This is page numbers 6125 - 6186 of the Hansard for the 18th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was land.

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Committee Motion 194-18(3): Bill 42: An Act to Amend the Petroleum Products Tax Act - Substitution of Clause 22, Defeated
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 19th, 2019

Page 6163

Robert C. McLeod

Robert C. McLeod Inuvik Twin Lakes

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the time. The Member makes some comments there and some accusations. We have worked with committee. They were aware of the September 1st deadline, and I think the fact that we wanted to get it in writing is because committee had asked us to provide it, and we did.

I'm not going to get into that debate. There are a number of debates that we could get into, but the bottom line is the federal government has informed us, and this had been out there for a while, that September 1st was our deadline. We worked in collaboration with them to go from the original July 1st deadline to September 1st, and they agreed.

The Member talks about the Alberta model. They have been paying carbon tax for a while, and then, when a new government came in, they made some changes. There is no comparison. They are a different kettle, and we are not too concerned about how they go about their business. As long as we go about our business in trying to do what is best for the people of the Northwest Territories. One of those things is taking an approach. This is not the carbon tax bill. The federal government has got the federal carbon tax bill. This is our approach to carbon tax. As one Member pointed out before, our approach is superior to the federal government approach.

If I may, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to use a couple of examples. Mr. and Mrs. Hardworking Constituent, paying a mortgage, paying for their own fuel. Under our backstop, if they bought $1,000 a month worth of fuel, they would be charged carbon tax, but it would be rebated at the point of purchase, so it would only cost them $1,000, as it did before. Under the federal system, the federal approach, they will pay tax on that $1,000 worth of fuel; they may get it back at the end of the year; they may not; they will not know until income tax time. The same with businesses; our heating fuel rebate applies to businesses, who would have to pass that extra cost on to someone. Who will they pass it on to? The consumer in the Northwest Territories.

So our approach, I believe, is the better of the two for the people of the Northwest Territories, and it's something that we need to do. I think Members should take all of that into consideration, and the Member said it himself. Nobody likes a tax, including myself, but we have to try to do what we feel. What we were elected to do is to protect the interests and the well-being of the people of the Northwest Territories. Because a lot of us have lived in small communities, we know the challenges that are there, and sometimes I believe some Members are out of touch with the realities of the high cost of living in many parts of the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Some Hon. Members

Question.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

To the motion, and I have cautioned Members to keep the comments to the motion, which is relating to clause 22 and the amendment to clause 22, which relates to the date the carbon tax would come into effect. Mr. Thompson, to the motion.

Shane Thompson

Shane Thompson Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I was going to support looking at it to move to January 1st. However, we see this in writing, and it says September 1st, and, in my small communities, our elders and our seniors are already seeing an impact on the seniors' heating subsidy program. We have changed it to a monetary value, which reduces the amount of fuel we can put in the community, into their homes. I have residents who presently have to fill half a tank. They cannot even fill the full tank because of the cost of living on this, so I cannot chance what could be to what the reality is. As of September 1st, from my understanding reading this tabled document, September 1st, the federal government is imposing their bill, so it's going to have a huge impact on the residents of the Nahendeh riding, especially the elders. At the end of the day, I cannot support something that is going to have an impact on the elders. If the federal government said, yes, we can go to January 1st, that would be great. It saves us four months of it, but, right now, from what I read here it's September 1st. I really wanted to support the January 1st, but now we have it in writing.

The chair of P&P went and got this from the Minister and put it in front of this, so listening to the debate here, for me, it's about the residents of Nahendeh and the residents of the Northwest Territories and, most importantly, our seniors because our seniors are on fixed income. By at least having the tax rebated back at the pump or the truck that is delivering it to their homes, they are not going to be impacted further. For that reason, I cannot support this part of the motion. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. To the motion that is on the floor. Mr. Nakimayak.

