This is page numbers 3945 - 3980 of the Hansard for the 16th Assembly, 4th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was work.

Topics

Jackson Lafferty

Jackson Lafferty Minister of Justice

Mr. Speaker, we can certainly provide the information that we do have on hand about our research that we have done and our consultation with various provincial jurisdictions and working with the Executive branch. We can certainly provide that information, Mr. Speaker. As we move forward, if this is an area that we need to look at, then we can certainly discuss with the Member and also the standing committee. If we need to move forward with costs, there will be a cost factor. So that needs to be taken into consideration as well. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are for the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources. It is on the issue of the caribou. Mr. Speaker, this issue of conservation and use of the caribou as a resource in our Territory is a very complex issue. Mr. Speaker, we heard complaints about the consultation that took place between our government as a public government and the leaders of the aboriginal governments and the people who are affected by the harvest of this resource.

Mr. Speaker, consultation speaks to me about an exchange of ideas, information. It speaks to me of a dialogue, not a one-way kind of communication or conveying of information. I have been, as a committee member, the recipient of the very scientific technical information regarding the caribou. It is interesting, but I would like to ask the Minister, we as a public government, can he update us on what proactive measures that we have taken as a government to have meaningful dialogue consultation with the other stakeholders who are responsible for this resource as well? Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Mr. Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have, as recently as two nights ago, met with the Yellowknives council over in Dettah. We have had conversations and discussions with Chief Sangris in the interim as well. I have met yesterday with the acting grand chief for the Tlicho about the ban and the other processes that we have underway and the need, of course, to protect the caribou. We recognize that there are some unresolved issues with the Yellowknives. We have discussions underway with them that we are hoping will bear some fruit here in the next day or so. Thank you.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Mr. Speaker, a few days ago I asked several questions to the Minister on this same topic. I would like the Minister if he could, from his perception, characterize the degree of progress that we have made in dialoguing with our partners on this subject. Thank you.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, we have continued support from the Tlicho Government and the Northwest Territories Metis. The North Slave Metis Alliance has indicated their concern about the herd. The Yellowknives have very strong concerns about the fate of the caribou

as well. We have had discussions. We are continuing to have, I think, productive discussions. There are some issues on the table for consideration. I am hoping that since we both want to do, in the long run, the right thing by the caribou, we will be able to come to a meeting of the minds here in the not-too-distant future. Thank you.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Mr. Speaker, what the Minister has outlined does seem like a fairly substantial body of work that is being undertaken. Does the Minister, from that consultation, have any options or next steps, ideas going forward and even as an interim measure that could alleviate the concerns about the treaty rights for harvesting the caribou? Thank you.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, what is currently being discussed are specific proposals, suggestions, options in terms of moving forward to deal with the issue of the right to harvest, keeping in mind the broader and fundamental need to protect the herd over the course of this hunting season so that we can engage, through the Wekeezhii process and further consultation with the Yellowknives, the Tlicho, the Northwest Territories Metis, about a longer term harvest management plan for the Bathurst or the Ahiak or the Bluenose-East which is going to be, as I indicated, a very complex undertaking. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Your final supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Jane Groenewegen

Jane Groenewegen Hay River South

Mr. Speaker, just to be absolutely clear so that everyone understands then, the Minister, as our point person, as our leader on this file, is telling us here today in the House and to the public that there are things that could be done to accommodate the rights of people to harvest while at the same time protecting this resource. There is flexibility in terms of our government’s mandate and ability to set rules, that there is flexibility through these negotiations and consultations. Thank you.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, I have been so preoccupied with caribou that I forgot to recognize my own mayor sitting in the gallery and her son. I have to keep in mind not to miss some other things as well. Yes, I believe that we, because of the continued goodwill between all the parties and the recognition that we want to resolve this, have an opportunity to sort out the immediate issues surrounding the ban as well as engaging the much broader longer term, more important process that is going to flow out of the Wekeezhii process. It will eventually result in a caribou management plan that will include the Bathurst. We will have to speak to what will happen with the Ahiak as well as the Bluenose-East. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Before we go any further, I would like to draw your attention to the public gallery and the presence of a

former Member of this House. Mr. Leon Lafferty is with us.

The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again I would like to raise the issue I raised yesterday in regards to the ministerial authority to take the action that he did and exactly where did that authority come from. We have the NWT Wildlife Act. We have the NWT Act. We have treaties. We have land claim agreements. We also have Section 35 in the Canadian Constitution that recognizes an inherence to aboriginal rights in Canada in regards to treaty rights and the rights of First Nations people. I would like to ask the question, under what authority did the Minister make the decision to move forward and the decision to impose this restriction?

