This is page numbers 87 - 122 of the Hansard for the 17th Assembly, 1st Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was need.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Robert Hawkins

Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre

We are talking about investment in capital for further growth and we have to ask ourselves at the same time, is this good management of money. Ultimately it comes back to the question of good fiscal responsibility would look at this and ask these types of questions and allow the political types of decisions left up to the politicians. That said, it ties it all together. Then we make the decision on policy because we believe in them. Under fiscal and responsible point of view, what is to stop the Minister for asking the cost of these? If you want to invest in capital facilities, we need to understand how it benefits us over the longer haul. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

It would be very difficult for us to determine what the per day cost to different jurisdictions are with respect to their facilities, but it still comes down to the bottom line: Will we be able to ensure that our residents have northern specific programming that we, as territorial politicians, have indicated in the past that we want?

In every jurisdiction the cost is different per facility. We know that. We also know what our costs are and we are planning based on future needs, what we know or what we predict will be the number of

inmates coming down the pipes in the future, including with things like Bill C-10.

Right now we don’t actually have any facilities in front of us and we are continuing to plan and making decisions based on what we believe is going to happen in the future with respect to our actual corrections facilities.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Robert Hawkins

Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre

For us to support further investment in capital initiatives, we should have a context as to what the true costs are. That is why I keep coming back to it. We have to evaluate a longer term strategy with the focus on where our money is better spent.

Again, we have alternative measures that have always been called upon. Maybe they need more support, more bolstering. What money is being kept away from alternative options because maybe money isn’t being spent efficiently?

That goes back to the point of using a cost-benefit analysis. I didn’t ask to do an evaluation of other jurisdictions. I am not sure where that came up from. I suggested that, if it made sense, other jurisdictions can take inmates at a certain cost. The point being is that we should know what it costs us. That is the day-to-day business. When someone comes with a capital request, we should also have an assessment as to what it costs. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

It appears to be a bit of a contradiction. I’m not sure if I fully understand. If the Member wants us to do a cost-benefit analysis, we are going to have to know the costs that exist in the southern jurisdictions. That was where that comment came from.

When we are planning our facilities, we have to go through a number of processes to determine the costs. To do those analyses, we also have to identify what all the costs in the facility will be, including the human resources and all the other costs that are going to come down the pipes. That needs to be part of our planning process. This department, as all the other departments, do that.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Wendy Bisaro

Thank you, Minister Abernethy. I would like to remind Members that we are discussing the 2012-13 Capital Estimates. I have been granting quite a bit of licence here, but we are trying to talk about the capital estimates. Mr. Bromley.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Bob Bromley

Bob Bromley Weledeh

Thank you, Madam Chair. The Minister mentioned Bill C-10. I want to just follow up very quickly, because, obviously, according to the discussion earlier in the House today – and I know the Minister is well aware and working on this – there are costs associated with this legislation. Just for efficiency, I will ask two questions right away here. Is there any work that the Minister has done on costing of likely new infrastructure needs resulting from the impacts of Bill C-10 that he can report on today? When might be the earliest point

when we would expect such needs to materialize as a result of Bill C-10? Mahsi.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Wendy Bisaro

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Abernethy.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

When I became the Minister of Justice I asked the department to do a bit of an analysis and start an analysis on what we think the implications of Bill C-10 will be, and some of those implications could conceivably be increased capacity requirements in our different facilities, a new pod possibly, the adult facility here in Yellowknife, but also the facility in Fort Smith which is already designed to be a little bit larger than the facility that is there now, as well as the old female facility in Inuvik.

As far as the costs of the facilities, Mr. Bromley, anything we toss out now will be kind of a real shot in the dark. We have some Class C estimates on the Fort Smith facility which is around $35 million. The cost to expand the North Slave Correctional Facility – and I would be happy to take you out there if you haven’t already had a tour – there is actually an area on the North Slave Correctional Facility where we can add a pod. It was always designed with the ability to add a pod, should the capacity requirements ever increase at the North Slave Correctional Facility. Those plans are in the pipe. We know what we have to do to increase that, but I can’t tell you what the cost of adding that pod would be right now.

The department is doing some analysis as part of their analysis of the impacts of Bill C-10 which will hopefully have some of that information, but we haven’t been able to absolutely quantify that yet. But we know the Class C estimate for the facility in Fort Smith is around $35 million.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Bob Bromley

Bob Bromley Weledeh

The second question was: When might be the earliest point where we would expect the need for such structures resulting from the impacts of Bill C-10 to materialize? That is obviously important for the planning side of the equation. I appreciate any response the Minister might be able to provide. Thank you.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

This is actually one of the areas that we have been struggling with, is trying to figure out actually when we are going to start feeling the impacts of Bill C-10. I am not 100 percent sure, but we understand that parts of Bill C-10 could be implemented as early as six months from now, half a year. It is hard to say, but we are attempting to quantify it. As we get more information and we feel closer to that, I am happy to share that with committee, absolutely.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Wendy Bisaro

Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Are you done, Mr. Bromley? Mr. Moses.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Alfred Moses

Alfred Moses Inuvik Boot Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. I had one quick question. When it comes to building capital projects such as infrastructure like the jails that

we’re going to house people in, do you ever do any consulting with other departments, such as the Department of Health, to work on treatment centres, as well, or transition phase components to that building, rather than work on putting two infrastructures in a community? It would be better money and cost effective to have the same water and sewage system put into one building where on one side would be a transition back into society or partly working with a treatment centre. So when buildings like this go up, we can actually add on to infrastructure and cut down on costs for other capital projects in years to come. Does the Department of Justice, when they do look at buildings like this, consult with other departments on how they can better serve people of the North than the spending of dollars that this government does?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Wendy Bisaro

Thank you, Mr. Moses. Mr. Abernethy.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Glen Abernethy

Glen Abernethy Great Slave

Thank you, Madam Chair. I’m not aware of whether or not the department has had many consultations with the Department of Health or any other buildings on how we can achieve economies of scale in our construction. We do know that we have specialized buildings, just like Health has very specialized buildings. As far as utilities, there may be options to do something like that and that might be a better question for Public Works and Services.

With respect to the building in Fort Smith, we are trying to achieve some economies of scale by tying into some of the heating and utilities systems that exist in the facility that is going to stay in Fort Smith. There are going to be two facilities in Fort Smith, a male facility and a female facility. We’re looking at finding ways to utilize some of the mechanical systems to reduce our costs, reduce our footprint when we actually get around to constructing the facility in Fort Smith.

With respect to the conversation about the economies of scale between the departments, I’m happy to talk to my colleague, the Minister responsible for Public Works and Services, to see what kind of opportunities exist in the future, absolutely.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

December 8th, 2011

Alfred Moses

Alfred Moses Inuvik Boot Lake

No further questions. I just think it would be in the best interest of both departments to work together on how we can serve, especially with a lot of the discussions earlier today on mental health and addictions, how we incarcerate a lot of people into the systems. That when we do build facilities, we offer buildings that offer services that would cut down our costs that can go into other areas. Just a general comment.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Wendy Bisaro

Thank you, Mr. Moses. Are we done with general comments as opposed to general questions? We can move on to detail?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Wendy Bisaro

Okay. We will start with page 7-4, Justice, activity summary, services to government, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summery, zero. Does committee agree?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Wendy Bisaro

Page 7-6, Justice, activity summary, legal aid services, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, zero. Does committee agree?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Wendy Bisaro

Page 7-8, Justice, activity summary, court services, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $338,000. Are we agreed?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

The Chair

The Chair Wendy Bisaro

Page 7-11, Justice, activity summary, community justice and corrections, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $364,000. Are we agreed?

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.