This is page numbers 1715 - 1769 of the Hansard for the 15th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was housing.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Robert Hawkins

Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I too, as well as the other Members, am

concerned on the development of this new mandate. My concern is will Regular Members be consulted long after it's already been carved in stone and can I seek clarity? I know the Minister had said earlier that there would be a consultation process, but where is this new mandate in the development stage? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Ramsay

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Like I stated earlier, Mr. Chairman, it is in draft form right now. Again, it will have to go to Cabinet so they have an opportunity to see the draft and see exactly if we're going in the right direction and then, from there, we need to take it back. Then we'll basically consider making those changes. From there, we'll include the Members or committees to ensure that while we're still in the draft framework, that we are developing it with input from Members and also with the direction of Cabinet. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Ramsay

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Robert Hawkins

Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There's no question that the Members have been concerned with the mandate of the Housing Corporation, and the Members want assurance that the Housing Corporation is on line and on target. I just hate to think that this redevelopment of the mandate or a resurgence of this new mandate won't be brought forward in time with good input from Members. I just want to be sure that it comes forward with consultation in advance, and I wouldn't want to think that Cabinet sort of develops this without us. I need to clearly see that it gets developed in concert with Regular Members, because I think Regular Members have a lot of input. I can tell you right now that the Housing Corporation is doing its market housing survey and how did we leave out a community like Sachs Harbour or Holman when we did our housing surveys? I mean, the answer may not be as simple as that, but there are always questions coming forward about how we are doing business and could we do business better. It's not that we're not trying hard, I wouldn't want to imply that in any way. But I want to be sure today that Regular Members are going to be consulted on this. This is a big policy shift and this is a good opportunity to be a part of this type of policy shift.

So what we're doing today, people may just think it's not much, it's just a line item of changing the mandate, but really we're changing the history of the Housing Corporation for maybe 10 or 20 years now and we have to be comfortable that we have a good say in it now. So I just want to be clear that the Housing Corporation mandate won't be all wrapped up with a nice bow by the time we get it. I'd like to see it in working form and draft form, long before it's carved in stone. If the Minister can assure me, and all the Regular Members here, then I think I don't have any further questions on the mandate. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Ramsay

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, like I stated, it is in draft form. We are proceeding and we will allow input by the Members to ensure that they have a chance to have input while it's still in the draft framework. Again, we have been listening to the issues that have been raised in the House during the last two budget cycles. I think it's important that we build those into any mandate of the corporation. Again, we all realize that it's been a while since the corporation has had its mandate reviewed, but also the direction of the corporation has to change. We all realize that. It's a 30-year-old institution and it has to be shaken up every once in awhile just to make sure you are going in the right direction. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Ramsay

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Hawkins.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Robert Hawkins

Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll just provide a small comment; no further question. I appreciate that offer to give us a chance to look at that and I will say that the Minister has shown his willingness to us and the department is willing to engage into some of our ideas. So I'll make sure that gets on the record too. I mean, we can sit here and we can complain about a department and we only say that out of concern. I hope no one thinks it's personal, but we also have to make sure that we put on record that we see good work by the department. As I said the other day, the department is responding by hearing from Members, and I can say personally moving forward on those barrier-free units is a clear example that I've seen just recently that they are listening. So no further comments or questions at this time. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Ramsay

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. We'll go with Mr. Menicoche next, and then Mr. Zoe.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

He went already, I'll go first.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Ramsay

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Zoe.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

March 2nd, 2005

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you. Mr. Chairman, just a few comments. First of all I want to follow up on Mr. Hawkins' line of questioning. My concern is in regard to the new mandate that the Minister is working on. I understand that it's going to go forward to Cabinet, et cetera, but this current year, 2005-06, the money for social housing is going to be transferred over to ECE so they can administer housing they have, from my understanding. Part of the thinking is to make the social programs one-window shopping, that your department was considering moving the social housing component of your budget over to ECE. Am I correct? But if that happens, Mr. Chairman, how will the local housing authority manage ECE having the money? Are things going to drastically change, because we do have a number of agreements with the Housing Corporation and our local housing authorities and I am wondering if there's going to be any glitches by us going in that direction? We know for a fact, Mr. Chairman, even with it being in the Housing Corporation, we still have a lot of glitches that still have to be worked out. We have a number of our local housing associations administering the various programs, especially the Social Housing Program.

