Good morning. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I travel in the Northwest Territories, I am continually impressed by the commitment northerners have to education. This past weekend, I travelled to the Sahtu, with the Honourable Stephen Kakfwi, and learned a good deal about education in that region.

Today I would like to congratulate the people of Fort Good Hope for the way they have supported the grade 10 program, which began in that community this year. The school anticipated 18 students would enrol, but 47 are now in the program. They vary widely in age, but all of the students want to successfully complete their senior high school education. I am sure other communities in the Sahtu will soon follow this direction, and will want to offer senior high programs in their own communities.

The Sahtu Divisional Board of Education is currently developing a strategic plan, to guide the direction of education in the coming years. I would also like to congratulate the board for its work in this area, particularly in consulting closely with band councils, hamlet councils, and members of the public. This type of consultation is very important, if the educational system is to continue to meet the educational needs of the people in the region.

Mr. Speaker, while Mr. Kakfwi and I were in the region, we visited Fort Franklin, Fort Norman, Norman Wells and Fort Good Hope. In each community we held meetings with the community education council, the band council, and the hamlet representatives. We were extremely pleased with the good turn out for each of those meetings, and the discussions we had on education issues.

Mr. Speaker, during the coming weeks and months, I look forward to more opportunities to visit other constituencies, in the Northwest Territories, to discuss educational issues. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements. Mr. Antoine.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Later on this morning I will be travelling to Fort Simpson to attend the Community Justice Forum that has been going on for the last two days. Today will be the last day. Later on in the day, in the committee of the whole, we will be talking about the budget of Economic Development and Tourism.

I would like to say something about the economic development in the Deh Cho region, and Nahendeh constituency of six communities. The people in the communities, every time I travel to the communities, are very interested in the whole area of economic development. They feel that they have been left out, up to this point, and they would like to be more involved with that.

I would like to urge the Department of Economic Development and Tourism, to concentrate more on the smaller communities and change their attitude towards people, so that the people in communities have the opportunity to be provided with programs and services from this department. I, also, would like to let the House know, that the Deh Cho Tribal Council has, for one and a half months now, hired an economic development coordinator to help the communities in the Deh Cho region. Their approach is a community-based approach to people in communities, what they want. This coordinator will help coordinate, and the idea is that they could work with the Department of Economic Development and Tourism to help these communities. This is the peoples' way to tell the government that they are very interested in economic development, and they are doing something about it, themselves, by hiring a coordinator. I would like to urge the Department of Personnel to work with these people so that economic development would happen in these communities. Mahsi Cho.

Members' statements. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I was intending to rise on a Point of Privilege, however, I believe my remarks go beyond, just the matter of privilege, with regard to an article that was in the Yellowknifer, under the editorial "Parliamentary Fun and Games" which suggests that the issues raised by Members are of no concern to our constituents.

To be more specific, Mr. Speaker, I want to address comments in the article related to a written question that I posed to the Government Leader. Mr. Speaker, the article suggests that this is an issue of fun and games. I would say it is too bad that the writer did not speak to my constituents in Arctic Red River, or within my constituency, who were, and have been, asked to pay as much as $17,000 to have power poles moved from lots for which they applied.

Mr. Speaker, more importantly my constituents and those who have been asked to pay these exorbitant costs do not believe this to be frivolous, or fun and games. Mr. Speaker, in fact, the individual in one case applied for a new lot rather than being forced to pay these costs.

I want the writer to understand the same situation occurred as recently as last weekend, in Mr. Todd's constituency, in fact, where a private business owner had to move power poles at their own cost and pay the cost for hook-ups for electricity.

Maybe these are normal situations, and accepted arrangements, but I have been told that the N.W.T. Power Corporation has assumed in several instances total cost in the constituency of Nunakput.

Mr. Speaker, I ask, is this fair, or is it the truth? If it is true, then why does this policy, or situation, exist in Nunakput, and not in any other constituency? Further, if it is incorrect then this is where it ends. If not, you can be assured that Members of this Assembly will want to know why this type of preference is given in the Government Leader's constituency.

I know, Mr. Speaker, my constituents will thank me for raising these concerns on their behalf. More so, Mr. Speaker, all the people of the N.W.T., including residents of Yellowknife...

Mr. Nerysoo, the allotted time has elapsed.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to conclude my Member's statement.

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, colleagues. I know, Mr. Speaker, my constituents will thank me for raising these concerns on their behalf. More so, Mr. Speaker, all people of the Northwest Territories, including the residents of Yellowknife, will agree with my concern that any unfair application of policy has to be accounted for.

Financial expenditures without authorization are not acceptable by residents of the Northwest Territories, or in Yellowknife. It may not be important in Yellowknife, but then who does the Yellowknifer speak for, or account to? Mr. Speaker, unlike the media I am accountable to an electorate. The media, and should I be more specific, the Yellowknifer, can say what they want, publicly harm peoples' reputations, or impute motives without accountability, and never lose an argument.

Mr. Speaker, the editors, the writers and owners of the Yellowknifer, in my personal view, do not accept that Members may at times show their humanity or human faults. They are probably perfect, which I can say, I am not. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Kakfwi.

Returns to oral questions. Mr. Arvaluk.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is a return to an oral question asked by Mr. Lewis on September 29, 1992. Student loans are not written off because of student requests. Only loans which are considered impossible, or uneconomical to collect, are recommended to be written off. The purpose of writing off loan accounts is to recognize, on the financial statements, that these accounts are extremely unlikely to be collected.

Loans are recommended to be written off after all means of collection are exhausted, including the use of the courts and collection agencies. However, when loans are written off these loans are still considered outstanding debts. If a loan which has been written off later becomes collectible, it can be collected by government. Thank you.

Returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions. Mr. Nerysoo.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he could confirm whether or not he and his public administrator at the Fort Smith Health Centre have been named co-defendants in a court case he referred to on September 10?

Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes. Thank you.

Oral questions. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question will be directed to the Minister of Health. Mr. Minister, a concern was brought to my attention by one of the community health representatives in the region of Kitikmeot in regards to the apparent lack of recognition for our community health representative. The community health representative plays a very important role in promoting health in the community. The community health representative feels that he was not being recognized as a professional at the community level by this government.

