Mr. Chairman, I would to ask Mr. Handley to respond to that.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That's a breakdown of that number.

Mr. Chairman, the number of person years that are created under this particular activity are 20 full-time, 180 seasonal, and 10 to 15 seasonal casual person years.

Mr. Chairman, maybe I'll ask Mr. Handley to respond to it.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The particular concern raised by the Member comes under the Environmental Protection Act. It was raised to me as a concern by Members from Yellowknife. I chaired a meeting that all the Members of Yellowknife attended, as well as officials of a mine here in Yellowknife and a number of the other department groups in the government. We had, I believe, a full-length discussion as to how these concerns that are being raised will be addressed.

The department officials are continuing to meet and try to come up with an agreement because it is the department that continues to monitor the quality of air that surrounds the city. Discussions are still going on between mine officials and department staff who are in environmental protection. If we are not able to come up with an agreement on the air quality, the guidelines that we have are exactly what the title states; they are guidelines, and are not enforceable. If we're not able to come to an agreement, we will consider making them regulations. At the present time, I believe that department staff and mine officials are still in the midst of discussions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

No, Mr. Chairman. I believe the honourable Member has made a point and we will consider her comments. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There was considerable information about Fort Smith and I don't know if I'll be able to address it all, but I will certainly make an effort. With regard to the way we fight fires with aircraft -- which I believe was the first issue raised by the honourable Member -- from the consultation that has been made, we have been criticized for spending far too much money on aircraft when we fight fires and not enough in the communities. I believe that some very sound recommendations have been made by people in the communities and they will be considered. Some of these recommendations are being included in the submission that will be made to Cabinet.

With regard to how we should be compensating those who lose their cabins or any capital items in the bush, I believe there will be a more reasonable amount of funds left in the communities. We're looking at how more of the dollars could end up in the communities, perhaps by doing more presuppression work before the fire season starts and by requiring the clearing of brush around communities, cabins and lodges which will leave money for people in the communities. Rather than a holding figure under fire suppression, the creation of a target will force us to look at how we can make better use of manpower.

The Member indicated how fires should be attacked within a 24-hour period from the time they start. We can't dispute that. It is something that has been proven. Each of the fire bosses that are out there decide which fires should be attacked and how they should be attacked. That responsibility lies with each fire boss in each area. It makes it very difficult when we have very limited aircraft if, at any one time, 70 fires are starting up on a day; and there have been days when up to 70 fires will start up. It makes it very difficult for aircraft to get to all the fires. I think this was especially the case last year when we had such large fires which got away.

The fire bosses who are in the camps in the fire areas are probably the closest to the communities. Usually, they are from the general area they are managing and they usually decide which fires require the use of aircraft. The success rate of fires being fought has been up to 90 per cent in some years. Some years, like last year, the success rate was probably 70 per cent, which is somewhat lower but still a considerably high rate where firefighters were successful. Because the department no longer has an open chequebook in terms of firefighting but rather, has a target that they have to meet, they will have to make some tough decisions concerning future forest fires they have to fight. They will be looking at a target and have to decide which fires really do have to be fought. That is one thing we are looking in order to try to reduce the dollars that are used.

In terms of the type of aircraft that will now be used: in year one, it is proposed that two DC-4's would be used; in year two, one DC-4 and one DC-6; in year three, two DC-6's will be used; and, in year four and year five, the two DC-6's will be used as well. This contract has been let to a northern contractor. There are times when we have to pay a price for contracting with northern businesses and this is one of those cases where we are paying a price for contracting with a northerner, but it is something that, I believe, most northerners are agreeable with.

In terms of the type of work that is being done by the department, specifically on recycling, there was a submission made to the Financial Management Board on how we could carry out a recycling program with beverage containers. However, the Financial Management Board turned that down because it was too costly to try to operate the recycling of beverage containers.

The other large consideration to us is the environment. Beverage containers may be unsightly but they are not hazardous to the environment. The number one area that the department looks at when it considers environmental protection priorities is the disposal of hazardous wastes such as PCBs. The second in priority would be the air quality guidelines, which the department has considered making into regulations in consultation with the federal government. But at this point they are still guidelines.

