This is page numbers 1215 - 1254 of the Hansard for the 14th Assembly, 6th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was communities.

Topics

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I support this motion. I realize what happened a year ago and I would like to remind the Members and I'll quote from Hansard, October 16, 2000, Mr. Kakfwi, "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in early August, Cabinet directed that the Power Corporation should cease consulting on a range of issues, including the single-rate zone. This was not properly communicated, apparently, to the Power Corporation. They went ahead and filed their papers for a single-rate zone in early September. When we had a Cabinet meeting here two weeks ago, we revisited that decision. The decision was maintained and direction was given. They refused to comply, and so their appointments were revoked and a new interim board was put in place. The interim board is expected to withdraw that application and resubmit a new application so that the public process can continue." That is what happened to the single-rate zone and I think for people here that keep harping on the issue of, well, a subsidy is something that we should really look at...What about the individual contractor that has a business who does not get a subsidy? What about someone that runs the Co-op or the Northern Store whose power bills in the winter are in the range of $20,000 a month? All of those dollars that it costs to maintain a small business in the community is outrageous. You cannot compete with Yellowknife, Hay River or Fort Smith in that sector. That is whom this bill is really meant for. We have to really realistically think of the economic well being of the territory as a whole.

We talk about pipelines, diamond mines and all these major things that are going to happen. Why should somebody set up a business in Tulita or in Fort McPherson or anywhere else where you are on power diesel generation, knowing that it is cheaper to basically just fly in and fly out, drive your equipment in and drive it out at the end of the season because there is no reason for anyone to start a business in our small communities under this existing process. That is something that is missing in this discussion.

We keep focusing on a subsidy that you get based on the Yellowknife rate of 700 kilowatts a month. It is great for the residents, but it is not great for business and that is what I am trying to focus on with regard to these discussions. The Northwest Territories communities, especially the communities in the Beaufort-Delta region where they intervened on this issue at the last hearings a number of weeks ago, raised this issue. Regardless that this issue was on the agenda or not, they wanted to make their point clear that we in the Beaufort-Delta and in the Sahtu communities are paying through the nose when it comes to our economic well-being. So for someone starting in the diamond industry or a polishing facility or running Wal-Mart, you already have an upper hand in your business because no one from outside Yellowknife is able to compete because you are on the hydro grid.

I think as a government, we have to face this issue sooner or later. I think we can hide behind a subsidy and say well, you get a subsidy so you are taken care of, we are not taken care of. That is one segment of our community population that you consider. There are other sectors we have to consider and especially the business sector. As a government, we have to pay the actual costs of maintaining power in our communities, our streetlights or running of our municipalities. Those are costs that affect every one of us here. I think for you just to unilaterally say that you oppose the motion because you oppose it, I think you really have to think of what the political implications of doing nothing are. I think by doing nothing and just continuing on, we will always continue to see have and have-not communities.

The biggest asset we have as a government is the Power Corporation, which is owned by everyone, so why can't everyone benefit as a territory and enhance our economic well-being by ensuring that we have an electrical grid system that is not only competitive but it is fair across the board to all Northerners; regardless if you are in Holman Island, Tsiigehtchic, Colville Lake, Fort Smith, Yellowknife or Hay River?

I think it is important that we seriously realize what the pros and cons about the single rate zone are. Yes, there are pros to realizing that you do get a subsidy in the small communities, but you have a lot of communities who still depend a lot on diesel generation to run your furnace or your heating system or your power generator or even electrical outlets that you have in your communities have a lot to do with it, but you don't have another source of energy that runs your water treatment plants or maintains a lot of public facilities in your communities. Technically, you are paying for it. I think as a government and a legislature, we have to realize that the motion directs the government to consider resubmitting the application.

Another point I would like to make in regard to the Premier's statement in Hansard on October 16, 2002, a small sentence at the bottom of the page says "Cabinet should not reject the idea of a single-rate zone. It should stop consultation on it until the energy strategy is completed." That is an important point I make. The energy strategy has been completed. There is no reference to a single-rate zone. A single-rate zone is probably something that was said to them time and time again, yet they haven't mentioned it in their energy strategy. Or is that again another waste of a couple million dollars on a report that, as far as I am concerned, is fluff. It doesn't have anything in it that you can't get off the Internet. I think as a government that we should have taken that money, put it into a public hearing process for a single-rate zone. At the end of the day, we could have gotten a decision one way or the other, but at least we would have got something out of it.

I think it's important that we, as a government, realize that issue isn't going to go away. Hopefully the people who are running in this election will make this an election issue. I feel that our small communities and people outside the hydro grid system have just as much right to power in the Northwest Territories and be treated as fairly as anyone else. Especially coming from a small business community.

