This is page numbers 6659 - 6698 of the Hansard for the 17th Assembly, 5th Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was disabilities.

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Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters
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Daryl Dolynny

Daryl Dolynny Range Lake

Does the landlord receive an accounting of the money being spent in terms of, again, back to the proof of performance? Do we supply receipts as to contractor payments or of that nature? By which way does the contractor provide that information either through us, who is possibly doing our work for us, back to the landlord to make sure that we actually are following through to the T and I that we have in relationship to this agreement.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

T and I. Interesting. Mr. Aumond.

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Aumond

Thank you, Madam Chair. There would be a scope of work agreed to with the landlord and particularly if there is a third party who is undertaking the tenant improvements, but in this case I think the landlord will be managing them themselves, and there would be a costing that would be associated with that that both the landlord and, in this case, Public Works and Services would have to sign off on for the value of the work, and that would be the proof and the verification that the money was being used for its intended purpose.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Public Works and Services, asset management, not previously authorized, $1.5 million. Total department, not previously authorized, $1.5 million. Agreed?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Does the committee agree that we have concluded consideration of Tabled Document 325-17(5)?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

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The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Ms. Bisaro.

Wendy Bisaro

Wendy Bisaro Frame Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. I move that consideration of Tabled Document 325-17(5), Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 3, 2015-2016, be now concluded and that Tabled Document 325-17(5) be reported and recommended as ready for further consideration in formal session through the form of an appropriation bill.

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Some Hon. Members

Question.

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Question is being called. The motion is carried.

---Carried

I would like to thank the Minister and his officials. I'll turn the floor over, then, to Minister Miltenberger for his opening comments on our next bill, please.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

I am here to present Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2015-2016. This document proposes an increase of $50.7 million in operations expenditures for the 2015-2016 fiscal year.

The more significant items are:

1. a total of $24.5 million for the Department of Environment and Natural Resources for the increased costs incurred during the 2015-2016 fire season. Twenty point nine million dollars of this amount was approved by a special warrant in June 2015 and is now being included in the supplementary request.

2. $22.1 million for the Department of Finance to contribute funding to the NWT Power Corporation to mitigate the impact of extreme low water conditions in the Snare Hydro system against NWT residents' power costs.

I think Members will agree that this level of investment is not sustainable over the long run and that government needs to start taking steps to reducing power costs for governments, businesses and residents.

The GNWT has already made significant efforts and investments to reduce internal power consumption. However, more needs to be done to encourage our residents and businesses to do the same.

The most immediate way of doing this is to provide additional funding to programs currently being delivered through the Arctic Energy Alliance, or AEA, and to accelerate NTPC's LED Streetlight Replacement Program.

If Members agree, 10 percent, or $2.2 million, of this funding will be committed: $1.8 million to AEA and $400,000 to NTPC programming for 2015-2016 to enhance energy conservation in the NWT.

3. $1 million in incremental costs associated with the current year operations of the new Hay River Regional Health Centre.

I am prepared to review the details of the supplementary estimates document.

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. I'll ask the Members now for any general comments.

Some Hon. Members

Detail.

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Detail? Okay. If I could get your attention, please, to page 4 of the document. Education, Culture and Employment, labour development and standards, not previously authorized, $1.250 million. Total department, not previously authorized, $1.250 million.

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you. Environment and Natural Resources, forest management, special warrants, $20.908 million, not previously authorized, $3.635 million. Water resources, not previously authorized, $255,000. Total department, special warrants, $20.908 million, and not previously authorized, $3.890 million. Mr. Dolynny.

Daryl Dolynny

Daryl Dolynny Range Lake

Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, I'd like to welcome the department here today. I guess, first and foremost, I want to extend my congratulations to the fire suppression teams that work with us, that work alongside us through our MARS agreements for doing an outstanding job this fire season. In the wake of what we're continuously hearing as some of the heaviest drought years that this territory has seen for many years, decades, I'm very pleased that there was no loss of life and that there was very little loss in terms of buildings and dwellings.

The reason why I'm leading into that is I want to make it perfectly clear that any comments we have with respect to any money spent in this area isn't a reflection of the people working for us or working under us. That is distant to the question at hand. The question before us is the amount of money spent in order to provide these services to protect the public and the Northwest Territories as a whole.