My question, Mr. Speaker, does the Department of Health have a job description in place for the C.H.R.? Thank you.

Mr. Patterson.

Well, I would expect so, Mr. Speaker. I cannot say that I know for sure, so I had better take it as notice. Thank you.

Question has been taken as notice. Oral questions. Item 6, written questions. Item 7, returns to written questions. Item 8, replies to opening address. Mr. Lewis.

I am just trying to put a few notes here together, Mr. Speaker, but I promise to be very brief because we have lots of business to do. I have made it my priority that during the time that I am elected I will use every opportunity to respond to the issues on the order paper, including the budget address, and also the reply to the Commissioner.

Mr. Speaker, first of all, just to remind ourselves that this Assembly has been in operation for practically a year. It has probably been the busiest year of any Assembly, ever. If you look at the calendar, that has been distributed to Members, you will find that there is very little room on it for doing all of the things that people normally like to do in the so-called free time, because there is not much free time any more. The candour is crowded with committee work to such an extent, Mr. Speaker, that many of the committees of this House have reached the stature almost of the Executive Committee, and the Executive Committee is just one of the committees of this House. That is the way things are beginning to look, as I see the kind of work that goes on among ordinary Members. The major frustration for many of us, Mr. Speaker, is that the government is taking an awful long time to develop a budget. That has frustrated some people, because usually a budget gives you some indication of the kind of priorities that we can expect to follow over the next four years, one year at a time, this gives you a glimpse as to the thinking of the people we have chosen to be our Executive Committee.

Mr. Speaker, the new budget cycle should require a change to the N.W.T. Act, so that the Assembly could be dissolved in time for a spring election rather than an fall election. This would allow the government time during the summer to prepare its budget in time for the Standing Committee on Finance to review it in the fall, and for the Assembly to examine it during the winter session.

Now, the system is out of kilter with our election dates, and we do not have the flexibility that other Legislatures have throughout this country to decide how it should conduct its business. As one step forward, if you like, in the evolution to have responsible government we should ask that change be made so that we can in fact set our date rather than be bound by the act which tells us we have to have a fall election.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, the debate on the effectiveness on consensus government continues. I am not convinced that after more than four years, nearly five now, that it is any worse, or any better, than other democratic systems based on political party affiliations. I believe it is grossly unfair, however, that our own legislation does not allow for political parties to support candidates in elections. One day, and I do not know how soon it will be, Mr. Speaker, only men and women who can afford to lose $20,000 will be able to afford to run in an election.

Our act should be changed, in my opinion, to allow political parties to be formed and to have the right to association because in this country it is a basic human right. The right of association is basic, and currently in our system, although you have the right to do something in the sense that you can associate, there is no point in doing it if you cannot follow your mandate. In other words, you cannot help anybody so what is the point of forming?

I believe, although it may not be followed that right should exist here in the territories as it does for all Canadians. Whether people pursue it is another issue. They should be given the right to support candidates if they wish, and it will be up to the public to decide whether that is the way they want to go.

Mr. Speaker, to turn from the Assembly to the government, I believe that one of the problems we have had to face over the last year is that our government is taking the position that the famous Strength of Two Levels Report should be the basis of where we spend our time, resources, energy, and so on.

In my opinion, when this work was undertaken, it was supposed to be a long range plan, and yet what I have seen happen in the public service is that they have tried to make large structural changes very quickly and it absorbs all the interest and all the resources of government to do something which can only be done over a period of time. I know governments like to put their stamp on things by doing it quickly, the first hundred days of action, and so on. That is

okay if you are talking about programs, and you want things to be done, but when you are talking about fundamental change, that cannot happen in a democratic society in the same way that you can achieve fast program changes. So, my suggestion is that by navel-gazing, because that is what it has amounted to, it has been very difficult for the government to give a sense of focus of where it is going in terms of delivery of programs.

It has not been looking outward, it has been looking inward, and my guess is that by looking inwardly, it has caused some degree of dissatisfaction. It gives the impression that the government lacks focus.

The major problem is not the structure of government, Mr. Speaker, but how, in fact, that direction is given. The public service will not be effective if it does not have a sense of where things are going. It seems to be continually changing. This will continue as long as the government invents its mandate as it moves along, and, of course, in our consensus government, it has always been pushed this way and that way by the Members on this side. So one day what may have been okay, suddenly is not okay, because there is a bunch of people telling the Executive Council that is not the way they want to go. Therefore, it is very, very difficult for people in the public service to have a sense of confidence that this is the path and it will forever shine, so we will follow it.

The next problem I see is that there is no bottom-line in government, because we all know, Mr. Speaker, that it is very difficult to measure the effectiveness of what governments do. It is even more difficult when this identification of what it does, changes all the time. So first of all you have the problem of how you deal with effectiveness when there is no bottom line, for instance, what is the product, what are you trying to achieve? It is even more difficult when that objective seems to be changing all the time.

My own guess, Mr. Speaker, is that you can judge how effective things are, by not just the calibre of the people that you have invited to join your public service, but how they feel about going to work everyday. I worked in the government for many, many years, and came to the conclusion that all these forms you filled in, where you had to assess performance, and you went through all these wonderful complicated measures, that the best guide is how well the government was, to figure out whether people wanted to go to work everyday, they were contented to come to work, and they were keen and eager. When you see people dragging you know that things are not good, and that is what I sense now.

I promised to be brief, Mr. Speaker, and I just want to raise three points which I have done before. When we look at the overall sense of direction of development of our government, it seems to me that there are three key features. First of all, investment, and money. What money is floating around there to get things done that you would like to have done. We have not been successful, in my opinion, in doing very much on the revenue side of things and that has to improve. There are kinds of ways in which we could do a lot better job in developing this other economy, which we talk about and never really are very successful. We are very, very good at spending the money we get, we are wonderful at it, but we are never very good at figuring out ways in which we can generate wealth because unless you do that, it is going to be very difficult for us to become independent of the public purse.

So my suggestion, Mr. Speaker, is that unless we get investment, I am talking about investment in the sense of a private sector, then we are not going to develop as a territory that the rest of the country is going to have much confidence in.

