This is page numbers 3557 – 3584 of the Hansard for the 17th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was fund.

Topics

Daryl Dolynny

Daryl Dolynny Range Lake

I guess we’re hearing from the Minister that this was an internal policy, possibly vetted with some people with criterion in financial management, but we’re not quite certain.

So, I guess, when was the last time this policy was thoroughly reviewed to address the growing debt load that we’re about to incur and with such negative revenue growth?

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

The issue of the debt to revenue number, for example, 5 percent, a maximum 5 percent can go to interest payments out of revenue. It’s not 1 percent; it’s 5 percent, so the Member’s statement earlier in the day was wrong, just for a point of clarification. But that number, we looked across the fiscal landscape across the country and it’s something that is manageable, and at the 5 percent of revenue, yes, we could manage the additional cost should we get a borrowing limit of a billion dollar bump-up and should we decide to invest that money, and yes, that money would be targeted to economic

infrastructure and we’d have to look at the full financial impact.

Daryl Dolynny

Daryl Dolynny Range Lake

It’s clear that this policy has not been reviewed because the Minister failed to answer the question. In my Member’s statement today I had indicated 1 percent, and that is what is being quoted right from the Minister’s own words here.

Communication of government policies is a vital step in transparency, and if I pulled the information off this pamphlet, it says for a full text of the new Fiscal Responsibility Policy, go to www.gov.nt.ca/fmbs/documents/famweb. Well, when you go to this website it says, “Page cannot be found.” Can the Minister explain this? Thank you.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, the number is 5 percent not 1 percent, so the Member is incorrect. I will personally ensure that a copy of that policy is on the Member’s desk before the end of the day. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Jackie Jacobson

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Dolynny.

Daryl Dolynny

Daryl Dolynny Range Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m hoping that maybe we can have this policy for everyone to see.

Accountability is the cornerstone of transparency, and according to what this little pamphlet says on the Fiscal Responsibility Policy, government accountability for this policy is to be presented annually by the Minister of Finance in a report on the debt management results and performance criteria when the public accounts are presented.

Can the Minister indicate why we did not receive this report for the public accounts ending March 31, 2013? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, we are constantly held to that account, and to my understanding, it is embedded in part of that documented process. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Jackie Jacobson

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Member for Frame Lake, Ms. Bisaro.

Wendy Bisaro

Wendy Bisaro Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask some questions to the Minister of Finance. I want to follow up on my statement and also follow up from my colleagues’ questions earlier.

I would like to say that I appreciate the government’s willingness to do the right thing and put 25 percent of our new resource revenues into the Heritage Fund, but I am unable to reconcile the Minister’s words with the numbers that are in our

budget. As I stated in my statement, the request was to put that money in -14-15, not in ‘15-16.

Mr. Bromley has asked this already, but I don’t believe I heard an answer, so I have to ask it again. The Minister states that we’re going to put 25 percent of resource revenues into the budget because that’s when the money is coming in, in ‘15-16, but the revenues are from the ‘14-15 year. Yes, we get them in our hand in 2015 or 2016, but the money is coming in and it should be allocated to ‘14-15 and it shows that in the budget, the $120 million.

I would like to know from the Minister why we record the revenues in ‘14-15 and yet we don’t record the expense in ‘14-15. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Jackie Jacobson

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Minister of Finance, Mr. Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. None of that money is going to be available to flow until late 2015, so as I have indicated, we are going to honour our commitment to 25 percent and put it into the ‘15-16 budget. Yes, the deal starts on April 1st , but we’re going to wait

until we get the money so we’re not going to be borrowing money at a high interest rate to put it into a fund where we’re not even sure what the number is. The money will go in in ‘15-16 as we have indicated. Thank you.

Wendy Bisaro

Wendy Bisaro Frame Lake

It gets more confusing every time the Minister answers a question, I think.

The Minister says that the money will not flow until ‘15, late ‘15 or early ‘16. I understand that, but if that’s the case, then the money is not flowing in until that same time, yet we are recording money flowing in in ‘14-15, so why are we not recording the money flowing out in ‘14-15? I’m not talking about the actual cash transaction; I am talking about the records on the books. We’re not going to get the cash until ‘15-16, so why are we recording it in ‘14-15? Thank you.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, we are booking a whole number of dollar figures. We are booking all the money we’re getting for our A-base transfer, for all the positions, all the programs. We are booking the notional amount of $120 million as projected revenue, and once we get the money, then we’ll talk about the expenditures which we have committed to, one of them being the Heritage Fund, the 25 percent. Thank you.

