This is page numbers 4365 - 4410 of the Hansard for the 16th Assembly, 4th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Mr. Speaker, I was wondering, again getting back to… Again, this is about process, Mr. Speaker. The sole-source contract to BDK, I’m just wondering whether that cooling off period was respected and I want to ask the Premier, was there any discussion at the Cabinet table about the sole-source contract to this company. Was there any political involvement in the hiring through sole-source of this company?

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Mr. Speaker, when departments fall within the policy that is in place, there is no purpose for it to come to Cabinet except, for example, negotiated contracts and, again, depending on the dollar value of that. Let’s be clear so we don’t muddy the waters when it comes to the Olympics. There was an RFP, is my understanding,

for that Olympic process that went out there again in conjunction with our partner territories. But when it comes to department initiatives, if they fit within the policy and the approval limits, then that’s just normal course of business that’s out there. Thank you.

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

I wanted to follow up on that and I just wanted to get some clarity here so that I’m sure how this works and the public is sure how it works. Who ultimately makes the call on hiring a former deputy minister through a sole-source contract? Is it the other deputy minister, their former colleague, or is it the Minister of the department that makes that call, Mr. Speaker? I just wanted to be clear on that question. Thank you.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Mr. Speaker, the approval process is laid out. There are some dollar figures. So a contract could be let at a community or regional level and it could be let to a past employee of the Government of the Northwest Territories if they’re a year, two years, five years, ten years. As the record shows, and public accounts and our contracts document shows that there’s been those, an example of those, used by governments throughout different Assemblies on that initiative. Again, it depends on the dollar value. You could have directors issuing a contract all the way up to deputy ministers as well as up to Minister’s approval. So there are different steps. Again, without getting into details, this is the best we can do in providing you information. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Final supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

David Ramsay

David Ramsay Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to thank the Premier for that response, but I didn’t really get an answer that was satisfactory. Does the Minister of the various departments that’s giving out the contract, do they get involved in the decision to sole-source a contract to a former deputy minister? I think that’s a very straightforward question, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Mr. Speaker, on a normal course of business, when a deputy minister wants to inform the Minister of different contracts being issued that might cause some concern, they raise it to that level. So, yes, the Minister’s office can get involved in issuing a contract as the process allows for. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Bromley.

Bob Bromley

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Premier as well. I want to follow up on the questions I asked over the last number of months on sole-source contracting. Obviously it

was quite a concern and we had some really good examples. I happened to be dealing with Ministers; now we’re dealing with deputy ministers and high-level bureaucrats. What steps has the Premier taken since we’ve raised these issues and the obvious concern of both the Members of the House and the public? What steps has the Premier taken to tighten up and review, perhaps review and tighten up, the contracting procedures? Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Premier

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have had no one from the public contact me or my office specifically; the issue has come from the Assembly here. We continue to use the policies that are in place. Any change in policy, we have a process where we go back to Members of the Assembly. If there’s a request by committee to look at that, we’ll take a look at that, as I responded earlier in an earlier question. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Bob Bromley

Bob Bromley Weledeh

I would say the request has been quite plain and already on the Premier’s plate for some time now, probably through committee too. So I’d like specifics. That there is no concern out there is clearly not correct, if the Premier reads the newspaper and so on. I’m hoping he will tell us what he plans to do, if he actually has not done anything yet, to review and tighten up this process for sole-source contracting.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

We could create policy on the fly here if that’s what Members like. There’s a process for dealing with policy and there’s also the Financial Administration Act that’s in place that stipulated levels of authority for contracting. There’s a Financial Administration Manual that is a part of the process. That work is actually ongoing from the Department of Finance looking at the Financial Administration Act and the FAM, as we call it, or Financial Administration Manual. That’s being looked at overall in the government how we contract. For the actual policies themselves, there are issues and questions that have been raised by Members but I can’t recall and I’d have to go back to the paperwork to see if there’s an actual letter saying a requested revision of those policies. But right now, the Financial Administration Act itself is undergoing work, as along with that is the Financial Administration Manual.

Bob Bromley

Bob Bromley Weledeh

I appreciate the comments from the Premier there. What would the Premier say is the best process for Members to take here to get that review and revision happening, recognizing that of course there is a Financial Administration Act and a process described, but then there’s the actual implementation of it in a way that does not favour those with previous relationships with the government or whatever.

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

Let’s be clear that again, with a Territory our size and the delivery of

programs as complex as they are, we go out there at times for public tender, RFPs, RFQs, sole-sourced contracts as is the example being used today. We try to deliver the programs and services that we’re expected to deliver. It is a challenging environment. We go through a number of phases and processes of ensuring that we can get the work done and even though people who have worked for the Government of the Northwest Territories in the past, they still need to earn a living if they are to remain in the Northwest Territories. So whether it’s with our government or an aboriginal government, we should recognize that. When it comes to the actual process to use and where we go, well, everything that we do as a government will flow out of the Financial Administration Act. So that would be the first big ticket item that we would look at and how we work and how we let contracts. From there our policies are formed. So I would say that avenue of the Financial Administration Act, then the manual, and then our policies. When it comes to the interpretation of those, well, that’s a day-by-day task and as Members are holding us to account on that even in today’s session.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Final supplementary, Mr. Bromley.