We talk about all these major projects in the Northwest Territories. But if we can't compete fairly, how can we expect to benefit fairly.

I would just like to close on a note that I will be supporting this motion, and at the right time I will be asking for a recorded vote.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. To the motion. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Handley.

Joe Handley

Joe Handley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don't wish to debate the merits of a one-rate system versus community-based rates today. I think there are good arguments on both sides, and I certainly look forward to advice from Members.

I do want to point out one thing though. I believe, and I don't have a copy of the motion, but I believe the motion was to withdraw the current application and file another one, based on a single-rate zone. It's a bit late to do that, Mr. Speaker. The PUB has already basically made their decision on the old application, have asked the Power Corporation for further information on rate schedules and so on. That has been filed and we expect to have the final go-ahead from the PUB within the next week or so in order to have the rates come into effect in November.

So I think it's pretty much impossible. I think this is a good debate. I think it's good to have it, but I think it's one that might be a better debate when we are at the point where the Power Corporation is filing another application with the PUB. This particular one has been going on for 30 months, since they filed the original phase I application and it has been a long drawn-out one. I think this one has now reached the point where it is virtually impossible to withdraw it and do something different. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Handley. To the motion. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just want to put on record my position on this motion, Mr. Speaker. I will not be supporting this motion, and that's because while I do believe that the issues being raised by the Members for North Slave and Mackenzie Delta are valid ones, and obviously very complex too, we have to take into account what Mr. Handley has indicated.

Put simply, I'm opposing this motion at this time mainly for process reasons. There is no question that this file has not been handled as well as it should have been from the beginning of this legislature. It's hard for me to recall everything, but I do remember a number of studies being done on this issue. I recall the electric generation and distribution studies. For the energy strategy, we've had a hydro strategy on the go, and I just think that it's better at this juncture to leave it for the next Assembly to review some of the findings of the study. They should get consensus built on the political will and political direction and to work with the board of the corporation to better coordinate this time so that nothing like what happened last time is repeated.

So simply, Mr. Speaker, we just haven't had a chance to debate fully on the implications of the latest ruling of the board. I just feel, as I said, at this juncture on the eve of the dissolution of this Assembly, this is just not the right time. So for that reason I will not be supporting the motion at this time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Ms. Lee. To the motion.

An Hon. Member

Question.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Question has been called. Mr. Lafferty, you have the opportunity to close the debate.

Leon Lafferty North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My colleagues on this side, one spoke for it and the rest against. The reasons, the excuses they use was the subsidy. Well, I think the subsidy was something that some politician put in there because they felt so guilty about what they were doing to the smaller communities. They're trying to bring the smaller communities up to a certain little level because of their guilt, and because of that they put the subsidy in. It doesn't even meet at a certain level at all.

We have people in the South Slave paying $60 a month for their power, while you have people in Colville Lake paying $400 or $500 a month. Is that fair? Does the subsidy bring them up? No. If it wasn't for the subsidy it would be maybe $1000, but, hey, because they felt guilty, we'll give them a little subsidy, they'll feel better now, but they're still going to have to pay the cost. So that's what the subsidy is all about. It's just some guilty trip from former politicians. That's all it was there for.

Talking about a subsidy. If I had put a motion here in the House saying well, from today on the study will be based on Fort Smith rates, I'm sure everybody on this side of the House would have jumped on the bandwagon and talked on the motion for the motion. I'm sure they would have. Even that side would have.

An Hon. Member

Hear, hear!

Leon Lafferty North Slave

But I didn't do that, that was my mistake.

---Laughter

So, Mr. Speaker, one other Member said that we can't ignore the rules and the boards that were put in place. Hey, we did that last November. We canned a board. Cabinet canned a board because they didn't like the decision. Now we're saying well, we can't, we can't do anything with the new board. Well, look, we put them in there to do a job for the people of the Northwest Territories. If they're not doing that job, then they deserved to be canned. I say that. Their job was to make sure that the power rates were fair for everybody in the Territories. That was their job, to make sure it's all fair, but they haven't done their job. They should be getting their pink slips tomorrow.

---Interjection

Leon Lafferty North Slave

Yes, off with their head, that's what we want to say. Why should the people be there if they're not doing their job? People are being canned for less than that. We saw it last year. They were trying to do for the people of the Northwest Territories. You guys can't do anything, get out of here. We'd like to keep the place where it is. That's what was said.

We have a document called "Towards a Better Tomorrow." What kind of tomorrow are we expecting for people who we're taking the money out of their pockets, taking the food out of their kids' mouths because we have to turn on an extra light because it's dark for 10 months of the year in some of the higher Arctic? It's not the same as being in Fort Smith. In Fort Smith you have more daylight than anywhere else in the rest of the Territories, and you have the lowest rate. What I'm trying to say here is let's be fair to everyone, but we aren't doing that.

