This is page numbers 1397 - 1454 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was tlicho.

Topics

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1438

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, my question first has to do with the section in the agreement dealing with the judicial proceedings, which is under section 7.6. It states in 7.6.4 and 7.6.6, Mr. Chairman, the capacity of the Tlicho government to act as a prosecutor in dealing with Tlicho laws or prosecuting Tlicho laws in the court of the Northwest Territories. As well, 7.6.6 deals with how those who are prosecuted under Tlicho law in NWT courts are how those convictions or whatever might come that way are enforced. I hope I'm clear about my question here. It certainly deals with how the laws of Tlicho and laws of the NWT will interact. So I would like to seek clarification from the Minister about what the meaning of this section is, first of all, and how would that work in practice. How would it work for the Tlicho laws to be enforced or prosecuted in the courts of the NWT? Am I correct to read that those are just for specific laws of Tlicho, as specified here? Thank you.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Goldney.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Goldney

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member is correct, these provisions deal with Tlicho laws, and where it provides for Tlicho prosecution of those laws it will be Tlicho laws that they're prosecuting and not territorial laws. Perhaps the best way to illustrate how it works is it would work much the same way as the territorial government has the ability to prosecute its own laws in a court, and the federal government has its ability to prosecute. This just sets out the same ability for the Tlicho to prosecute their own laws. Thank you.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Goldney. Ms. Lee.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could I get information for the general public as to what are the major areas of Tlicho law that will be prosecuted under in this context? Thank you.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Goldney.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Goldney

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The law-making powers of the Tlicho government are set out in the agreement and they include, for example, laws over Tlicho citizens in Tlicho lands; laws governing the enforcement of those laws; laws relating to the use and management and protection of Tlicho lands and the renewable and non-renewable resources on lands, including fish, wills, intestacy and the administration of the estates of Tlicho citizens; protection and promotion of Tlicho language, culture and heritage; social assistance; child and family services; adoption; education; pre-schooling; taxation and training by Tlicho government to Tlicho citizens. The agreement also provides for law-making authorities that apply to all residents in Tlicho communities on Tlicho lands and include laws related to Tlicho government structure and internal managements; management over wildlife, trees and plants; renewable and non-renewable resources; land use plans for Tlicho lands; aspects of fish harvesting; use of waters on Tlicho lands; heritage resources on Tlicho lands or in Tlicho communities.

So I think you can see from the list and the jurisdiction set out in the agreement, that it's primarily jurisdictions over Tlicho citizens and Tlicho lands. The expectation is that the Tlicho government will, as governments do, make laws under these jurisdictions, and when they do, they'll be able to prosecute those laws. Thank you.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Goldney. Ms. Lee.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that those are wide and broad areas, but at the same time they are specified and the Tlicho government does not have power to pass laws about everything. This agreement has sections that speak about the areas that the Tlicho government cannot enact laws about. At the same time, I'm still not clear as to how this will work. Are we envisioning two different judicial processes? Are we envisioning two different court systems, or is this agreement envisioning that while the Tlicho government has the power to enact laws and prosecute those who violate them, but that they will use the NWT court system to enact those laws? Am I correct in that understanding? Thank you.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Goldney.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Goldney

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I believe the Member is correct in that understanding.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Goldney. Ms. Lee.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Then I'd like to move on to the next section in the same topic area, where it states under section 7.6.6, it says that the GNWT is responsible for enforcing any fines or imprisonment order for violation of Tlicho law. So in reaching that and reading that with what has been stated here so far, I'm understanding that the Tlicho government will enact laws in certain specified areas, and that they would prosecute any violators under that law in the GNWT courts, and that the GNWT will be responsible for enforcing it. I read from that that the Tlicho citizens, if they are found to be in violation of the law and they are prosecuted, will end up in the GNWT correctional system. So I'm just wondering why this is the way it is. Is it a question of lack of resources, or is that the intention of the Tlicho government, and further what sort of agreement is there with the GNWT Department of Justice or the court system as to how to implement this in practice? Thank you.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Goldney.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Goldney

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the intention there is partly it's resources, and that's why you see the GNWT enforcing laws, but it's also in recognition that the Tlicho agreement doesn't establish a separate court system, doesn't drastically alter the administration of justice in the Northwest Territories which falls to the Government of the Northwest Territories to enforce laws. That's why you have it that way. In practice, to expect that the GNWT will be enforcing laws of the Tlicho government in the same way it enforces its own laws and, in some circumstances, federal laws.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Goldney. Ms. Lee.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

I hope I'm not wrong in that, but I think the federal prosecution also prosecutes NWT laws where it's appropriate. Maybe the Law Clerk could advise on that.

I have a question on the next section dealing with conflict of laws. It says in 7.7.2 that if there is a conflict between Tlicho laws and the laws of Canada, the laws of Canada set the rules. But if there's a conflict between Tlicho laws and the GNWT law, Tlicho law sets the rules. So the way I read it, Canadian laws would trump Tlicho, but Tlicho would trump GNWT law. So now I need to know if that's the correct understanding.

Secondly, I believe that those trumping or the overriding of the powers of Tlicho laws over GNWT in certain circumstances would only be limited to the areas once again specified in this agreement. Thank you.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Goldney.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1439

Goldney

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, the Member is correct. The paramountcy provided is a general rule; except where otherwise provided, Tlicho government laws will prevail over territorial laws. The Member is also correct that Tlicho government laws are restricted to where they have jurisdiction. If the Tlicho government enacts a law that it's found it has exceeded its jurisdiction, then like territorial or federal laws, those laws are ultra vires and have no force and effect. So it is quite limited to the jurisdictions that are set out in the agreement.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1440

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Goldney. Clause 4. Ms. Lee.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1440

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My next question has to do with coordination of program and service delivery. Under section 7.9.1. in the agreement it says that the Tlicho -- and I'm reading from the plain speak -- it says that the Tlicho government, Canada and the GNWT will find new and existing programs and services and they will work together to make sure programs and services are delivered properly. This is a pretty broad, general statement and I'd like to ask the Minister how this would translate in practice. Are there going to be formal agreements in place for that and, if so, the agreement that we're going to have before us, is that speaking to this specific provision? Thank you.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1440

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Antoine.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1440

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Yes, this is setting up something unique with the Tlicho government and the territorial government providing programs and services. So the government and the Tlicho government will exercise their own powers to the extent practical in a manner where they will be coordinating the delivery of programs and services to the citizens in the Tlicho and, of course, to all residents of the Northwest Territories. So where there's a serious disruption in the delivery of programs or services on Tlicho lands or in the Tlicho communities, they will enter into discussions to reach agreement on how to deal with this disruption. Thank you.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1440

The Chair

The Chair Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Antoine. Ms. Lee.

Bill 34: Tlicho Land Claims And Self-government Agreement Act
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1440

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

So are these agreements going to be negotiated once the law comes into place, or are they being negotiated already, or were they negotiated while this agreement was being negotiated, at the same time? Thank you.