To do that, you are going to have to provide, and this is the second point I wanted to make, better infrastructure. We have talked in the past about roads, and so on, and my guess is if we do something of improving the basic infrastructure, it will become more attractive for people to invest in the Northwest Territories. Things like roads, for example, will happen if the government makes some commitments, so that investors will feel that the money that they place here is going to be used to develop the kinds of resources we have.

On a personal note, Mr. Speaker, I was not going to say this today, but when we had to make a decision, a year ago, about the kind of leader that we should have, I had a terrible time, and I normally do not agonize about what we should do. Eventually, I decided not to support Nellie Cournoyea even though I have a tremendous admiration for her. I believe that economic development in our system does not just depend on the non-renewable sector, and I looked at her career, and said, "this person is really committed to that kind of development." It is my own view that kind of development would take place when the conditions are right. When the markets are right, the price of metals, or oils are right. Then those outfits that do that kind of work, can gobble up governments like this, just at breakfast time. We are nothing, if the markets are there, then those pipelines and everything else will be built, come hell or high water, and what we say is not going to make much difference.

I do agree though, with the view that having that kind of infrastructure in place, and having revenues coming in, in the long run, is to the advantage of our government. It give our government a sense of independence. The basic psychological problem is the not the independence of our government it is the independence of our people. The fact that the people know that they can get jobs that are going to last, not just beyond the boom, but will last for a long time in the future. Unless we can find a solution to that, we are not going to be successful in having a really independent population who know that the wealth that is generated will result in jobs, work for them, and for their communities.

It is on the basis of that, the Beaufort and the Mackenzie Valley, and that is the be all and the end all. It may gives us the revenue for our government but that is going to happen anyway, when the conditions are right. The biggest problem that we face in economic terms, is to resolve our internal differences politically and constitutionally to try to find ways of getting wealth invested on the basis of renewable resources. The third thing is to find ways of really improving the ability of our people to take advantage of opportunities that come our way.

I want to say that in addition to infrastructure and investment, we have to find better ways of making our people stronger, healthier, better educated, so that they could have that drive to take advantage of the opportunities that will come our way.

Those three things are the key to the development of our economy, and the keys to our future. On that note, Mr. Speaker, I will sit down, but I would like to tell Madam Premier that I have tremendous confidence in her and I just do not do things under the table. I am blunt and straight out about the way I feel about things. We have to solve this problem of dependence on government if we are going to get anywhere. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Lewis. Replies to opening address. Item 9, petitions. Item 10, reports of standing and special committees. Mr. Ningark.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will be presenting a report by the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. Mr. Gargan will complete the report on the behalf of the standing committee.

Mr. Speaker, your Standing Committee on Public Accounts has the honour of presenting the follow-up report on its review of the financial statements of the government of the Northwest Territories, and the report of the Auditor General for Canada for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1991.

Part one, introduction. In the Committee Report 13-12(2), tabled on June 25, 1992, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts indicated its intent to meet more frequently and to follow-up on the departmental commitments to take corrective action. With these stated intentions in mind the Standing Committee on Public Accounts has held a series of meetings to follow-up on the key recommendations and directions for the Report of the Auditor General On Other Matters.

Many of these were initially outlined in the standing committee's June report. The common report comments on outstanding issues relative to the Department of Health, the Department of Finance, and the Department of Justice, which have now been reviewed in additional detail.

The standing committee has always appreciated the assistance of the office of the Auditor General of Canada, and acknowledges the particular contribution of Mr. Dubois, Mr. R. Simpson, and Mr. Shier.

Part two, the committee's activity. Earlier public hearings held by the Standing Committee on Public Accounts in April and June, 1992, have been summarized in the previous report. To follow-up on certain matters raised at that time subsequent public hearings were held for Health on August 10, 1992. At that time, the following witnesses appeared: the Department of Health, Dr. Kinloch, Acting Deputy Minister of Health; Mr. D. Bower, Director of Finance and Administration; Department of Finance, Mr. E. Nielsen, Deputy Minister of Finance; and, Department of Justice, Mr. G. Bickert, Deputy Minister of Justice.

In addition, the standing committee held planning sessions from August 11 to 13, 1992, and items included debriefing on public hearings held August 10, as well as discussion about the reporting framework and priorities for the views for consideration. Formal work plan for the future time of the review projects will be finalized and reported to the House at a later.

The standing committee met on September 14, 1992, to review the briefings from the Comptroller General and the Director of Government Accounting with respect to the public accounts appropriation schedule. The committee met again on September 21, 1992, to review for the briefing from the Deputy Minister of Justice with respect to administrative aspects of the legal aid system.

The Standing Committee on Public Accounts wishes to express its appreciation for all government officials who attended these meetings and hearings.

I will now ask the honourable Mr. Gargan to continue. Thank you.

Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Part three, the health billing dispute.

The Report of the Auditor General On Other Matters for the year ending March 31, 1991, made notes of this dispute between the government of the Northwest Territories, the federal government, and D.I.A.N.D., over health care billing.

The amounts owing to the government of the Northwest Territories by the federal government have continued to increase and the reconciliation of the dispute to negotiate has not been possible. Correspondence has been exchanged for several months between the government and the federal government. Meetings have taken place between Ministers and senior officials involved.

In the budget address on August 10, 1992, the Honourable John Pollard assured, in the Legislative Assembly, that he had written to the federal Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development to indicate that the government of the Northwest Territories would file court papers by today of this year.

In Committee Report 13-12(2), the Standing Committee on Public Accounts clearly indicated its position that government must keep the Legislative Assembly informed, through regular briefings about the progress of negotiations with D.I.A.N.D., and that they should tell the Assembly how the success, or failure, of the negotiation is affecting the governments overall financial situation.

Since that time, information has been forthcoming from the government when its officials have appeared before the standing committee at success of public hearings. Officials have also submitted detailed accounts of the negotiation process.

The standing committee takes the position that, just as it was important for the government to advise the Legislative Assembly of this committees progress during the negotiation phase, regular information updates on the status of the court proceedings should also be provided.

With respect to the substance of the issue, Members of the standing committee were of the opinion that the position taken by the government of the Northwest Territories in this matter should be strongly supported in principle. Clearly, there are issues in dispute which pertain to the very core of our framework for the delivery of health care to native people in the Northwest Territories.

Indeed, from the public accounts perspective, the standing committee was concerned about the cost to the Government of the Northwest Territories for participating in the failed negotiations and impending court action. Not only in the terms of specific expenditures but in person hours devoted by senior professional staff and departmental officials.