Wendy Bisaro

Wendy Bisaro Frame Lake

Mr. Speaker, it just does not compute for me. We are comparing apples and oranges and I cannot understand how it’s okay for us to record the revenues… It’s an accounting entry, I think the Minister said. So we are recording an accounting entry and it’s okay for revenues but we won’t do an accounting entry for expenses. So on the one hand we’re taking advantage and on the other hand the government is also taking

advantage and saying we’re not going to do it in ‘14-15, we’ll do it in ‘15-16.

I’d like to ask the Minister if he can tell me, since 5 percent is presumably what the budget was presumably based on, where does that show up in the ‘14-15 budget? Thank you.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

It doesn’t.

The Speaker

The Speaker Jackie Jacobson

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Final, short supplementary, Ms. Bisaro.

Wendy Bisaro

Wendy Bisaro Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That confirms what I had believed, that yes, it’s not in there.

The Minister, in his budget address, talked about 5 percent. Today was the first day that I heard that he was talking about 5 percent in ‘15-16. In all our discussions previous to this, I have never been advised that this 5 percent was not intended for the ‘14-15 budget.

I don’t have a question here, but I am quite dismayed that we’ve been led down a garden path and the only amount that’s going into the Heritage Fund for this ‘14-15 year is $250,000. Thank you.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Mr. Speaker, nobody has been led down the garden path. What we’ve had here in this House over the last few days is a very fundamental debate about what amount of money is going to be put into the Heritage Fund on a go-forward basis that will eventually be put into legislation. There was a critical first step and that’s what we’ve had.

We had listed in our budget address, in the budget, 5 percent, and if the House would have just concurred with that, 5 percent would be what would be driving us, as a government, on a go-forward basis in the Legislative Assembly. Now we have clarified that very fundamental point. That’s why it was listed there, so we could make sure it was clear in writing and resolved. Now it has been resolved and it’s 25 percent. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Jackie Jacobson

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.

Robert Hawkins

Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would like to continue asking questions regarding the vacant positions with the Minister of Human Resources.

The Minister should know I’m not asking him to account for whether it’s the Department of Justice or Education or Finance or those things. I’m asking him from his policy position as Minister and steward of Human Resources.

The Minister just confirmed that some positions have been deliberately left vacant and I’ve been told by some people in the bureaucracy, even as of

today, that some positions’ money is being left vacant, and that money is being left vacant for various reasons obviously, but it’s often used for other departmental purposes.

Why is this a contradiction when you can’t use doctor money that you can’t hire doctors for and you can’t use that to hire nurse practitioners, but it’s okay for department officials to turn around and not staff positions, in some cases deliberately, and use that money for other projects? Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Jackie Jacobson

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister of Human Resources, Mr. Beaulieu.

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I indicated earlier, the management of the human resources and the budgeting of human resources is a responsibility of the departments. The departments need to use that money for various reasons, and one real obvious reason is when you do have vacant positions and you are in the process of filling the vacant positions, it is a complete process. When you have that many vacant positions, you can’t possibly advertise them all at once. So, they have these vacant positions and they are forced into paying overtime because there is no overtime allocated within the framework that we provide to the departments by the position.

Overtime is one big one and then, of course, just to try to meet the priorities of the department, which are priorities of the House, they would sometimes need to hire another position that’s not of the ones that are vacant but a position such as a casual to fulfil a job and so on. So, there are various reasons as to why this money is with the departments, and the departments are managing on the ground how to expend the money that’s associated with the positions.

Robert Hawkins

Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre

Mr. Speaker, the Minister just said something really interesting, which is the departments can’t advertise all the positions all at once. That’s an interesting situation, because if you go to the career website, there’s barely 100 jobs there and the Minister just earlier said there is at least 1,150 jobs considered as a snapshot of vacancies. So there’s a variance of at least 1,000 jobs and we know that they are actively pursuing, although we can’t find it anywhere, 571 jobs.

So when I asked the question to the Minister – and I will ask it again – do we continue to fund these positions that nobody is in, his answer is maybe.

Can the Minister officially clear it up on the record that when a person transfers on a transfer assignment, we’ll say from the Department of Justice over to the Department of Education that even though he’s now paid by the Department of Education, the Department of Justice continues to fund that position at its home office? So in other words, that money is sitting there. Will he clear it up and tell me where that money goes? Thank you.

Tom Beaulieu

Tom Beaulieu Tu Nedhe

An individual that goes on assignment would still have the home position held for them. However, they do need to do that job that he or she was doing in the home department. So, on a transfer assignment they will backfill that position. That position stays vacant and they will backfill the position with most likely a casual or a term position until that person returns to the job. So the position is vacant. The money is used to continue to do the job that the position would do back at their home department.

Robert Hawkins

Robert Hawkins Yellowknife Centre

Most likely, maybe, who knows, we’re not sure and when would it happen.

Can the Minister say for certain that all that money left over in the home department is actually being used for human resources, or is the best guess today a maybe? Thank you.