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Mr. Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member has basically listed the enabling legislation and subsequent authorities that we have used. The Northwest Territories Act, of course, is what gives us the ability to sit here in this forum to do the work of the people of the Northwest Territories. We have worked, and are working long and hard, to take over the decisions collectively as Northerners for the land and resources. Wildlife is one of the jurisdictions that we have authority over, as Minister Strahl confirmed when he was here last week. So the Northwest Territories Act and the Wildlife Act. Thank you.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Thank you. My understanding is that I tabled a document yesterday where I believe there was an Order-in-Council passed in 1960, which basically allowed certain restrictions on certain species in regard to barren-ground caribou, muskox, polar bear and the Wood Buffalo. Is that the authority you’re talking about when you talk about the NWT Act, the Order-in-Council that was passed in 1960, is that where you got the authority from?

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you. Clearly that document from 1960 that lists the barren land caribou and muskox, polar bear and bison, is one of the documents that enable us to do the work that we are doing. Thank you.

David Krutko

David Krutko Mackenzie Delta

Aboriginal people have come a long ways since 1960. In 1960 they weren’t even able to vote.

Since then, Mr. Speaker, the aboriginal people in the Northwest Territories and Canada have progressed to a point where we’re finally recognized in the Canadian Constitution under

Section 35, which recognized the right as aboriginal people and acknowledges their treaties, Treaty 8 and Treaty 11 in the Northwest Territories, and also upholds the land claim agreements that we negotiated. I believe by not finding the legal opinion on what grounds you made that decision on and not falling back on Section 35 and those land claim agreements, I believe you have not done due diligence by allowing due process in ensuring that you made the decision, you made the right decision and you allowed for due process to take place by consulting all affected parties in this matter. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. I didn’t hear a question there. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.

Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I want to follow up on Mr. Krutko’s line of questioning. I did raise it yesterday with the Minister of ENR, Mr. Speaker. I know that aboriginal people come from a proud history. We tell our youth we as aboriginal people, have a special right, an inherent right in our treaties and one of them is to hunt and fish and trap as long as the sun shines, the river flows and the grass is green. We can hunt to feed our people. However, the Minister of ENR implemented a no-hunt zone, Mr. Speaker. No one disputes conservation or preservation, but what we’re talking about today is restricting the right of aboriginal people to hunt, fish and trap, most particularly hunt in this no-hunt zone.

I’d like to ask the Minister again, under our NWT Act, 18(3), it says that nothing shall be construed as authorizing the Executive Council to make ordinances restricting or prohibiting Indians and Inuit from hunting for food on unoccupied lands. However, there is a stipulation about a herd being extinct and I’d like to ask the Minister what document, what research, what definition is he using for a herd being extinct, Mr. Speaker? Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Paul Delorey

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. The honourable Minister responsible for Environment and Natural Resources, Mr. Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think we should also talk about the caribou and the trouble that they’re in and the fact that the herd numbers have gone from 120,000 to 30,000 and that we have to take some action in the short term to make sure that the herd is protected, recognizing that we have to work to accommodate their aboriginal right to harvest, which we want to do and we have done with the Tlicho and we’re working on it with the Yellowknives. We have the authorities under the Northwest Territories Act, any Orders-in-Council subsequent to that, as well as

our own Wildlife Act, which is, as we speak, being redone. Thank you.

Kevin A. Menicoche

Kevin A. Menicoche Nahendeh

Thank you very much. Canadian case law is full of examples where jurisdictions tried to prevent aboriginal people from hunting and fishing and they’ve always lost in court. Once again, the Minister is challenging our inherent right to hunt and fish. We’re going to go to court, we’re going to win, but I’d like to ask the Minister right now, we’re not talking about lifting the ban, but we’re talking about allowing our aboriginal people to hunt as they always have for hundreds of thousands of years. So will the Minister consider that seriously and immediately? Thank you.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you. We are not talking about restricting or removing any rights, we are talking about conservation, we’re talking about an accommodation with the aboriginal governments to ensure that their people have access to subsistence harvest. There is agreement by the Tlicho, support by the Tlicho, support by the Metis Nation. We are working on a resolution with the Yellowknives. We are interested in resolving this. The Members in this House now have become legal scholars, well scripted with legal questions from vast talk and smooth-talking lawyers and that’s not our job. If there’s a question about our authority, we can have that discussion. We can fill the room with lawyers and technical staff and we can have the debate about are we a duly constituted government, do we have that authority. I suggest to you that clearly we do. Every land claim that has been signed recognizes the need for conservation and the role of the government to be able to step in, and even in unsettled claims areas, 35-1, as well gives us a process to be able to do that carefully, but we are dully constituted to do that. We’re going to do that very carefully and we want to resolve the outstanding issues with the Yellowknives.