The standing committee was of the opinion that the Government of the Northwest Territories should consider including estimates of direct and indirect costs of these negotiations with its claim. Primarily for the purpose of accountability and the internal information flow. The standing committee would suggest that, in any further negotiation of this type, the Government of the Northwest Territories should be more specific when informing the Legislative Assembly with respect to the composition and mandate of the formal negotiating team.

A chief negotiator should be designated and held accountable for results, and a proposed time frame should be announced at the outset to permit better evaluation of progress. The standing committee was also mindful that the Auditor General's report contained a reservation of opinion on the 1990-91 financial statement.

Relative to this issue, the Auditor General noted that, "We do not disagree with the calculations of the government's claim, but there is not enough audit evidence for us to conclude whether all of this money will be recovered. The government has not provided for any possible laws, as it also does not know the future outcome of its claim."

The Standing Committee on Public Accounts continues to regard the Auditor General's reservations as an extremely serious matter, and was of the opinion that the Government of the Northwest Territories must develop a plan for dealing with the issue, in its financial statement for the year ending March 31, 1992.

Ideally, this plan should be available for review at the time when audited financial statements are tabled at the end of September. The Standing Committee on Public Accounts will continue to monitor the matter as it pertains to the financial statement and fiscal position of this government.

Mr. Speaker, at this time I would like to ask Mr. Koe, to conclude the committee report.

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To continue, the public accounts report talked about some issues regarding operations in the Department of Finance, in terms of roles and responsibilities. Committee report 13-12(2) stressed the need for a full review of roles played by senior managers in terms of the responsibility for government-wide financial management.

Specifically, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts stated, "Governments should strengthen the roles and responsibilities of the deputy minister of Finance and the Comptroller General. The role of the Comptroller General should be made more independent of Finance, and the accountability of the incumbent should be spelled out more clearly. Both the deputy minister and the Comptroller General, should become more active when dealing with spending problems, and they should ensure that all departments obtain value for money."

This recommendation was carried as a committee motion in the Legislative Assembly on June 25, 1992. However, the standing committee was concerned that government response in this area has been slow. At the August 10 public hearing the Deputy Minister of Finance indicated, "I can advise you that the concerns of the committee have been, and are being, considered by the political level of the government, and that no decision has been taken as of yet. I can advise you, simply, that it is at the political level."

The Standing Committee on Public Accounts reiterates that it is important to see these roles, and responsibilities clarified and restructured to deal more effectively with the financial restraint required in our current fiscal environment.

The committee will continue to pursue this issue actively and urges the government to complete its political level review of this matter, at the earliest possible opportunity.

The government will be held accountable for its decisions in this area, based on whether it is able to structure responsibilities within the Department of Finance, in a manner which ensures a more efficient and effective management of public funds.

I would like to talk about the earlier access to unaudited financial statements. Throughout its public review process the Standing Committee on Public Accounts has been eager to access some indication of the government's financial position, prior to the tabling of the unaudited financial statements on September 30 of each year.

To this end, the committee has reviewed the schedule used by the Department of Finance, in preparing financial statements and public accounts. Discussions were held with finance officers with respect to acquiring summary information, in advance of the date required in the Financial Administration Act. These discussions are continuing and will be reported on at some time in the future.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to talk about legal aid. A number of problems were identified in the Auditor General's report with respect to program costs, and information systems within the legal aid operation of this government. The standing committee is aware that these problems are not unique to the Government of the Northwest Territories, but is concerned with the high cost of this essential program.

In seeking a solution, the standing committee noted that a number of studies and plans have already been completed at departmental request. While each of these make contributions to resolving the current financial situation, the standing committee felt strongly that there should be a single document which synthesizes the various viewpoints and provides a clear basis for planning.

The Department of Justice has provided the standing committee with a copy of its Legal Aid Action Plan which accomplishes that function. The standing committee has now reviewed that document, and has found that many of the needs outlined in the June committee report are addressed in the department's current action planning.

A note about adequate information systems. In Committee Report 13-12(2), the Standing Committee on Public Accounts made a number of recommendations, including the development of adequate information systems within the Department of Justice and the Legal Services Board. Members have been somewhat disappointed with the apparent slow progress made in this regard.

The standing committee noted that although the Legal Aid Action Plan does contain some discussion about the need for computerized information retrieval, no specific time lines have been established. It appears as though the development of the information system has been delayed as a result of difficulties encountered in recruiting for the vacant Executive Director position with the Legal Services Board.

While the standing committee has realized that input from this senior position would be beneficial in the development of a proposed information system, members wish to reinforce the earlier recommendation that these systems should be developed at the earliest possible date.

Should it not be possible to recruit an executive director within the immediate term, the department should find a strategy to nevertheless proceed with the project, without further delay.

A note about eligibility criteria, and a means test. The Auditor General's report raised questions about client eligibility, and cost recovery. Eligibility criteria for accessing legal aid, and an means test to help determine how much individual clients can afford to pay for legal aid services were considered necessary. In reviewing the departments legal aid action plan, the standing committee was pleased to note that this issue was being addressed, and that the department itself had also recognized that. The criteria for receiving legal aid is very weak, and a great deal of discretion is applied. Due to other priorities, collection is not followed up as tightly as it should be, especially for civil matters where there is a delay in settlement.

Within the plan, recommendations are included for the development and implementation of strict guidelines, perhaps by way of a regulation to deal with these issues. The Standing Committee on Public Accounts wishes to urge the department to proceed with the development of these guidelines without delay. The standing committee will continue to follow up on this issue from the perspective of the government's public accounts, and we will be seeking to review the department's action on this issue in the months to follow.

Comments about the Code of Rights. The Standing Committee on Public Accounts continues to be concerned about the fact that many residents of the Northwest Territories are not aware of their rights and obligations within the legal aid system. In committee report 13-12(2), the standing committee recommended that a simply worded Code of Rights should be drawn up and be translated into all official languages. No progress has been made on this direction to date. The standing committee is still of the opinion that it is in the public interest to provide a single document which outlines what a legal aid recipient can expect with regard to confidentiality, quality of services, recourse to appeal decisions of the Executive Director, and so on.