On the second phase of the market housing initiative, affordable housing, I, too, am in support of this initiative. I hope the Minister goes ahead with phase two. As I said earlier in my Member's statement in the House, Mr. Chairman, in my view, my region should have been considered in phase one. Right now we're currently behind. We can't hire our staff now because there's no housing available. We're waiting for the budget to be

approved so we can continue on with the work, but it has to be fast-tracked; I hope right after April 1st. I know there are concerns from the Housing Corporation in terms of our new land claims and self-government agreement that has been passed, particularly in relation to land, and I know his department has been working closely with MACA and the other affected departments so that there are going to be issues surrounding the land issue. Nevertheless, Mr. Chairman, I think those issues can be dealt with at a later date. The effective date is not going to be until some time this summer and I think we have to move on the second phase and put affordable housing for our workers at the community level. That's critical right now because we can't hire any new people in my region. That's why I am in support of phase two. I think at a later date we can work out all these other legal things that we have to do pertaining to our land issues at our community level in the North Slave, in the Tlicho region.

Another point I wanted to make was that if we transfer all the social housing to ECE, would that also incorporate the elders and the disabled peoples' type of housing also over there? Overall, Mr. Chairman, there are also issues right now that the Housing Corporation is dealing with pertaining to social housing. I mentioned in my Member's statement also, that we have to find new ways to try to get these people who are in social housing into homeownership and we have to look at what we're going to do with their arrears. If they are going into homeownership, can we incorporate them into their mortgage or what other method do we have to help these individuals that want to get into their own homes? That seems to be a problem and, because of their arrears, they can't get bank financing and so forth. That's why it's a big issue in my riding, particularly in Rae-Edzo and a lot of people want to get out of social housing so they can own their own unit.

Those are just a few of my general comments pertaining to housing, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Ramsay

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in regard to the transition of the social funding from the Housing Corporation to the Department of Education, this year it's pretty well just a paper transfer. We'll transfer it in and then the money comes back to us and we designate it to the LHOs. But as of April 1st next year, they're hoping to be able to pull all of the social dollars...like you mentioned, a one-stop shop. So that's sort of the process we're going through this year. We will still continue to allocate. Eighty-eight percent of the money we get goes to local housing authorities for those programs.

With regard to the market housing initiative, we are definitely looking at the six units for Rae, but also we realize Rae is unique; it has some major challenges in front of it and, because of that, as a corporation we are looking at Rae as a pilot project of how do we resolve these issues because of the economics of that community. I think you touched on the area of people that are working in the mines, but because they have no other alternatives, they're in arrears and all this other stuff. So in that case we are trying to get our minds around that. How do you resolve these issues, especially with the housing crunch that Rae is in right now? Because of that, we realize that just to bring you up to the 30 percent mark, you need 35 houses and we know you are not going to get 35 houses overnight, but we have to find ways of getting people in that.

We are looking at Rae in regard to trying to resolve that but, again, I think with market housing going in there, six units, also we are working with the private sector in Rae to see if they are also willing to partner up to get them to develop a market in Rae and use the grant programs through CMHC, loan guarantees or whatever to get someone from the community involved in housing. That is where we are going in regard to that issue. We are trying to find unique ways of dealing with the problem you have in Rae. We realize it is a unique situation and we do have some big problems there and we realize that we have to put more focus and emphasis especially in Rae, because of the high percentages of the core need in that community. That is where we are going and hoping that we are able to resolve most of these issues this year. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Ramsay

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Zoe.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister is correct; prior to Christmas, the Minister's staff had a public meeting with the residents, especially with regard to the rent scale increase. There was a lot of media attention brought forward, particularly on arrears in Rae-Edzo and how we can try to resolve that particular issue. The Minister will recall that we had a delegation of people meeting with you pertaining to their own individual needs for their own cases that they wanted to discuss with you.

I know that the Housing Corporation is doing as much as they can to try to resolve as many cases as they can, but I think more emphasis from the regional office, more resources and more meetings with individuals that are in this predicament have to be dealt with right away. The sooner we deal with these issues, the fewer problems you will have. I think it is very critical now because, as you said, the need in Rae-Edzo particularly is really high and if we wait any longer, the demand for housing is going to go higher and higher and higher and we will never catch up. That is my big concern, Mr. Chairman, in regard to those six units the Minister spoke of. I hope he will move on it as soon as possible. We are on the road system and I hope that as soon as this budget gets passed, as to what the corporation's plans are pertaining to those six units...I have eight coming to my area, but I am more worried with Rae because the Dogrib Community Services Board has been waiting for the last few months because things haven't been done to date pertaining to affordable housing for our community workers that we want to hire, but we have no housing. I would like to ask the Minister what are the future plans after April 1st, for those six units going to Rae? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Ramsay

Thank you Mr. Zoe. Mr. Minister.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Well, the sooner we get into line by line in House, we will get the budget passed, we can order these units and get them into the communities. But the key is that we have to have the budget passed before we can put orders in and also between that and other challenges to making sure that we can still access the ice road to Rae Lakes, because we have two units going there. We are hoping to get them over the winter road this year but, again, once the budget is passed, then we can

start looking at getting orders out to get those units in and try to have them in there; especially, like I say, over the ice road by this spring, because we have a tight deadline on this one. The key is getting the budget passed and then from there making those expenditures. Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair David Ramsay

Thank you, Mr. Minister. At this time we are going to take a short recess and then we will resume. We have two other Members for general comments after a short recess. Thank you.