The third of the environmental protection priorities is used-oil disposal guidelines. These three areas are areas that are hazardous to our environment and have been a high priority for the department. In terms of the beverage containers, I have indicated that they may be unsightly but are not hazardous. Again, a submission had been made to try and recycle beverage containers, but it was turned down by the Financial Management Board because it was too costly.

In terms of the bison ranch, I had committed myself earlier this afternoon to holding a public meeting regarding the bison which were to be brought down south. To my understanding, the people who run the ranch have never used choppers -- the bison ranch has used choppers but it has never used choppers to transport feed for the bison -- and the location of the ranch was something that the department inherited when they took over the running of the ranch. To try to relocate the ranch to another location would be too costly. At one point, it was being proposed that we should close the ranch down. I had debated that and thought that we should continue to try to make the ranch a viable operation. At the present time, we have 185 bison. From what I understand, in order to make it a viable operation they would require 200 cows, so we are nowhere near the requirement to make it a viable operation. Hence, the department's decision to try and sell off live bison to try to retrieve some of the costs that have been incurred by the department to run the ranch.

The area that we have run into in terms of wanting to hold public meetings in the town of Fort Smith has come from the chief, who is new. He wants to get to know more about what is required of him before he attends public meetings. That is where our fallback has been; we have taken the chief's suggestion and have said we will wait a little longer. Now, I believe it's time the department staff will be able to meet with the community leaders and try to agree that there should be public meetings. But it makes it difficult -- especially in the town of Fort Smith where the Dene band and the Metis are not willing to work together -- for the department to come in and work with all community groups, which we have made every effort to do in all the communities. It makes it difficult to try to get anything done when there is this dispute, this disagreement.

Next is in terms of the chief park warden who started cutting on the wrong side of the river. I've seen it in some of the communities where I've run into the renewable resource officers. There are many warnings that are given by the renewable resource officers before charges are laid. I've seen many, many warnings being given by the officers before they lay any charges. I believe that this is one case where the chief park warden had started cutting on the wrong side. It was the view of department officials that this was not really a sensitive area because if the request had been for the individual to cut on one side in a particular area, then the permit would have been issued. So a warning was given but he was not charged. The individual was allowed to carry on with his permit, except on the other side. He was allowed to cut the same amount as he would have been allowed in the original site.

In terms of the wildlife committee, this is an issue that I believe the department has made efforts to try to resolve. I believe it is one where the department would have been able to effectively work in the community with regard to departmental issues. However, when the various organizations that were approached, such as the Dene band, the chief-in-council, and the Metis, are not willing to work together, it makes it very difficult to form a committee. The individuals were not even willing to face each other on such a committee. The department made an effort to form a wildlife committee but was unsuccessful in doing so.

I hope I've addressed most of the concerns that were raised by the honourable Member. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the concern raised by the Member about how much is being spent by this department for fire suppression. I believe it is a major part of our budget, therefore it is a major concern to the department. It seems regardless of what we do, there will always be somebody who is not happy with what we're doing. We are making an effort to try to meet some of the reasonable suggestions being made by people. Department staff have been to all the communities in the Northwest Territories that are within the treeline. The only community where they have not yet held public consultations is Fort Smith. This coming Wednesday, my deputy minister will be in Fort Smith, meeting with the various leaders. I believe they'll be determining at that point whether there should be a public meeting.

There was concern raised by one of the leaders in Fort Smith about holding a public meeting. Therefore, it has been delayed until this upcoming meeting on Wednesday. With the number of dollars that were spent in the last year, I'm sure all Members and all people in the Northwest Territories realize that last year was an unusual year for forest fires, that it was considerably worse than other years. The staff indicated to me last week that, on average, the amount of dollars that have been spent every year since the time forest fire management was taken over by the Government of the Northwest Territories, was about $11 million. When they took last year into consideration, it raised the average to $13 million a year.

So last year has really made a difference in the average number of dollars that have been spent per year since the time we took over forest fire management.

With that, the consultants who were hired well before my time to consult with the communities, to come up with a report, and recommendations to the department have since been completed. I apologize to the Member, I had indicated I would give her a copy. We have just recently put that together and a package will be coming to the Member in the next day or so.