Indeed, it might also be advisable to indicate the obligations which perspective clients have to the system, including the responsibility to provide correct information to legal aid officials, and so on. The Department of Justice and the Legal Services Board should proceed immediately with the preparation of this document, and should be mindful that the Standing Committee will follow up on the matter at subsequent review meetings.

Motion To Receive And Adopt Committee Report 19-12(2)

Mr. Speaker, that is the end of the report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report be received and adopted by this Assembly.

Seconder to your motion, Mr. Ningark. There is no quorum. Ring the bells, please, Mr. Clerk.

Motion has been moved by Mr. Koe, seconded by Mr. Ningark. Motion is in order. All those in favour of the motion? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Reports of standing and special committees, Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a second interim report from the Special Committee on Health and Social Services. Mr. Speaker, I can indicate to you that this particular report has been translated into Inuktitut.

This report summarizes our committee's activities during the 12 weeks since our first report was tabled. It also represents our plans for the period between now, and the start of the next session of the Assembly in November.

The primary focus of our work since June, has been to orient ourselves to the priorities we identified in our last report. As a start, we have taken steps to learn from those who have already examined these issues. We have reviewed and summarized the reports of the previous special committees, and other relevant bodies. In addition, we have spoken with some of those who have been involved in these inquiries, to get their ideas about what may help ensure the effectiveness of our consultation process. Our work plans reflect their advice.

During the first week of September, we met with senior representatives of the Departments of Health and Social Services. They reviewed with us the major issues and priorities within their respective mandates, and how they see those issues best being addressed.

We also began to examine the important issue of the community transfer, by listening to people involved with their community control programs. Most of the health and social issues we face in the Northwest Territories are complex and interrelated with broader economic and political trends. To ensure that we have the comprehensive background information that we need to make effective recommendations, we will be carrying out a number of research projects.

One will be a survey of frontline workers to hear their concerns and ideas on how better to assist those in need. Others will focus on the lengths between housing and health, encouraging family and community healing, and the development of social health indicators.

We will also be examining aspects of the legislative framework in health and social services.

Mr. Speaker, our first regional consultation will take place the week of November 9 to 13 in Rankin Inlet, so as to hear the ideas of many people of the Keewatin who will be doing a number of different things. We will give workshops and public meetings, as well as make trips to various programs and services. Together with the local M.L.A.s, we will also visit one community in each constituency. We want to ensure that everyone young and old, male and female, who wishes to share his or her ideas about improving things in health and social services can do so.

As Members of this House, we are too well aware that there are many important issues that fall within the area of health and social services. The committee would like to bring the following concerns to the attention to the Members of the Assembly.

Care givers conference. Many northerners suffer physical and psychological pain. The causes are numerous and the effects are far reaching. People in pain are not well equipped to function effectively in their various roles, whether they are parents or employees. Ignoring their distress, then, carries a high price. Seeking to help them is also costly and very challenging for those helping. All too often, such care givers are overwhelmed by the number, and extent, of demands placed upon them, and they end up burning out, or are unable to continue. When this happens, the clients lose out. In fact, we all lose and we all pay the cost of both continued disfunction, and the costs of recruiting, training, and orientating a replacement care giver. These caring people who work directly with those in pain, play a pivotal role in our efforts to help them. They, in turn, need substantial personal and professional support. Too often the support is not forthcoming.

Recognizing this, a coalition of over 12 organizations concerned about the needs of victims of crime, has formed to start to do something about it. For the past two years they have been planning a gathering of care givers from across the Northwest Territories.

Seeking to plan the conference agenda, they carried out a survey of frontline care givers. They wanted to ensure that the program offered would truly meet the workers needs. Those who responded to the survey, told them exactly what they wanted. They also overwhelmingly confirmed their urgent need for the support and training such a conference could give them.

Our committee strongly supports this conference, as well as depend on having effective care givers. Unfortunately it has been delayed more than once due to shortage of funds. Thus far, only the federal government has shown considerable financial support having committed the bulk of the conference funds. Still more money is needed before all expenses can be covered. We, therefore, urge this government to clearly shows its support to our front line workers by making the necessary funds available, so that this important gathering can proceed February, without fail.

Mr. Speaker, the committee on a matter of a recommendation, the committee recommends that the Executive Council consider showing its support to the workshop and conference for care givers by providing adequate funding to permit the conference to proceed.

On the matter of the community transfer this government is in the midst of a major thrust to move decision making, and program delivery, closer to the people served. While we agree in principle with this initiative, we see problems with its implementation. There is concern that there has been a lack of meaningful consultation at the community level. This must not be a talked down process, if it is to have any chance of success. Everything must be subject to negotiation. We must not just present communities with a "menu" from which to choose. The transfer must be an open process, driven by the needs, capabilities and interests, of the community or region. We see that input from all those affected, should be encouraged, facilitated, and not restricted. The constructive and informed comments from everyone involved are necessary as the basis for good decisions.

Our discussions with people who have been involved in the successful transfer of services to communities suggests that the transfer process is crucial to the success of the resulting programs. They pointed to the need for strong broadly based grass roots support for such moves. This means listening carefully to the concerns and ideas of the community members who will receive the services under consideration, and those who deliver them as well as those of local elected officials. To ensure informed debate and discussion, we see it as being crucial to share the experiences of people in places where such a transfer has occurred, with those in communities considering such a move.

With regard to the A.I.D.S. issue, recent incidents in the Inuvik region have reminded us of a crucial issue of the spread, and reporting, of H.I.V. infection and A.I.D.S. We urge the government to continue to work with local health boards and communities to develop appropriate steps that communities can take to prevent the further spread of this deadly disease.

On the matter of the social assistance allowance, or social assistance allowance increase, we note that the recent 1992-93 budget address includes an increase of five percent for food allowances for recipients of social assistance. On the surface this appears to be a positive step, however, closer examination shows that it at best is a symbolic gesture. First, the allowance still is not enough, as a chart and table on appendix one show, clients across the Northwest Territories will now receive an allowance that averages 60 percent of what the 1991 food price survey found was the cost of purchasing a nutritious family food supply.

We wonder where social assistance clients are to get the funds to make up for the average 40 percent shortfall between what the food allowance covers and the cost of a basic diet for their families.