Then it was mentioned that we have the strategy. Well the strategy, if you read it, all it says is conserve this, conserve, it's good for you. But some of these small communities have substandard homes. They don't have the quarter-million-dollar houses like they have in Yellowknife or Hay River or Fort Smith, with R2000 rating or whatever they call it. These people don't even burn one fuel tank a year. If you have a small community with a substandard home, you're burning three fuel tanks a year, and maybe six or seven cords of wood at the same time. These people are struggling in these communities. They turn on the fans in their home because it's too hot in Yellowknife sometimes. Look at the apartments that some of the people are living in. They have their windows wide open. They can't even open the door in some of the houses because it's so cold, and here we're saying it's okay, don't worry about them, just continue. You can't do that.

This study that they gave to us for the energy strategy was a lie, because the one-rate system was one good thing that the Premier said was going to be there. The Minister responsible for the Power Corporation said it was going to be in there. They promised it to us. Just like the BIP, they promised it to us. But they turned around and did the opposite. Turn off your lights. Turn off your lights. Your power won't go high, they say. How are you going to heat your home? Some of the larger centres like Yellowknife, Fort Smith and Hay River have a water system that you don't even need a pump. When you turn on your water tap and you get water, your pump doesn't even go on. If you go to a home in one of the smaller communities, you turn on the pump to get your water because that's the only way to get your power.

So why are we here? If we're going to be here just to pick and choose where we need to make legislation, then we're here for the wrong reason. We're here for everybody. Like I said when I first started speaking on this, we say it in our prayer every day before we start in this House. Maybe it's time to change the prayer. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Is the House ready for the question? The chair recognizes the honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

I would like to request a recorded vote.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you. The honourable Member is seeking a recorded vote. Mr. Clerk, prepare the documents. All those in favour of the motion, please rise.

Recorded Vote

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Lafferty, Mr. Krutko.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you. All those opposed to the motion, please rise.

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Ms. Lee, Mr. Roland, Mr. Dent, Mr. Bell, Mr. Braden, Mr. Delorey.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you. All those abstaining from the vote, please rise.

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Steen, Mr. Miltenberger, Mr. Antoine, Mr. Handley, Mr. Allen, Mr. Ootes.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

The results of the vote on the motion: those in favour, two; those opposed, six; those abstaining, six. The motion is defeated.

---Defeated

Item 16, motions. Motion 19-14(6), the honourable Member for Yellowknife South, Mr. Bell.

Brendan Bell

Brendan Bell Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a motion to amend Rule 85(4) of the rules of the Legislative Assembly.

WHEREAS the Special Committee on the Implementation of Self-Government and the Sunset Clause recommended in Committee Report 12-14(6) that the Standing Committee on Rules and Procedures be given responsibility for monitoring and reporting on the implications which implementation of self-government agreements will have on the powers, structures and procedures of the Legislative Assembly;

AND WHEREAS the Legislative Assembly adopted, by motion in Committee of the Whole, the recommendation of the Special Committee on the Implementation of Self-Government and the Sunset Clause;

NOW THEREFORE I MOVE, seconded by the honourable Member for Great Slave, that Rule 85(4) of the rules of the Legislative Assembly be amended by renumbering Rule 85(4)(b) as 85(4)(c) and adding the following after Rule 85(4)(a):

(b) Review and make recommendations on the implications and impacts that the implementation of self-government agreements will have on the powers, structures and procedures of the Legislative Assembly; and

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Bell. We have a motion on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion. The honourable Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, initially when looking at this motion I had some concerns in the wording of this, and it talks about the Standing Committee on Rules and Procedures will be given responsibility for monitoring and reporting on implications which implementation of self-government agreements will have on the power, structure and procedures of the Legislative Assembly.

Mr. Speaker, that's a very broad category, and my initial concerns were in the area that, for example, we're dealing with some of those acts as a government now and would those then be reported to that committee. But it has been clarified to me that in fact it would more do with the rules as we go on day-to-day business as a government, not looking at legislation and approving or disapproving of that legislation. The other committees would still have that role. This would just be an internal process, and once that was clarified, Mr. Speaker, I could look at it and support that motion. But initially when looking at it, I was concerned that this would open the doors to quite a different process and was concerned about that. But that has been clarified, and I've been informed that legislative matters and bills that we deal with would not be going to that committee, but would be going through the regular process. So with that and on that understanding, I would support this motion. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Tony Whitford

Thank you, Mr. Roland. To the motion.