This is page numbers 1715 - 1769 of the Hansard for the 15th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was housing.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1753

Bill Braden

Bill Braden Great Slave

Okay. One other area that I wanted to explore here. Really it goes beyond the market housing initiative. It is a much more significant piece of work that lies before the corporation and probably more so before this government, and that is to figure out a way to replace what is now I think a $35 million contribution that we get from CMHC. It's $33 million, Madam Chair, which is over in about the next 20 years because it's going to be sunsetting. This is an enormous challenge. Madam Chair, what are we going to do to replace this level of investment and contribution into our housing infrastructure? The expectations that we've had and I know the Minister has had them, he has made quite a lot of comment about meeting with federal Housing Minister Joe Fontana and it's great to have these relationships and these meetings, but there was nothing, Madam Chair, in the federal budget for public housing. This lack of commitment from the federal government shocked people across the country. I'm looking at a news article from a national daily, Madam Chair, that describes how bitter everybody is at the federal government's failure to live up to a promise or a pledge that was out there for about $1.5 billion in housing funds that were promised by the Liberals. So we've got a real uphill battle here, Madam Chair. How does the Minister propose to go about restoring $33 million a year that is slowly slipping away from us? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Braden. Mr. Krutko.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, with regard to the mandate one of the main components is that, as a corporation, we realize we have these declining dollars that are not going to be there. How do we replenish our cash flow to bring other cash in? One of the ways is to sell off our old housing stock and use those dollars and put them into more energy-efficient units like multi-plex units. So we'll sell three or four houses and we'll build multi-plex units, maybe eight or 10 units. That way we can continue to find that balance. I think we have to realize that you talk about nothing in the budget, but Fontana, it was in the Liberal red book and it was also a commitment they made at an aboriginal conference they had where they mentioned $1 billion for aboriginal housing, but in the budget they mention $275 million.

As Housing Ministers across Canada, we're having the same problem across the board because there's almost $2 billion of federal money that is in this social fund that's declining right across Canada. It's affecting some 650,000 homes across Canada. Those are dollars that are declining. So the $33 million that we're talking about declining, that's our operational money for our social houses. So we do have to find other initiatives. I mentioned earlier that we are developing a northern housing strategy to look at ways of how we can address the housing needs in the Northwest Territories, but also meeting our housing challenges to find unique ways to try to get these houses on the ground, develop a budget around it, do an estimation of what the cost is going to be, take that to Ottawa and say look, this is the problem we have, this is how many houses we're going to need. Also through our needs surveys and the information we've developed so far, there's a clear picture that we have to deal with this crisis. So the way we are approaching this is we are developing a northern housing strategy for the Northwest Territories along with our counterparts in Nunavut and the Yukon so that we can go there as a northern front to our First Ministers' meeting with the federal Ministers and also provincial Housing Ministers to look at how do we change. This program is no longer going to exist, so what do we put in place to replace that program? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1753

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. General comments. No further general comments? We will proceed with detail. Does the committee agreed?

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Okay. Page 8-11, activity summary, NWT Housing Corporation, operations expenditure summary. Mr. Braden.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1753

Bill Braden

Bill Braden Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I would like to move a motion. I move...Should we wait for it to be distributed first, Madam Chairperson? Thank you.

Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Braden. As soon as the written form is distributed, would you then proceed with your motion? Mr. Braden.

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 1753

Bill Braden

Bill Braden Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I move that this committee recommends that the government evaluate and restructure the current market initiative to ensure more stringent control of costs, results and efficiency;

And further that its objective be exclusively to serve the needs of the original target market, namely essential community workers.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Braden. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Braden.

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Bill Braden

Bill Braden Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I don't think I need to be too lengthy here because I would be repeating what I have already said not too long ago. But I do believe that it is worth having back on the record, because some more Members are back in the House and not engaged in too many sidebar discussions.

Madam Chairperson, the motion is directed at the government, not the Housing Corporation. The market housing initiative is an instrument of the government; they only directed the Housing Corporation to implement it. We have heard many, many very critical comments of the performance of the Housing Corporation in instituting this directive.

My intention here, Madam Chairperson, is not to threaten this program or the investment in this much needed housing requirement. In fact, my colleagues have really helped to bring me to ground on this. We had a little bit of a wrestling match earlier today and they brought me to my senses.

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

That was hard.

---Applause

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Bill Braden

Bill Braden Great Slave

I know; I had to work at it. My position on this is much less radical than it was a little while ago, Madam Chairperson. I believe that it is still a constructive one, because the mistakes that were made in this program, which I have not heard the corporation is prepared or willing to address or correct, have got to be fixed at the Cabinet stage. Go back and re-examine that directive, tighten it up and please bring it back to its original and its most appropriate purpose, which was to help the small communities bring in and house essential community workers.

If the Housing Corporation wants to engage in other kinds of initiatives, I am more than happy to look at it, but don't ask me to consider one program and then have it twist and change its shape into something else. That is not acceptable. That is why I bring this motion forward and I hope my colleagues will support me in having a more efficient program delivered to our communities. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Braden. To the motion. I have Mr. Menicoche, Ms. Lee, Mr. Zoe, Mr. Hawkins, in that order please. Next, Mr. Menicoche, to the motion.

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I would like to speak to the motion. In my two or three general remarks I never had the opportunity to get to the market housing initiative. I'm sort of glad, because now I have a chance to talk about it. I would like to say that, yes, I am in support of the market housing initiative.

---Applause

Well, that being said...

---Laughter

That being said, Madam Chairperson, it has come to the point where I don't care how we got the houses in the communities, as long as they got there.