---SHORT RECESS

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Calvin Pokiak

Welcome back after the break. General comments. I have Mr. Menicoche.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to continue with my comments where I left off. Once again, government astounds me.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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An Hon. Member

Astounding.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

It's astounding on where they want to go. They have some plan and they just think that they got the go-ahead to do it without checking things out. Well even without checking things out themselves, they just went ahead and did it. But there will be more on that later, it's not like they are going to institute it by April 1st. That is what the Minister tells me and I am fine with that. There will be time enough to fight that battle on another note.

Just with that, a day doesn't go by, Mr. Minister, that I don't get a fax or a letter or an e-mail from somebody having problems with their houses. In this case it has to do with getting a loan for repairs. This person says, hey, they are just treating us like beaver pelts. It's not what we are worth but about how much money they can get out of us. That is how our whole focus has changed away from social housing, and people do not really understand what is going on, especially when a lot of the fault is through the Housing Corporation. The people are still blaming it on faulty construction, and there was already an inspector inspecting my house and now that it is broken down within five years, how come I am expected to pay for it. I have told them right up front that it is the corporation's fault.

That leads me to my other point, Mr. Chairman. What I have been finding out for a year-and-a-half is that they are coming to me and expecting me to make things right. So I will go to the Minister and the corporation and say look, this person is having this kind of problem, but it just dawned on me -- and I think I've told this House before -- that they are appealing to me, is what is going on. I go to the corporation and say can you make this right? I'm saying, why are they doing this? I talk to the corporation and they are saying if that person has a problem, why don't they talk to their local manager and use the system? I say, well, that kind of makes sense, so I go check with the people and what is going on is that it's not really an appeal process if you are going to talk to the person that said no to you in the first place. What kind of an appeal system is that?

I think I have brought it up before. I said our Housing Corporation Act is very old, it's from about 1978. I think that it is really time to revisit it. I am sincere about this. We have to revisit it, restructure it and ensure that there is a responsible, independent appeal process somewhere where people can go. In fact, we have been beating up on ECE pretty good here, but they have an appeal process that works and if we have something like that with our Housing Corporation, that would go a long ways for our clients and for our constituents knowing they did everything they could to right a wrong; exhausted every possibility to right their wrong. That's all they want and expect, that we look at what has been wrong and go through it thoroughly. Like in this case, this person was on the right track getting things done and then, for whatever reason, we changed ministries and this person got lost in the shuffle and they contacted me again to say what's happening with my roof, it's rotten. I thought we had a solution and now we have to start all over again. That's really frustrating because that person does indeed have to start over again right from filling out their application and all the way down.

I'd just like to tell the corporation, aside from this issue, I just wanted to point out the real people and the real issues they're frustrated with. Things will be a lot better, I think, if we institute some kind of appeal program. The Yukon Housing Corporation, in fact, when they redid their act, they included an appeal system and it's quite successful. In fact, the way we do it, Mr. Chairman, is every time our clients or the constituents get a letter from the Housing Corporation it says if you don't like this decision please get a hold of the district manager. That just doesn't work. You're going to the person who said no. Why would I want to keep going back to the person who said no?

The way they do it in the Yukon is if you don't like this decision -- and it happens with ECE, too -- here's the independent appeal board you go to, here's where you bring your concerns, and I believe there's even a hearing where you can attend if it's going to be held in your community or you can send somebody there. That's due diligence, that's due process, that's hearing people and that's what I'd like the Housing Corporation to do and move towards. It makes life a little bit easier for the people and that's all we have to do.

Another area that concerns me today is what the honourable Member brought up in his Member's statement today is the affirmative action program. I'm not too sure where the Housing Corporation is going with that. I notice it's visibly absent from the main estimate reviews as a target or achievable goal. I know we're doing quite well in the communities, but overall, when you come to the Yellowknife area, our affirmative action targets go right out the window. So I'm thinking, is it possible to start to put our affirmative action targets back into the main estimates? Apparently, I don't know how long ago it was, Mr. Chairman, we used to have a central HR position and the affirmative action targets were listed in there for each department and when we spread it over the departments, gave the authorities back to the departments, that was gone. Those targets disappeared from the main estimates and the budgeting process. Now it looks like we're moving back to centralizing this HR thing and for me it's important to have it listed again because I know how bureaucrats operate now. They operate with what's in here. If the affirmative action targets aren't in here, they're not going to make any efforts in order to achieve their goals and objectives. It's not a goal and objective if it's not written down, Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Hear! Hear!