We know that special warrants fall under a certain category in terms of being spent, and with it should come the explanation in due course or to follow with respect to how those monies were spent. Point in question, last year when we spent well over $55 million in fire suppression as a special warrant, and we waited, as a committee and as Members, very diligently to find out what exactly was the breakdown of that over $55 million. We all waited very patiently for five or six months, only to see a fire suppression support that really talked at a very high level in terms of a bureaucratic level for policy change and performance change and the fact that we needed maybe better equipment and more sophistication to deal with the science of fire. But that report only broke down three significant numbers to literally entail the spending of an amount far greater than we would provide detail for other appropriations that this committee has reviewed.

So, many of us, including myself, were very disheartened that very little emphasis was given on writing backup as to what we actually spent our money on. It was taken by default. It was a “trust us, don't worry.” It's a $55 million trust us program. We can't continue to go along this same course of action as Members of this House. We have a responsibility and a due diligence to protect the public purse and it provides a level of transparency and accountability that every one of us here has taken oath to four years ago.

That being said, I'm still a bit perplexed that we have a warrant in front of us for a number of dollars with respect to forest management and fire suppression yet very little information with respect to where that money was spent, not how it was spent or any type of breakdown.

I know there was some dialogue going on behind the scenes with the department and myself, as a Member. We had some discussions in the backroom P and P, Priorities and Planning, with respect to how can we better do this. The onus was put on the Members of that committee to come up with a list of areas of opportunity. I find that to be a bit problematic that I, as a Member, or even a committee is expected to come up with the parameters of how the money is spent. This is something that should be provided to us by the purveyors and stewards of the people's spending. So I will throw this back into the department here today in terms of how can they provide, and in what way can they provide, a better and more fulsome approach to breaking down these numbers and providing more of a public discourse in how the money was spent and have a certain standard we can use from year to year so we can completely understand how efficient or inefficient, as it may be, in terms of we are spending hard-earned tax dollars to fight the fires of the Northwest Territories.

Again, to the Minister and to the department: Is there a list of measurables, in terms of accounting measurable, that we can use to clearly articulate the volume of money that we spend? Thank you.

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Minister Miltenberger.

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

Thank you, Madam Chair. We did provide some extra information on a go-forward basis. If the request is a comprehensive, very detailed package that will capture all our costs in terms of material, fire crews, aircraft, we can commit to provide that. We can work through the committee before the next fire season, the format, to make sure it captures the needs of committee in terms of accountability and such. We can build that in so it's not at the level where it is currently. Thank you.

Daryl Dolynny

Daryl Dolynny Range Lake

I appreciate the offer of the Minister, but the Minister clearly is aware. the sands of the hour glass are dissipating quite quickly. What he's asking for in terms of number of days left is not feasible, it's not going to happen in time. This is going to fall on deaf ears once again. It will be picked up by the 18th Assembly, hopefully, and through some stewardship that we are going to become better people at doing this job.

This is not the responsibility of a Member. This is not the responsibility of a committee to ask the government to provide information. It should be provided willingly. This information should be provided in an accounting methodology framework which is subject to the right type of scrutiny for the amount that's being asked on behalf of us to approve.

Again I will turn it back to the Minister: Will he commit his department before the 18th Assembly to provide a complete listing of accounting breakdown for money spent, not only for this past calendar year but go back to last year's $55 million, and provide some level of accounting other than three or four large numbers to make up that which is really, at this stage, close to $80 million of taxpayers' money spent on fire suppression? Yet, I can tell you on one hand, Madam Chair, how many numbers I got to approve that spending.

Will the Minister commit to provide Members of this House and also commit that there is a transition piece for the 18th Legislative Assembly so this question does not need to be asked by future Members of the 18th Assembly?

Michael Miltenberger

Michael Miltenberger Thebacha

As we speak, the folks will be pulling together a package that we will put on the table and provide to committee members. It will be part of the record on a go-forward basis. We will do what we can for last year, but we'll do this year for sure. I will commit to that. We'll make it part of the record that that will be the expectation for all further supplementary or special warrant appropriations. Thank you.

Daryl Dolynny

Daryl Dolynny Range Lake

I appreciate the Minister's offering. I will take it with much enthusiasm. Unfortunately, it may not help us a lot today. It's important, as we said, on a go-forward basis that Members on this side of the House, if we're dealing with any type of appropriation, it doesn't matter the dollar figure and especially when it does matter with specific large numbers, such as we have before us, that Members are well informed to the point that we can make good decisions for the people that we serve. I take this information with respect and I look forward to the expedient performance of the department in following through with what they're offering. Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Chair

The Chair Jane Groenewegen

Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Next on the list I have Ms. Bisaro.