This is page numbers 6187 - 6288 of the Hansard for the 18th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was public.

Topics

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6264

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. Testart.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6264

Kieron Testart

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you. I think that system works very well. Yet, we have this clause. What is the intention of this clause? Is the intention of this clause to change best efforts? Sorry. What is the policy direction? Will this clause be used to change the state of play away from best efforts and towards prescribed benefits for the public? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6264

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6264

Wally Schumann

Wally Schumann Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The answer is no. Currently, we use best efforts along with the proponents and Indigenous governments to make best efforts for the residents of the Northwest Territories through SEAs. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6264

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Mr. Testart.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6264

Kieron Testart

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Just once more for clarity, the Minister will confirm that the government's position on this clause is to continue the practice of best-effort socio-economic agreements moving forward into the regulations? Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6264

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Ms. Faryna.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

Faryna

Thank you, Mr. Chair. This enabling authority allows us to put behind SEAs or whichever tool it evolves in the future to modernize our measures for benefits. It allows us to have a statutory enabling authority behind them because, currently, right now, we do not have that. Within those regulations, they could be designed however appropriate. Even within, for example, socio-economic agreements that were enabled under legislation, the content of the agreement itself could still have terms phrased as best efforts. I don't think this enabling authority sets any rules. It allows us to have the flexibility, as we said, to work with the proponent to find the best way to maximize benefits. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Mr. Testart.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th, 2019

Page 6265

Kieron Testart

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Could this section be used to enable regulations that creates a penalty regime if companies aren't able to meet their benefits governed by this section? Yes or no. Thank you.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you, Mr. Testart. Ms. McLaughlin.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

Mclaughlin

Thank you, Mr. Chair. There is a counterpart regulation-making authority with respect to section 51. If it is okay to note it, it is 111(1)(u), and the language there is "respecting requirements in respect of measures." That provides benefits to the people of the Northwest Territories. "Requirements in respect of measures" could include a series of things, but there are no more particulars that indicate that penalties would flow from parts of that "requirements with respect to measures." Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. Testart.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

Kieron Testart

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chair. What I am trying to seek clarity on is, A, how broad is this, and I think we've learned it's fairly broad; and B, given that, most likely, this will not change from its current form tonight, let's give crystal clear certainty what the government plans to do with this moving forward.

The Minister can say that there are no concerns from industry or investor confidence. We've got correspondence that says this section is very vague. So if he could just put on the public record tonight that this is just codifying what is currently going on in the Northwest Territories and there are no plans to change it, that would be a comfort to me and a comfort, I think, to our home audience. Thank you.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

Wally Schumann

Wally Schumann Hay River South

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The reason we have this in here is to incur benefits for NWT residents. That's what we will continue to do, and that's why we have it in here, and we are subject to improvement going forward. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Mr. Testart.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

Kieron Testart

Kieron Testart Kam Lake

I'll interpret that as "no." The fact that we don't know where this is headed, that it's incredibly broad, those were the initial concerns of committee, and I really hope that gets resolved tonight, that there is some clarity on this, because this is a big hole in this legislation that is solved by regulations, and we don't get to decide those, and we don't know what those are going to look like. So we need some certainly on this, and if all we could get is policy certainty tonight, I'd be happy, but we couldn't even get that. So I still have grave concerns around this section. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Clause 51. Mr. O'Reilly.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

Kevin O'Reilly

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yes, I, too, have very major concerns around section 51. Look, I'm all for benefits, and even if we have to legislate them, I'm fine with that. It could codify best practice, but this is written in such a broad, vague, permissive fashion it could mean anything. I understand what the Minister has said he intends to do; the problem is he may not be the Minister who develops the regulations in the 19th Assembly. It could be somebody else. It could be me; imagine that.

So the purpose that I heard the Minister talk about earlier was providing clarity, certainty, setting out expectations, all of those good things. That's not what section 51 does. This is the ticking time bomb in the bill. This could allow a Minister to reach back into the exploration phase and require benefits. The way this is worded, there is no specific trigger identified. There is no specific list of benefits. Benefits don't even have a definition in the bill. I've heard what the intentions are, but that's not what this reads.

Just to be really clear, what would be the trigger that would require benefits under section 51? Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'd like to ask that of the Minister. Thank you.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Ms. Faryna.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

Faryna

Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is enabling authority, and each regulation underneath this enabling authority for benefits, the measures, let's say, would have to set a trigger for that measure, for example socioeconomic agreements. I think, when you are referring to certainty, this enabling authority is meant to provide our population, the residents of the Northwest Territories, that what they expect from mining, benefits, is enshrined in the legislation. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6265

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Mr. O'Reilly.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6266

Kevin O'Reilly

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Thanks, Mr. Chair. So the trigger is going to be set by regulation. I get that. That's the way this has been drafted. The benefits are going to be set by regulation, so there is nothing stopping a future Minister from requiring benefits right back to prospecting through the entire mining cycle. Those benefits could include requiring local hiring, spending, the sorts of things that we do now. They could actually involve setting penalties. You know, this is just far too broad, Mr. Chair. There is no certainty created by this.

What it looks like is the department, the Minister wants to obtain ultimate flexibility in defining this in the future, but you have to balance that off against the uncertainty that this is going to create. This has the potential to scare away investment because it is so broad, so vague, it could allow future Ministers to reach right back to the beginning of prospecting. You know, I've heard the intention is to build on socioeconomic agreements; great. That's now what this provision does.

Now, other parts of this section deal with the Indigenous government benefit agreements. That's great. There is a clear process for that. There is dispute resolution laid out. Those are going to be negotiated. There's a process laid out. It's tied to, right now, a production project, and I think we're going to talk more about that. There's a clear trigger. There is a process. There is nothing around any of that for these broad public benefits.

I'm sorry, the Minister and the department cannot have their cake and eat it, too. You've got to provide some level of clarity, certainty, here, around what this really means. The way this bill has been drafted, it doesn't do that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If the Minister would like to speak to this, I'd be happy to hear what he may have to say. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Recorded Vote
Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

August 20th

Page 6266

The Chair

The Chair R.J. Simpson

Thank you. Minister, any comments?