Herbert Nakimayak

Herbert Nakimayak Nunakput

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. This motion looks good on paper, but, you know, given the information that we have here, I am just going to read a sentence here: "failure to complete the process will require us," which is like the feds put in place the federal backstop on September 1st. Mr. Chair, we had discussions about this earlier, and I will not really reiterate too much. As the Member for Nahendeh mentioned, this is about elders and it's about remote communities. I for one come from a remote community, and this is one thing that definitely has an impact, a negative impact, on the cost of harvesting and basically people's livelihoods. If we go with this motion, you know, Mr. Chair, this is something that we do not want to do but this is something that is being imposed, and, at the same time, I look at this and I think it's better the devil you know than the devil you don't. The devil we don't know: if we move this motion to January 1st, it could have some really negative impacts for the territory as a whole, and it would just be nothing good, so, for that reason, Mr. Chair, I do not think I can support this motion with the information we have. Thank you.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. McNeely.

Daniel McNeely

Daniel McNeely Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am still of the opinion of the original motion, in support of the original bill, and this paperwork before us just kind of supports your original judgment. On the email in question on the last sentence, it says, "Our preference remains for the NWT to put in place its system," and the system the government has negotiated in this case, so it has full control over revenues, and, as the Minister mentioned in the past here, ease the impact of the tax on to the residents of the Northwest Territories, and, in doing so, it's better to understand the impacts of the tax. When I first heard about this and coming from an area with no road system other than seasonal and we depend largely on aviation, so I went and had some discussion with our largest courier to have some discussions with the Minister, and they did to better understand that because you do not want to see an increase in aviation and pass that cost along to the customer, which in 10 out of 10 cases always happens. The customer ends up paying. There is an exemption, so, if you add on the exemption to support the cost of capital, your annual rebate, as the Minister mentioned, it is going to come in at your tax return season, which is kind of like once every 14 months by the time you get it in your account.

The other bill coming would help adjust the rebate system to our territory from the tax collected as identified in that last quoted sentence I mentioned earlier. So the cost of capital is going to be somewhat eased onto the residents, seeing that the residents are going to see payments, multi payments, per year compared to annual payments on the federal backstop, plus add on the exemption of aviation fuel. I think those are evidences enough for me, and other heating fuel rebates, that we are trying to ease the burden of this tax onto the residents. So I feel comfortable with that. I feel comfortable that our government has negotiated in good faith and came back with a package that I am satisfied with. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

To the motion. I will put the question to committee. First, we have Mr. Nadli.

Michael Nadli

Michael Nadli Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The motion before us, I support the idea because I think, as Northerners, sometimes we are given what we receive and sometimes we do not have a choice. What we are facing is an imposition of a tax, and, seeing people struggling in small communities, you know, a further tax on their household income is crazy, I mean, if I could just put it bluntly, especially at this point, as we kind of move towards the idea of an election. People will gauge your performance on whether you support a tax or not, and that is what we are facing at this point. Besides that, I serve on the committee that was tasked with doing the consultations, and I have to disagree with the Minister saying that we are to blame because of the lack of consultations. I take exception to that because I think the Minister and Cabinet had all of the authority and power and influence with the federal government in terms of trying to rationalize the imposition of this tax and how it could work for Northerners. Have we exhausted every effort? Have we done our best for the interests of all Northerners? In the meantime, as a committee, we were expected to take that on the road and tell people, well, this was the best thing that we could come up with? I'm sorry. I don't buy into that. For those reasons, we are left with the debate at this point.

We have to stand up in terms of where we are as Northerners, especially in small communities. This imposition of this tax to further burden people who are struggling in small communities is unbecoming. That's where I stand. At the same time, in terms of this motion, we have to try and at least see if there is a way that we can buy some time, perhaps for the next Assembly, to make some modest improvements on the tax. Mahsi.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. To the motion. Mr. Blake.

Frederick Blake Jr.

Frederick Blake Jr. Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chair. In reality, it would be nice if this motion was true, and we were going to give our residents a four-month tax break, but it's really not true, because we have a letter here stating that, on September 1st, if the NWT doesn't put their package in place, the federal government will implement theirs. That means that home heating fuel, for example, as the Minister mentioned, will be taxed. We have a lot of small companies in our territory, small businesses, large businesses, and homeowners who use a lot of home heating fuel and fuel during the winter months. Everybody will be seeing a tax if we go by the federal backstop. With our approach, it is a little easier for the residents of the Northwest Territories.