With regard to how the department came upon this review and the consultation that has taken place over the winter, many Members of the House raised this as a concern that departments should be consulting with the communities. I took the concerns that were raised by Members and felt that direct involvement by departmental staff who are involved in the management of fires should be talking to people in the communities directly and hearing from them directly about the concerns that are being raised in the communities. I think the suggestions that are being made are reasonable. We will be taking those recommendations from the report that was made by the consultants, as well as the consultation that was done by department staff, and come up with a submission to Cabinet and to the Financial Management Board as to how we will be able to spend our money on forest fires at a more manageable level. From what I understand, the consultations have been very good. It has been in consultation with those who are fighting the fires every summer, and elders who have fought fires before, and people who are generally concerned about forest fires in and around their communities.

The concerns that are being raised are very widely varied. Some of the responses given by elders were that they used to fight fires in the evenings as soon as they got to a fire, just as the Members have indicated, and fight fires at night when it was cool and how that has changed to the way fires are being fought today. Much of that change, I believe, has to do with the collective bargaining. Many of the people who are fighting fires today do not want to fight fires at night even though many of the elders have indicated and many of the people who know about firefighting have said that it is easier to try to fight fires at night. It has become a collective bargaining issue because, from what I understand, many of the people who fight fires do not want to fight fires at night.

Some of the other concerns that I've heard are statements such as we should be letting the fires burn because it's natural and it creates new growth in the area. I've heard staff saying this was told to them by elders in the communities. And there are others who have said that every single little fire that's starting up, we should be after. There are a wide variety of concerns being raised by people across the western Northwest Territories. We are taking them seriously. Mr. Pollard has indicated to us that we really have to take a serious look at how much we are spending in terms of our forest fires. I believe that we will come up with a reasonable submission, one that has taken into account the concerns raised by people in the community and concerns that have been raised by our Finance Minister as well as Members of this House.

I've indicated that I hope that this report will be completed by the end of March. We should have a submission into Cabinet and the Financial Management Board within the next few weeks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't know if I'll be able to respond to all of the concerns that were raised by the honourable Member; however, I will make an attempt. The first concern was in the area of fire suppression, which my department has been concentrating heavily on over this past winter, with consultations directly by departmental staff in, I believe, most of the communities within the treeline. There have been some very good suggestions by people in the communities. It's an area that not only this department, but a number of the other GNWT departments are also very concerned with. We have discussed it at length at all levels of the department. The department, as Mr. Antoine says, is a major contributor to the fiscal situation that we're in.

Mr. Chairman, we have been consulting and I believe that our consultations have resulted in some very good suggestions and we are taking those recommendations and will be turning them around. There is a report that is being written by departmental staff. Hopefully, this report will be completed by the end of March. The general question that has been raised is how we could reduce the costs of fire suppression. I believe there are a number of ways and we'll be able to give more detail once the report has been completed and has gone through Cabinet. I know that the Standing Committee on Finance Members have raised this concern that the holding figure of $7 million is way too small in a bad fire season. One of the ideas that is being considered is to change that from a holding figure to a target figure, where we could look at a target which will be looked at throughout the fire season, something that could be looked at half-way through the fire season to consider various ways of being able to meet that target.

There are also other areas where I believe that we could do more in terms of pre-suppression, in terms of the various developments that have taken place out in the bush; so that whenever there are cabins being built in the bush, there are plans that are going to be laid out for those cabins that are built. Any type of commercial development within the treeline would require a fire plan. I think those are the general types of considerations that are being made which have also been recommended by community groups.

This, I believe, is a major area in which the department has heard from the communities. Another measure that has been suggested and will be considered is the compensation program that we have is also very limited. We are looking at the compensation program, how it is that we could improve on the compensation program. Those recommendations or suggestions that have been made as well as the preparation work, pre-suppression work that would be required, I believe, would be able to reduce the expenditures that we have in fighting fires. I believe that addresses two concerns: one, that whenever the fire season is upon us, there is an open chequebook. That is the impression that Members seem to be concerned about, and people of the Northwest Territories. So that changes the appearance of an open-chequebook concept to a closed-chequebook one because there would be a target that the fire crew and everybody in the Northwest Territories would be able to see. There would be a limit to the number of dollars that would be spent for the summer. Also, it would enable more of the dollars to end up in the communities, which I think has been another concern that has been raised by Members of the House.