Second, disparities continue, across all communities. The shortfall incline food purchasing power ranges, from a low of 28 percent to a high of 51 percent. People in those communities with more developed transportation links are better off than those in more isolated ones. In a time of restraint, and at a cost of $1 million, was this "across the board" modest increase, the best option to have pursued. Our findings suggest otherwise, this increase only marginally improves the financial situation of any one family and does not address the inequities that currently exist between communities.

A more effective strategy may have been to reposition communities on the scales, based on the data from the 1991 food price survey, where a similar expenditure, substantial progress could have then been made towards reducing, if not eliminating the disparity in food allowances. Even a move such as this, however, amounts to mere tinkering with a program modeled and imported from the south that has not been very effective there, and has not been very effective here.

Our committee believes that the goal of social assistance should be to help people attain or regain their economic self-sufficiency. To be effective in that regard requires more than tinkering with the current program. A major overhaul is needed. We note that our neighbours in the Yukon have recently started a systemic review of their social assistance system. We will be consulting with them as they proceed. We also note with interest, this governments work in this area, and look forward to briefings on their progress.

As one aspect of a more integrated program, for example, we are interested in the contribution that encourages increased harvesting of country foods which could improve nutritional, and financial health of people receiving social assistance. Providing such help may prove to be more cost effective in ensuring people have nutritious food. This support could take the form of funds for the purchase supplies and equipment for hunting, or money for purchase of country foods from local H.T.A.s.

Similarly consumer education could be facilitated by encouraging the sharing among community members of expertise in the utilizations, preparation, and storage, of country foods harvested. The committee will be examining this area over the next few months to be able to make recommendations on actions the government could take in this regard.

Mr. Speaker, in conclusion as we proceed through our regional consultations and other activities in the coming months we will report on our progress and recommend actions to the Assembly on the compelling issues that we have investigated.

Motion That Committee Report 20-12(2) Be Moved Into Committee Of The Whole

Mr. Speaker, that concludes the second interim report of the Special Committee on Health and Social Services. Therefore I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake, that the second interim report of the Special Committee on Health and Social Services be received by the Assembly and moved into committee of the whole for consideration.

The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Nerysoo. Seconder, Mr. Dent. You have the opportunity to conclude debate, Mr. Nerysoo. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Committee report will be put on the orders paper tomorrow for committee of the whole. Report of standing and special committees. Item 11, reports of committees on the review of bills. Item 12, tabling of documents.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two documents I would like to table this morning. The first, Tabled Document 110-12(2), is correspondence dated September 30, 1992 from Mr. Ittinuar, President of the Inuit Cultural Institute, to myself, urging that the planning for the regional health facility proceed as soon as possible, and indicating that the institution's position is that, "All Keewatin communities support Rankin Inlet as a chosen location."

Mr. Speaker, the second Tabled Document 111-12(2) is correspondence from the President of K.I.A., dated September 30, urging the government to support the Keewatin regional health plan without delay. Thank you.

Tabling of documents. Ms. Cournoyea.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to table, Tabled Document 112-12(2), in response to written question 59-12(2), actions taken by the Government of the Northwest Territories regarding the labour dispute at Royal Oak Giant Mine. As well, I would like to table, Tabled Document 113-12(2), a document, pursuant to section 51(4) of the Financial Administration Act, the interim financial report of the Northwest Territories for the year ended March 31, 1992.

Tabling of documents. Item 13, notices of motion. Item 14, notices of motions for first reading of bills. Item 15, motions. Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

WHEREAS a proposed private Member's bill, which would amend the Liquor Act, to allow for the establishment of breweries in the Northwest Territories, was tabled on September 29, 1992;

AND WHEREAS this session of the Legislative Assembly is due to prorogue when the business is concluded;

AND WHEREAS it is important to permit public discussion on this proposed amendment to the Liquor Act;

NOW THEREFORE I MOVE, seconded by the honourable Member for Yellowknife Frame Lake, that tabled document 100-12(2), a proposed private Member's public bill to amend the Liquor Act, be referred to the Standing Committee on Legislation for review. Thank you.

Your motion is in order, Mr. Lewis. To the motion. Question has been called. Seconder to the motion? Mr. Lewis has the opportunity to conclude debate. Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Tabled Document 10-12(2), proposed private Member's public bill, will be referred to the Standing Committee on Legislation. Motions. Item 16, first reading of bills. Item 17, second reading of bills. Item 18, consideration in committee of the whole of bills and other matters: Tabled Document 9-12(2), Strength at Two Levels; Tabled Document 10-12(2), Reshaping Northern Government; Tabled Document 62-12(2), Report on Northwest Territories Operations at Expo '92 as at May 31, 1992; Tabled Document 66-12(2), "Working Toward a Common Future" Commission for Constitutional Development; Tabled Document 70-12(2), "The Justice House" Report of the Special Advisor on Gender Equality; Motion 6, Discussion on "Sobriety Clause in Contribution Agreements"; Committee Report 17-12(2), Report on the Review of the 1992-93 Main Estimates; Bill 33, Appropriation Act No. 2, 1992-93, with Mr. Ningark in the Chair.

Thank you. The committee will now come to order. Yesterday, we were discussing the Department of Economic Development and Tourism. We were on general comments. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Nerysoo.

We are going to introduce a motion accepting the budget. No.

---Laughter

You missed that, if you had heard that, Ms. Cournoyea, you would have been supporting it. However, Mr. Chairman, if I might suggest that we go back to the Department of Economic Development and Tourism and deal with the budget issue.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Since we are moving along pretty smoothly this morning we will take a fifteen minute break and come back.

---SHORT BREAK

Thank you, the committee of the whole will now come to order. We are on Economic Development and Tourism, page 17-8. General comments from the Members. Detailed, okay. Mr. Koe.

Department Of Economic Development And Tourism

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a few comments on the presentation we heard from the acting Minister yesterday. It was a package expressing all the good works that have been done by the Department of Economic Development and Tourism, and very strategic use of numbers and percentages, while trying to present a picture of what is going on in the north.

It always amazes me how the use of statistics and percentages always enhances the picture in terms of what is going on and the advantages and benefits to northerners. We are all aware that many of our industries are very small, and an extra dollar given here or there can increase percentages significantly. My concern is in terms of some of these percentages that are being used in the presentation, I have real trouble in trying to figure out what that means in real terms.