You know what? I don't support any taxes. Being from the second-highest cost of living in the Northwest Territories, which is the Mackenzie Delta next to Nunakput, we pay the highest costs. Gasoline is up to $1.72 a litre. Home heating fuel is $1.62. If we had $1.30 like it is here, people wouldn't notice it as much, but when you're paying $1.75 a litre, it is probably going to go up to close to $1.80 is just my rough guess in some communities.

You are going to see a lot of upset people here come September 1st, and for sure, we are going to get the most flak, but it's really not us who are implementing this. This is the Liberal government's approach to what they campaigned on when they ran. This is almost like the cannabis bill which we had to implement. I know our committee got a lot of flak over it, but like I said, we never put that in place. We just dealt with making sure that it is in place for the Northwest Territories. Right from the start, I said that I don't approve of any tax coming to our territory, but in this case, this is a much better deal for residents of the Northwest Territories. I will have to not support this one. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Mr. Blake. Mr. Vanthuyne, to the motion.

Cory Vanthuyne

Cory Vanthuyne Yellowknife North

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Like many of us in here, I regret that we are even in this position right now and that we even have to give consideration to this kind of a tax on Northerners. I am very aware, every time I speak in this House, that folks from Ottawa are listening closely. Sometimes I am open to sending messages to them just as much as I am sending messages to colleagues here in our chamber.

It is troubling that here we are, at the eleventh hour, and it is still unclear, and that we have to undertake this debate as it relates to even the coming-into-force date. Everyone knows that I don't support these bills to begin with, and I won't be supporting them even though I sense that they are likely to pass, but if I can be seen even as making some legitimate attempt to even delay the coming into force, even if it is for four months leading into the winter, then I will certainly attempt to do that.

I am not convinced by today's letter from a staffer in Ottawa that that is the actually authority that is going to tell us that September 1st is the coming-into-force date. I am now convinced that the Minister is now the authority, who has said that earlier today, has now said it is coming into force on September 1st. Now what I am trying to do is convince my colleagues in this House to delay that by four months. I think that that is the attempt that I am trying to make here, and so I will be in support of the motion.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

To the motion. Mr. O'Reilly.

Kevin O'Reilly

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I support the motion. I think that at least it leaves the door open to the option of making further changes, improvements, to Cabinet's plan. This is a made-by-Cabinet approach. There are no details. It will be the next Minister of Finance who determines what the details are, in terms of rebates, grants, how the money is spent, and so on. All of that is going to be set out in regulation that none of us may have any say in, not even the public. I am fine with leaving the door open to the chance to develop a better plan.

We have talked about what has been done in the Yukon with rebates to First Nation governments, to municipal governments; revenue sharing with First Nation governments, with municipal governments; an ability to have a more flexible rebate system for individuals, so that those in rural and remote communities get more back. We could have designed that kind of a system. Unfortunately, that is not what we are getting.

I am in favour of pushing back this date in the hopes that we can actually design a better system, because Cabinet did not give us any options. Cabinet did not work with the committee to develop any options, any different kinds of scenarios. In fact, they just went off and negotiated whatever they wanted with the federal government, and they did that while this was even before the committee. I am all in favour of pushing this back in the hopes that we can design a better system that actually meets the needs of Northerners, because Cabinet's plan does not. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. Testart.

Kieron Testart

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I request a recorded vote. Thank you.

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

The Member has requested a recorded vote. All those in favour, please rise.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Committee Clerk

The Member for Kam Lake, the Member for Frame Lake, the Member for Yellowknife Centre, the Member for Deh Cho, the Member for Yellowknife North.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 6166

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

All those opposed, please rise.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 6166

Committee Clerk

The Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh, the Member for Nahendeh, the Member for Nunakput, the Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, the Member for Range Lake, the Member for Great Slave, the Member for Yellowknife South, the Member for Twin Lakes, the Member for Hay River South, the Member for Thebacha, the Member for Mackenzie Delta, the Member for Sahtu.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

All those abstaining, please rise. The results of the recorded vote are: five in favour, 12 opposed, zero abstentions.

---Defeated

Clause 22. Does committee agree?

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 6166

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, committee. To the schedule. Minister McLeod.