I've indicated that this report, from the consultation that has been made in the communities, should be ready by the end of March. It will have to be brought into Cabinet and, eventually, a submission would be made for the Financial Management Board to consider.

In terms of the concerns raised by Mr. Antoine on the stumpage fees, the stumpage fees will be increased. Firewood fees have not increased. Reforestation fees have been increased to $5. The stumpage fees are also being considered, but there will be consultation on the increase to those fees.

The costs of managing the trees is something that has to be considered, much the same way as big game hunters are charged a fee for the management of wildlife we have in the Northwest Territories. The fees raised by the government are put directly back into the forests in the Northwest Territories. The increase of the reforestation fees, I believe, is very small,

as the amounts received by the person doing the work is approximately $190. Of that, they pay a $5 fee.

In terms of the identification of timber that is to be cut in any area, I believe the department is making more of an effort to consult with and work with the various communities, and bands in the communities, to decide where any forestry work will be done in their particular area. I've encouraged that consultation has to take place, that the communities, the bands and the organizations in the communities have to know where forests are being considered for cutting because it is their resource and they should be involved in how their area is developed.

I believe that the concerns raised in Mr. Antoine's constituency, in particular, have been and will continue to be consulted, and hopefully, will have direct involvement in the planning of where trees will be cut.

In terms of the furs, which is another major concern to people at the community level all across the Northwest Territories, it is an area that we really do not have a lot of control over, but we have been making a great deal of effort to inform people who are in the market to buy furs and those who have the power to control the market; namely, the European Parliament and European commission.

Mr. Antoine has a very good understanding of what has been done. He has been very involved in what has gone on, and we appreciate the assistance he's given us.

I think we are continuing to lobby the European commission. We are hoping we will be able to make another trip in the not-too-distant future. I believe that the European commission or the Parliament will be gathering in the spring. Before this gathering takes place, we should make another trip to try to convince those in the market, the buyers, that the wild fur we sell is very good quality fur.

With respect to the specific committees Mr. Antoine has raised and the concerns he has about the amount of dollars that have been spent in the Northwest Territories, I believe even though we have not yet been given the standards of what types of traps should be used in the Northwest Territories, we should be proactive and continue to try to show that we are making every effort that we possibly can to improve on the type of standards the market is looking for. That is where we have been spending our dollars: in the research and in the training of the users of the quick kill traps. I believe we should continue to work to try to improve on the traps we use.

The International Standards Organization, which is the group that will create standards for the type of trap that should be used, I believe it has been difficult for them to come up with a definition of what humane is. Until that definition has been cleared up, it is very difficult to try to come up with any kind of quick kill trap that meets a certain standard because there really isn't a standard at this point. But we are working on it, and I believe the traps that have been produced are strong enough and powerful enough that they will be able to meet the standards that are set.

I believe we have a standard of trap that could be considered humane. The kind of trap that is being used, from the indications we've received from the market, is that the fur that is coming out of the Northwest Territories is very good quality fur when they use the quick kill traps.

In terms of the auction houses and the work the department was starting to do for the grading house we had talked about at one point in time in this Assembly, it is still a target that we, as a department, are trying to meet. But with the situation we have in the Northwest Territories, it makes it very difficult to try to meet what was recommended.

We had started by hiring a person to work in the department on furs and to train someone on how to grade furs properly. To say that there will be a facility that will be used to grade furs and will route all furs from the Northwest Territories would be difficult to do at this point. But, it is goal we are still working towards.

In terms of the garments, during my opening remarks, I handed out samples of work that is currently being done. I believe this is an area that the department started working on, using seals, which was probably the hardest hit in terms of wild fur. It is an area the department thought best to start on. I think we will continue to work, not only with sealskin, but other types of fur as well. So, it will not be limited to one area of the Northwest Territories. I hope, in conjunction with the Department of Economic Development and Tourism, we will be able to work with other areas of the Northwest Territories over the next few years.

In terms of the lynx being caught live, I asked my deputy Minister and staff here with me about that and, because this happened a number of years ago, we weren't able to determine exactly what the reason for catching live lynx was. What we know at this point is that they weren't going to be sent to farms because we don't know of any lynx farms anywhere in Canada. That's as much as we know at this point, but I'd be willing to find out exactly what took place. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.