How many real dollars were given, and to what persons? It never seems to come up, the statistics as to who is receiving the dollars, where are they, and what are they doing with it. It is nice to say, a 20 percent or a 40 percent increase here and there, but in terms of realistic numbers, dollars and cents, and to whom these dollars and cents are going, and what they are being used for, it would be nice to find out what is happening in our communities with our smaller businesses.

A couple other comments in terms of renewable resource development. There has been a lot of activity being done by the department in this area. My concern is how much is being done in cooperation with other departments. Again, it always seems like one department tends to work in isolation of another, and I know that there has been some coordination. but I can never get a handle on what Economic Development is doing, what Renewable Resources is doing, or what are the federal departments that are involved doing in terms of, say, fisheries?

So these are just some general comments on the statements made yesterday. I am just trying to find the percentages here, but I have other comments I will make under the various activities, my general impression of the statement, and now I will let someone else speak. Merci.

Thank you. General comments. Detail, economic development and tourism, directorate, O and M $2.532 million. Agreed?

Agreed.

Mahsi. Mr. Todd, I see you have your hand up. Go ahead, Mr. Todd.

My little lady, can we get the Minister to sit over here and have the witness here so we can ask some questions, Mr. Chairman?

Do we agree that Madam Premier will bring the witnesses in on behalf of economic development? Agreed?

Agreed.

Proceed, Madam Minister. Madam Premier, for the record, would you introduce your handsome witnesses?

Mr. Chairman, the acting Deputy Minister, Alan Vaughan, and the Director of Finance, Jim Kennedy.

Thank you. Back to general comments, Mr. Todd. Directorate, Mr. Todd.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Actually, I would like clarification on behalf of my colleague, Mr. Antoine, and it is in the definitive objectives on page 17-5, the second paragraph is to assist the development of packaged tours from Nahanni Ram, a northwest passage destination in conjunction with two operators. I wonder if the Minister could put on record exactly what this means, who is involved, and what kind of local involvement there is? Has this being done in conjunction with external operators, has a consultation taken place with the community of Nahanni Butte, etc.? This is just on behalf of my colleague, Mr. Antoine.

Thank you. On the directorate, Madam Premier.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would like to assure the Member that yes, there is involvement. The idea is to establish a data base system of lodges and outfitters to enforce licensing and regulations, to assist in developing package tours for the Nahanni Ram and northwest passage destinations, and to complete interior exhibits for the visitor's centre in Baker Lake and Arviat.

Directorate, a total O and M of $2 million. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Madam Premier.

Yes, I believe the Minister had made a commitment to make that available, and we will made it available to the Members.

Thank you. Detail directorate, total O and M of $2.532 million.

Agreed.

Thank you. Next page, policy and planning. Total O and M of $673,000.

Agreed.

Correction. $678,000. Now, over the page. Page 17. Mr. Koe.

Just a question, or I need some clarification. Where are the costs pertaining to Expo operations reflected, which activity?

Thank you. Madam Premier.

When we get to the section that identifies revolving funds, that is where it would be.

Thank you for the clarification. Mr. Koe, policy and planning.

What page is that? Sorry.

Madam Premier?

Mr. Chairman, I am told that the actual revolving fund does not show up in here. It is in legislation, but if the Member is interested in asking questions, the closest appropriate area is in the business development area when we come to that.

Thank you. Over to page 17-10. Tourism and parks. Mr. Koe, I see you have your hand up.

Items or questions pertaining to business development fund, would that also be under the business development activity?

Madam Premier.

Yes, you can take that up in that section.

Thank you. Mr. Dent, you have your hand up. Thank you. Page 17-10, tourism and parks. Total O and M of $7.458 million. Agreed?

Agreed.

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Just a quick question. In terms of tourism and parks, what are the current roles of the Regional Visitor's Association in the planning and development of tourism activities within the specific regions? The visitor's associations, what are their current roles, and how does the department sponsor them?

Mahsi. Madam Premier.

Yes, I will ask the acting Deputy Minister Alan Vaughan, if he would respond to that.

Mr. Vaughan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The travel associations hand in a work plan annually to talk about the things that they would like to do during the year with the department, and through that process, they become involved in terms of influencing department activities.

Thank you. Tourism and parks, Mr. Koe.

So, contributions are made through the department to specific visitor's associations, or through the N.W.T. Tourism Association?

Madam Premier.

Mr. Chairman, directly to the specific associations.

Thank you. Tourism and parks total O and M of $7.458 million.

Agreed.

Thank you. Next page. Business development. Total O and M of $12.724 million. Agreed?

Agreed.

Mr. Koe.

A couple of comments here on the business development section. In yesterday's speech, the Minister talked about the Business Development Fund, I noted the general comments about percentages, and one of the paragraphs reads, "Since the new policy was introduced, approvals in level III communities have increased 76 percent, and those in level II have increased 13 percent, with an estimated 60 percent being for aboriginal businesses."

My concern is that it is nice to use percentages, but it would have been nicer to have the actual dollars, and maybe in some form later, to provide the information, because if you give somebody $10.00, and tomorrow $7.50, that is a 76 percent increase. I do not know what magnitude of dollars we are talking about in these instances. I just wanted to make that comment.

Madam Premier. No question. Mr. Dent.

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Business development fund. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I might make two comments, I do not know if the Minister necessarily has to answer them, as opposed to maybe taking them as suggestions, more than anything else.

There has been, in some of the communities a concern about the development of arts or crafts, because number one, materials, is one issue and secondly, because buildings have not been established to accommodate the development of those products. I just want to ask the Minister, or the Government Leader, who is the acting Minister at this time, and the department, to review this situation and consider how we might be able to assist the communities in finding locations or purchasing bulk material, so they can, in fact, accommodate the requests that have been made in some communities.

I can say to you, in the case of being part of a community on the Dempster, that there was a desire for products, but we did not have them purchased, or the people did not have the materials to meet the market. I would ask you to maybe review that situation, and see how we might be able to address it in the short and the long-term.