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Hear! Hear!

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Government went headlong into this initiative last year and largely because of something that I probably said, too. I take ownership for wanting to get those houses in the community real quickly. As I have always said, its staff housing. Sorry; it's not staff housing, it's housing for staff, Madam Chairperson, and that is the need. Just the other day the chief from Nahanni Butte gave me a call and said I want one of those too. How can I get in on that? So I have given it some thought and, Madam Chairperson, I like the way it is being planned for this coming year.

I, too, am not happy the way it got rolled out last year and the huge costs and I didn't know that we had sent some up to Alaska but...

---Laughter

I don't like how they rolled it out last year, they have a better plan this year and it can be better yet. I believe that the corporation can do it better yet, using some of the words in this motion like efficiency, controlling costs, and it's just a matter of perhaps putting one person on it, Madam Chairperson, and making sure that the rollout this coming year is done more efficiently and not so rushed.

I still think it will work, because this time around we are talking about affordable rent; $900 per month, which includes utilities, if I heard the Minister properly in the briefings. That is what people want. I believe the professionals, the teachers and the nurses, that we want and we drag to the communities, we have to provide for them and this is one of the ways of doing it. I am very supportive of this and I am just hoping that the other units that are out there, the ones that are unoccupied, that the corporation really takes an honest look at those and reduces the cost and stretches it out over a longer period, because I know that they want full cost recovery on these units and that is what we want the corporation to do, but they have to spread it out longer.

The units that are there now make them more affordable. That is one of our goals, affordable, accessible housing and that means market housing too. So they are going to have to really bite the bullet on this one and take a bit of a loss. Lord knows how many losses we have been taking over the year-and-a-half I have been in the government. A little bit of a loss in market housing, I don't think it's going to hurt very much, but it will help the people in the smaller communities. That is exactly where we are headed and I am supportive of it. Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. To the motion then, please, Ms. Lee.

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Just a short comment in support of the motion, Madam Chairperson. I need to say that it is not usual to see this kind of excitement from Mr. Braden.

---Laughter

We all have a different level of excitability and I can tell you from my experience, that he has demonstrated a huge level of passion and commitment to this issue. I have to tell you that the Minister has beaten us down on this argument...

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

No. Never.

---Laughter

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

...and he did a fine job defending this project. He is going to have a doubly more difficult job defending this next year if he doesn't demonstrate the performance that he has promised us. This motion is not stopping the initiative, it is only asking something fair, and this is not about communities to big cities or anything. It is about doing something new that government is doing, but doing it better. I don't think that is asking for a lot. I support this and I think the Minister and the department got our point. I think that there were some legitimate points that we had to raise and have been raised and repeated and reinforced and made impressions on. I think that this is a good end to this debate and I would really like to ask the colleagues on this side of the table to be generous in this late evening and support this, at least for the spirit of it. Thank you.

---Applause

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Ms. Lee. To the motion, Mr. Zoe.

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

March 3rd, 2005

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I sort of have difficultly with the language that is being used in the motion. I realize that phase two is going to go ahead, but my understanding was that we were going to ask the government to evaluate after phase two to fix up all the problems that they had in phase one, so that they don't repeat the errors that they have done. After they do phase two, then we want the government to do an evaluation on those phases and then do a report and hopefully during the business deliberations in the fall, we will have some sort of report pertaining to this on the evaluation to say how good of a job has been done and then we will take it from there for the following year. That was my understanding.

The way the motion reads, I don't know what the mover means by restructuring the current market housing initiative. I don't think we need to restructure it. Maybe improve the current market housing Initiative pertaining to, rather than amortizing it over a number of 20 years, maybe to 25 years, so that it is more affordable for the clients. Those are the types of things that this evaluation would take into consideration, is stuff like that, to make improvements on it, not to restructure. I don't know what he means by restructuring. I have difficulty with the wording of it.

We want to see the results and to be more efficient. I am in favour of phase two and I am in favour of an evaluation at the end of phase two. I am not sure if I am going to support this or not, because the wording is not really what the intent was. Thank you.

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Is that the end of your comments to the motion? Okay. Next on the list, Mr. Hawkins.

Committee Motion 26-15(3): Recommendation To Evaluate And Restructure The Market Housing Initiative, Carried
Item 19: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Robert Hawkins

Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Madam Chairperson. As I see this, our job is to build our communities one modular or doublewide at a time. That is what we are doing here, building our communities.

Madam Chairperson, the problem here is some of the issues that we have are...We changed the communities the moment that we said we were going to put one of these in there. We are going into communities that had primarily social housing and now we are introducing a market housing initiative and it is changing these markets. It is never going to be perfect, no matter what we do. I can't support this motion right now, especially when it has something like essential community workers because it takes out the flexibility that they may need. I don't think that this is going to work and I really hope that Mr. Braden will reconsider and vote against this motion...

---Laughter

...because it doesn't provide the flexibility the department needs. I think in the first paragraph it talks about working harder and making sure that this is more stringent and the costs are under control. I think that the department has already got the message that there were concerns the first time around, and I'm sure Mr. Krutko got that message loud and clear from all of us, that we are really concerned about this. The headhunters have taken notes and names and we will be watching next year, very closely, on how this one works out. We have Mr. Krutko on the top of the list. I will be voting against this motion because I just don't think that it is productive to the long-term needs of the communities and, like I said earlier, this evening, which at the rate we are going was probably about five hours ago, these are necessary items in these communities to build capacity in these communities. I will be voting against this motion I don't think it is productive to the needs. Thank you.