, nutritional services are being provided in regional centres where you can talk to a nutritionist, you have programs in regard to family counselling. In Yellowknife you can walk down the street and walk into somebody's office and have that service provided. If you want a dentist you basically go down the street and make an appointment. If you want to go see a doctor, you phone one of the clinics here in Yellowknife or in the other centres and you can go see a doctor. In our communities that luxury does not apply. You're lucky to see a doctor once a month, if that, if you're able to get on the list. With the dentist, you're lucky to see him twice a year and you're limited on what they can do once they get there.

So I think that what the comments were from the Members on the opposite side saying that everything is hunky-dory and don't worry, everything is taken care of, I can't agree with. I feel that this government has a responsibility to ensure that programs and services that are being provided are universally provided across the board.

If we have programs that aren't filled, every effort should be made to get those positions out there and advertise and ensure that those people are in place.

I would just like to refer to a comment that was made with regard to not being responsible by making this motion. For me, not making this motion basically tells me I'm just going to bow to the normal process and not say anything and just let it continue. I can't do that. I personally cannot stand here and say that everything is rosy out there, because it isn't. The Minister knows it from the comments I made in the last week and from the correspondence that I've been sending back and forth to the Minister's office, that this problem is there, it is affecting people's health and well- being, and in most cases has caused grief to a lot of families. I think as a government we are responsible.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to make it clear that knowing this motion will not be passed with the numbers that are out there, but this will not go away. I hope for those people who are running in this next election and running in those small communities, that this be one of their top priorities coming into this House in the 15th Legislative Assembly. The comments we hear around this table and for people who don't have to deal with closures, it's not a problem. But for people that do, it's definitely a problem. That's the frustrating part of the have and have not society we live in.

At least when we were part of the 13th Assembly where we had the whole Northwest Territories, we could relate to all the other communities because we had a majority in this House. Now basically because of the division of the Northwest Territories, we are definitely feeling the effects of that division on our small communities being fairly treated by the Government of the Northwest Territories and other larger centres in the Northwest Territories.

With that, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask for a recorded vote and thank those Members for supporting the motion.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. This ends debate on the motion. Is the House ready for the question?

Some Hon. Members

Question.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

A recorded vote has been requested. Mr. Clerk, a recorded vote. All those in favour, please rise.

Clerk Of The House Mr. Tim Mercer

Mr. Krutko, Mr. Lafferty, Mr. Nitah.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you. All those opposed to the motion, please rise.

Clerk Of The House Mr. Tim Mercer

Mr. Delorey, Ms. Lee, Mr. Roland, Mr. Dent, Mrs. Groenewegen, Mr. McLeod, Mr. Bell, Mr. Braden, Mr. Steen, Mr. Miltenberger, Mr. Antoine, Mr. Kakfwi, Mr. Allen, Mr. Ootes.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you. All those abstaining from the vote, please rise. Thank you. The results of the vote on the motion: those in favour, three; those opposed, 14; those abstaining, zero. Therefore, Motion 21-14(6) has been defeated.

---Defeated

Item 16, motions. Item 17, first reading of bills. Item 18, second reading of bills. Item 19, consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters: Bill 34, Tlicho Land Claims and Self-Government Agreement Act, and Minister's Statement 89-14(6): Infrastructure Canada Commits $65 Million to NWT Resource Highways, with Mr. Delorey in the chair.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

I will call Committee of the Whole to order. We have two items to consider in Committee of the Whole. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Dent.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe committee Members would like to continue consideration of Bill 34.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Does the committee agree?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Does the Minister wish to bring in any witnesses? Mr. Antoine.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Does the committee agree?

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Sergeant-at-Arms, escort the witnesses in, please.

Mr. Minister, could you introduce your witnesses for the record, please.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mr. Chairman, I have to my right Rick Bargery, deputy minister of the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs, and to his right is Mark Aitken with the Department of Justice, and to my left is Martin Goldney, legal counsel with the Department of Justice. Thank you.

Clause By Clause

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. We left off yesterday on page 3 of Bill 34, clause 4. I will call clause 4 again, Mr. Dent.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Since clause 4 deals with the Tlicho agreement in its entirety, I just have some questions about that agreement that I would like to ask the Minister. As I understand it, I'm pretty sure that this has already been confirmed in the House but I'd just like to have it on the record again, there's no way that this agreement can be changed by the Legislative Assembly, is there?

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Antoine.