This is page numbers 2569 - 2602 of the Hansard for the 19th Assembly, 2nd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was community.

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Question 679-19(2): Road Construction Economic Benefits
Oral Questions

March 29th, 2021

Page 2573

Diane Archie

Diane Archie Inuvik Boot Lake

I want to start off by saying it was a struggle to find some of the workers as the diamond mines may attract many of the available workforce and also some other projects, like the Tli Cho Construction. However, I do want to say that RTL, the construction company, was able to maintain over 25 percent of the local labour requirement as per the ICA. Construction will resume in May 2021 and is expected to be completed, the full project, this fall, 2021. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's not a three-year project. It will be done this fall. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Minister. Oral questions. Member for Frame Lake.

Kevin O'Reilly

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Merci, Monsieur le President. My questions are for the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, who administers Income Assistance. First, I would like the Minister to confirm that it is this government's position that a garnishee of a tax refund is counted as unearned income and is deducted from Income Assistance payments to that client. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister of Education, Culture and Employment.

R.J. Simpson

R.J. Simpson Hay River North

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Income Assistance Regulations, Section 4(j), (n), (o.2) state that the following shall be considered unearned income. That includes the GST tax credit, income tax refunds including payments of tax credits, so, yes, that is the correct interpretation of the legislation. Thank you.

Kevin O'Reilly

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

I want to thank the Minister for confirming that. Yes, the Minister said that Income Assistance clients can use their annual "unearned income exemption of up to $1,200 to offset the penalty for the garnishee." While this may be true, most people are required to pay back CERB through tax-refund garnishees, and they probably owe a lot more than $1,200. This exemption was meant to offset the occasional gift from family or friends. Will the Minister be lenient in his interpretation of the words "tax refund" in the Income Assistance regulations and not claw back garnishees from tax refunds for CERB recipients for money that was never supposed to reduce Income Assistance in the first place?

R.J. Simpson

R.J. Simpson Hay River North

CERB never did reduce Income Assistance. Right now, if someone receives a tax refund, it is counted as income. If the Government of Canada takes that back, it's still counted as tax income. The Income Assistance Program does not pay debts. However, the Government of Canada has stated that they are not going to be clawing back any of the monthly or quarterly tax credits that people received, such as GST or Child Tax Benefit, so it would likely only be the income tax refund. For the majority of clients, that's worth $350, so that would be $350 out of the $1,200.

The Government of Canada is taking a compassionate approach to the collection of these debts, and I encourage any residents who have to pay CERB back to contact the Government of Canada and create a payment plan so that they can avoid hits like that. Right now, they're not strong arming. They're not taking a very aggressive approach, and they understand that not everyone is in a situation to repay this money. There are financial hardship provisions to ensure that a person is not put into undue financial hardship because of recovery of government debt. However, in order to get that from the CRA, you have to reach out to them, so I encourage anyone who has to pay CERB back, to reach out and make payment arrangements.

Kevin O'Reilly

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

I want to thank the Minister for that compassionate response. It's great to point to the federal government and try to get compassion from them. I'm talking to the Minister on the floor here; he needs to demonstrate and lead with some compassion from our government. This perverse practice of deducting garnishees from tax refunds from Income Assistance is going to lead to excessive hardships for many NWT residents who received CERB payments. Can the Minister tell us whether this situation is being tracked and what percentage of total Income Assistance recipients are suffering from this deduction of garnishees from their monthly payments?

R.J. Simpson

R.J. Simpson Hay River North

I can also point out that a number of people have voluntarily paid back CERB once they realized that they weren't eligible for it. They made repayment arrangements. There're a number of people who are working who aren't on Income Assistance who may have to pay CERB back. The Income Assistance program has continued throughout CERB, and it continues. No changes have been made except for the exemption of CERB, so there has been a very compassionate response.