Secondly, one other aspect that I know probably could have been dealt with under directorate, but I wanted to deal with it here, that is the matter of taxation. I know that it will be dealt with by Mr. Pollard, if he returns, or by yourself, Ms. Cournoyea, but the matter of taxation is pretty important in terms of ensuring that there is long-term viability for businesses in the community. I would ask in developing new businesses that you look at the consequences of new taxes and/or requirements to pay back the government.

I say that because if our intention is to improve the economy in the north, then we have to ensure that there is viability for the businesses that we put money into and encourage the establishment of them in and throughout the Northwest Territories. I just wanted to make that comments, and you can take it as maybe advice and review the situation, not necessarily today, but on an ongoing basis.

Thank you. Member for Keewatin central.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Member for Natilikmiot.

---Laughter

I guess the concern that I would have, and it is something that we have spoken about before, with respect to

the Business Loan Fund, or the Business Credit Corporation, as it is now called. I think there is a feeling, certainly amongst the standing committee, and I know at a personal level, that this Business Credit Corporation should really be at arms length.

It should not be necessarily Chaired by a bureaucrat, as it currently is. I think it not only has to be seen as independent, and the control the government has is through its board of director appointees, it all has to be appointed by the Minister, anyway, and the same with its chairmanship.

While I appreciate, and I did say yesterday that I commended the department and the increased loan authority at the regional level, I still do not think it is satisfactory. $50,000 really cannot do a heck of a lot, if you look at it in quantitative terms, and the cost of doing business in some of these Arctic communities.

While I applaud you for moving in that direction, and actually giving the authority to the regional superintendents, I understand, without having to say "please" to Yellowknife, I am not sure that $50,000 goes a long way in today's world when you are trying to develop a small business.

Two things, on the loan board, Mr. Chairman. I would like to see an acceleration of it becoming more independent. I certainly want to see the Chair being a non-bureaucrat, because I think there is a sense of fairness then, an appearance of fairness, and there may be no political intervention, say, if it is bureaucrat reporting to the Minister. I would think that it would be in the best interest, frankly, of the Minister for that to happen.

I would also like to say that we need to clearly, again, in my opinion, increase the level of authority at the regional level. The frustration is felt by a lot of people, in my opinion, is that it is the small loans, it is up to the $75,000 or $100,000 loans, you hear every time you turn around.

A guy is trying to get a boat, it takes so long, by the time they get the boat, the ice is in, so you have lost a year. We have all got horror stories, and we have also got stories of success that the former Deputy Minister had alluded to when he defended the department in the committee.

I have the belief that if you expand the authority at the regional level, the real authority, where the guy can say, yes, this is good, I believe that things will run a lot smoother, and then we will get the statement which say the ones who care, rather than the ones who do not.

On natural resources, I think we have some exciting prospects out there in terms of the fishery. Of course, my friend from Pangnirtung has spoken eloquently about that. It is my understanding that in the project over in Cumberland Sound, there is somewhere around 20 to 30 people employed in that fishery. I think we should see an expansion in that.

I know that some of that is currently being done by the E.D.A. in terms of the research, and if we are fortunate enough, and I hope we are fortunate enough, to find sufficient fish resources, then I think the department has got to be ready to gear up, because it does provide a significant employment component to people who want to earn a living in a somewhat traditional manner.

My third point, if I may, is in the business services task summary, and that is with respect to the S.T.E.P. program. I had spoken to the Government Leader earlier about this. The S.T.E.P. program provides money to do community-based employment programs. The department has cut it significantly, and we spoke about it yesterday.

We need to, I have said on a number of occasions prior to being elected, and now that I have been elected, develop programs that are going to provide employment opportunities for a number of people who are on social assistance, or cannot get into the government. This will, at least, provide them with sufficient employment opportunities that they can then seek, as every other Canadian does, access to the Unemployment Insurance Act.

The S.T.E.P. program, while it has small dollars in it, $846,000 last year, is one example where that could take place. I think, you have to develop your fishery the same way, rather than paying a person per pound for fish, we should be paying them, hypothetically let us say, a fishermen comes in, he has one hundred pounds of fish, he gets a dollar a pound, he has $100.00. We should develop, as we did in the old days, not that long ago, in the early 1970s, these impressed accounts at the community levels, where you would then provide him with a pay cheque, take the appropriate deductions, and 10 or 12 weeks down the road these people would then be able to access legitimately, unemployment insurance programs.

We have to think a little more creatively in terms of the way in which we do these programs. We have to look beyond the budget. We have to look at how can we tag people on to another program that is going to make them feel good about themselves, continue to pay their rent, and feed their families. I think this department has an equal responsibility, as other departments, and they should be looking at it. When they look at there fishery and there arts and crafts, they should be looking at those kinds of fundamental changes.

Thank you.

Thank you. Madam Premier.

Mr. Chairman, just for the record, the Minister responsible for Economic Development did make a commitment to look at increased authority at the regional level. In regards to the fishery, I think that the ongoing support from the Minister of Economic Development is certainly there.

On the S.T.E.P. program, that has been referred to the Department of Education, so official change has already taken place. As for the Business Credit Corporation, and the Standing Committee on Finance's very strong recommendation to make it arms length, I believe the Minister, Mr. Pollard, has made a commitment to move in that area as quick as possible, and also to replace the Chairman with an independent Chairman, as was suggested. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Premier. Business development. Mr. Koe.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can someone tell me where the cost of operating, managing and running the Expo '92 operations are recorded in this budget.

Thank you, Mr. Koe. Madam Premier.

Mr. Chairman, I am informed that if there is a profit or a loss, it would come under this section, business development. In this section here, however, there is a revolving fund that is a separate entity on how Expo was taken care of, in terms of their expenditures today, and the reporting nature of that particular fund. The Department of

Economic Development would have to report under the act. I would assume that now is the time to bring it up, because it is closest to the particular activity mandate of this section of Economic Development for the revolving fund.

Thank you. Business development, total O and M. Mr. Koe.

Mahsi, there is no reference anywhere in this budget, under this section, to the revolving fund or to any of the expenditures or revenues from the operations. I am really curious if there is a separate entity called the revolving fund. Can we get documentation on that? Do you have documentation?

Thank you. Madam Premier.

Mr. Chairman, statements have been tabled monthly in this House regarding that revolving fund. The revolving fund is a separate piece of legislation, and we can provide additional information as well.

Thank you. Business development, total O and M of $12,724 million. Mr. Koe.