Bob Bromley

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Obviously the proof is in the pudding. The public is very upset about the sole-sourced contracting that’s going on. There are generally many examples, and we’ve brought them to the Premier before and we’ll bring them to him again, of work that could be done by many that’s sole sourced. Last session, I believe, I raised a number of specific issues. For example, letting go identical contracts for the exact same work and the exact same time frame and letting them out on sole-sourced basis. What’s more specific than that? I’d like to ask, will the Premier be doing some sort of assessment to see what the additional cost of all this sole sourcing is and likely lower quality work than if it had been put out on a competitive basis?

Floyd Roland

Floyd Roland Inuvik Boot Lake

I know the Member is very adept at looking at how we do things as a government and his professional expertise in areas, but he seems to cover quite an area from climate change expertise right down to now contracting, and if in fact the work that we get is quality work or not. We can debate that quality here and we do that. The issues of the work we do as a government, the nature of that work that needs to get done and the timing of that all comes into place when we make decisions. In fact, again, the Member says that the public is outraged at this or very concerned about that. Between an editorial and a number of questions in here, that’s one thing we need to deal with. Yes, we do look into those and provide information on that. But let’s be clear that at times the best experts are the ones who have experience in how we deliver programs and

services. At times the best expertise would be those where the Minister or department feel confident in the work that needs to be done and the speed it needs to be done so we can get things happening with ourselves, with the federal government, with aboriginal governments and so on. So there are times when we do use that process of sole-source contracting.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Roland. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.

Robert Hawkins

Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. From time to time this particular issue comes up and it’s a question about third-party insurance providers. The question really comes up in the context of whether or not the GNWT accesses that opportunity to help stave off some of the costs that are incurred at Stanton Hospital. Where this specifically arises is if somebody arrives at Stanton and one of the questions quite often asked was, were you hurt at work. So in other words, WCB starts to pick up some of these costs. Of course, then it doesn’t fall on the typical shoulders of our public purse because we have a WCB process that will help with those charges.

I’d like to ask the Minister of Health and Social Services what other third-party costs we reach out to help cover some of our costs of health care.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Minister responsible for Health and Social Services, Ms. Lee.

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think third-party insurance is something that we will be discussing more and more over the next number of weeks as we do public discussion on the supplementary health benefits. We have done a user profile analysis and we have learned that third-party insurance, when we are talking about third-party insurance we’re not talking about the insurance program that government could enter into but third-party insurance that every individual has access to. Third-party insurance could be WCB, but it could also be employer insurance. If you work for the government or major companies, many of the employers offer insurance as part of their package. There are some private businesses and individuals who choose to take third-party insurance for whatever reason. The information we’ve learned from our research in this area, is that for the NWT residents there are only about 40 percent of people who take advantage of third-party insurance or have third-party insurance, whereas in other provinces we think that it would be up to 70 percent or 80 percent of people at least who would have access or choose to take that, because they would

need to do that because the government programs are not as generous.

Robert Hawkins

Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre

I appreciate the answer from the Minister. When I say this it is not directed at the Minister, it’s the problem. I want to say this can’t be actually taken lightly. People have to be well aware that we could actually be saving a lot of money out of the public purse if we considered this opportunity and in many cases a reality. Is there a policy within the Department of Health and Social Services that when somebody arrives at Stanton or any other health centres, one of the first questions in their information forms that they fill out is do you have third-party insurance that could cover these costs that work with the public health process that we would normally pick up? In essence, I want to ask if we’re asking the people who show up if they have third-party insurance.

Sandy Lee

Sandy Lee Range Lake

I think the Member may be moving ahead of himself there. I guess we could always ask the individuals, but I think we should also recognize that it’s not entirely the individual’s fault in the way we have such a low rate of people having third-party insurance. We have a system where the government pays for core health care services, which is the case all across Canada and we’re not going to change that. But we have historically covered for all of the extended health benefits that an insurance company would do in southern jurisdictions. So there have been no incentives for residents to seek third-party insurance. It’s a shame, really, because those options are available and if the people needed to do it, I’m sure they would look into it more. But we have just built in this incentive and we need to have that conversation with the public.

Robert Hawkins

Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre

Actually, I’ve been trying to whittle down to the exact area I’m getting to and I think we’ve now reached the point. I definitely believe heart of hearts that the public system is truly the backstop of what needs to be out there, and by no means am I suggesting that the public system should erode. What I’ve really been trying to whittle down to is this particular point: if somebody arrives at Stanton today and is in a car accident, we don’t ask them if they have third-party insurance. Yet everybody driving a car, in that car, legally, of course, is supposed to have insurance. So in other words, those insurance companies are getting off the hook because the public system is so gracious to cover their costs. But every year people’s insurance goes up and up and up on costs. So my problem really comes down to this: why does our territorial health policy not take into consideration these types of problems of saying, well, wait a minute, you’re legally mandated to have third-party insurance in this particular case such as auto insurance. Why don’t we tap into that first, because they’re already paying for it?