To the Member's exact question, which I should have answered first because it's alluding me somewhat. Yes, tracking the results. Generally, there is reporting done on a monthly basis with Income Assistance. However, during the pandemic, that was put on hold, and we've asked people to report their income starting in November. We've taken a lenient approach with that, and those numbers are still tricking in. We don't have a total of how many people received CERB and do not know how many people need to pay it back. It's a small percentage of the total number of Income Assistance recipients.

The Speaker

The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Minister. Final supplementary. Member for Frame Lake.

Kevin O'Reilly

Kevin O'Reilly Frame Lake

Merci, Monsieur le President. I want to thank the Minister for that, and of course, I'm going to be asking him the same question in May/June. That's a quick heads-up. Look, I'm convinced that we will be punishing Income Assistance recipients who were supposed to have no deductions as a result of CERB payments, who now have to pay it back through garnishees to tax refunds. I think that's just a result of a harsh interpretation of the regulations. Will the Minister exercise some discretion and stop a garnishee on tax refunds as being considered unearned income or change the regulations now to stop this punitive and perverse practice in these extraordinary times? Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

R.J. Simpson

R.J. Simpson Hay River North

No, we won't be changing the regulations. We won't be stopping this practice there. The CRA, whose program this is, has policies to prevent undue hardship. The Income Assistance Program has policies to exempt these types of funds. There're people who have made payment arrangements with CRA. There're people who have already paid this back. We'd be punishing them for paying the money back when they could have just not paid it back and had it forgiven by Income Assistance. Essentially, what the Member is asking is that the GNWT take over the CERB program and then pay CERB. That's what we would be doing by basically writing off these amounts. The CERB was a federal program, and the feds are handling it. We are in contact with the federal government. I've had calls with the relevant Ministers, and I told them about our situation here in the territory and that they need to take a compassionate approach. From everything I can see, they have been doing that, and we will continue that advocacy. I'm happy to keep the Member and the Assembly updated with any progress and let everyone know what we hear. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker

The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Minister. Oral questions. Member for Kam Lake.

Caitlin Cleveland

Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Today, my questions are for the Minister of Health and Social Services, and my first question for the Minister is: can she confirm the vaccination rates in the Northwest Territories by small community, regional centre, and also Yellowknife? Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Minister of Health and Social Services.

Julie Green

Julie Green Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don't have the full detail that the Member is looking for because the Chief Public Health Officer is still refining the numbers. What I can say is that we've achieved approximately 58 percent uptake on vaccine dose 1, and 36 percent uptake on dose 2. The range of community level uptake is between 40 percent and the high 70s depending on the particular community. We know from trending information that the highest step taken is in the oldest population, and the lowest is in the youngest population. The residents of the NWT who are between 18 and 34 are well below the 50 percent uptake in most communities. At this point, it's fair to say that there is no region or community in the NWT that's met our target of vaccinating 75 percent of the population. Thank you.

Caitlin Cleveland

Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

No. I think that's very valuable information. I think it's also important that we know where work still needs to be done, especially when it comes to public education, and where we can kind of help make sure that our younger brothers and sisters and maybe our children or family members could stand to help us reach that herd immunity. What I'm wondering, Mr. Speaker, is: since we know that we're working towards 75 percent vaccination rate and we're hoping to reach it before the summer and I am very hopeful that the department of Health is able to get there in order to achieve herd immunity, given that vaccination update has lagged in some communities, will changes to community public health restrictions happen on a community-by-community basis depending on vaccination rates?

Julie Green

Julie Green Yellowknife Centre

Thank you for that question. It's not clear at this time whether the CPHO would make changes on a community-by-community basis. We do know that, in the month of April, she's going in to review of the whole of the Emerging Wisely Plan to look at ways in which to ease restrictions. Certainly, the vaccine rate will figure into that. The rate that we've all been discussing is 75 percent. I think that that rate is now in question to some extent, given changing situations such as the variants and how transmissible they are, vaccine uptake, a number of other things that may change the immunity level that we require in communities to say that we are fully vaccinated. Of course, as the Member knows, children are not in this group, and there are a few others who haven't been vaccinated for various reasons. The whole business of how much is enough is really up for debate at this point.

Caitlin Cleveland

Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

I think it's valuable to have the conversation about community-by-community lifting and easing of restrictions. For example, if you end up with Ulukhaktok who ends up with 75 percent vaccination rates and they've had great success, say, in their community and they want to get back to doing social activities, they want to ease up on restrictions as far as capacity and gatherings, and if we here in Yellowknife have not reached that level, it would be really unfortunate to have surrounding communities really held back by their opportunity. Likewise, it would also not benefit Yellowknife to be held to a standard of a community up in the Beaufort-Delta or in Nunakput. Not to put people against one another, but we will have different success at different points in time. I think it's valuable to be able to look at this from a community-by-community basis, and not strictly an NWT-wide basis, as well.

What I'm wondering is: based on where we're going, given that we are in the last three days of session and people are looking for more information, does the Minister have any idea of what types of easing of restrictions or potential changes within our borders we might be able to see within summer months? I know that we are waiting on the Chief Public Health Officer, but there is a lot of planning that goes into summer months for businesses, especially when we have seasonal-type work that occurs in the summer. People need to rehire, they need to retrain, and they need to be able to get their business going.

Julie Green

Julie Green Yellowknife Centre

Let me state, first of all, that my hope is for a very high vaccine uptake so that the whole territory is able to come out of restrictions and resume life as we knew it a year ago. We do not want to pit communities against one another. That is definitely one of the risks that the CPHO will be assessing in deciding what detail to release to the public in terms of vaccination levels, whether it is feasible to release by community or by region.

Some of the variables that the Office of the Chief Public Health Officer will be looking at, as I mentioned before, is whether the vaccine will prevent the transmission of the virus. We know that it will prevent people from getting sicker, but can you still carry the virus, even when you are vaccinated, and pass it on to someone else? It also, of course, depends on the vaccination rate, and it depends on how well the vaccine protects against the variants, which I feel are now on the doorstep, now that we know there are variants in Yukon and Fort Chipewyan. It feels closer to home than ever before.

What the CPHO has said historically is that a high vaccination rate will enable us to remove restrictions internally first. That will be things such as business capacity, summer music festivals, family gatherings, weddings, and so on and so forth. Those would be the activities that are, at first, going to be relaxed, and then the whole situation around the border and self-isolation will be addressed next, depending on what is happening in southern Canada. We want to give businesses as much notice as possible to be prepared to open. I hope that we will be able to do this by the end of April when the CPHO issues her revised Emerging Wisely.

The Speaker

The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Minister. Final supplementary. Member for Kam Lake.

Caitlin Cleveland

Caitlin Cleveland Kam Lake

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Some of the northern businesses that we rely on on a regular basis continue to struggle under the existing public health restrictions. If the GNWT cannot commit to changes in public health restrictions once herd immunity is reached or if we still don't reach herd immunity this summer, how does the Department of Health and Social Services intend to support and advocate for the mental health and economic needs of Northerners under continued restrictions in the Northwest Territories? Thank you.

Julie Green

Julie Green Yellowknife Centre

I find it hard to answer a huge hypothetical there that crosses many different departments. What I want to say is that I appreciate that people, that residents in the NWT, the Members of this House, want to return to normal gatherings, normal ways of doing business, and normal ways of visiting family that they knew a year ago. I am keen on that, as well. My hope is that the rationale for easing the restrictions internally and externally will be made known to the public by the end of April. Thank you.

The Speaker

The Speaker Frederick Blake Jr.

Thank you, Minister. Oral questions. Member for Great Slave.

Katrina Nokleby

Katrina Nokleby Great Slave

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. One of the issues with consensus government is that I don't always collaborate with my colleagues. Therefore, my colleague from Kam Lake has asked a few of the same questions, and in her lengthy answers, the Minister has answered them. I am just going to ask to repeat the same concerns that I had as my colleague's. When can businesses expect to receive easy-to-understand information, such as flow charts or if-then scenarios, to allow them to plan for the remainder of 2021, information that contains dates and timelines and key milestones? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.