I appreciate your concerns about dealing with these issues as a community, as opposed to dealing with them as either male or female issues. One of the things that I have tried to emphasize in the report is why some of the issues that were raised may particularly affect women, particularly the issues surrounding domestic and sexual violence. These issues must be addressed in a larger context. By that I mean not only in the larger context of the administration of justice but in the larger societal context. I do agree that men are indicating concern to a greater degree, and in the situations you referred to within your communities and your culture, they have participated and carried concerns about the health of the community and the members in it. It is not a concern which is borne only by women. I will reiterate my comments, though, that many of the issues that have been raised do particularly affect women. How the court system and the administration of justice deals with some of these issues, and how that system is the product of a western-European philosophy, as opposed to a philosophy that has input from aboriginal people or input from women, is a matter of grave concern.

When we were conducting public meetings in the communities, many members came out and said that one of the difficulties they have with the court system is that they do not understand it very well. Our discussions often indicated that not only did people have difficulty with the administration of justice because they did not understand it very well, indeed, how could they understand a system that is not conducted in their language and that is foreign to their culture, but that this system does not reflect many of the values that are maintained by people who live in this jurisdiction, be they men or women.

One of the things that the report tries to emphasize is, as with issues of aboriginal culture which have a very important role to play in how we develop the administration of justice in this jurisdiction, so too do women have a culture as bearers of children and as nurturers of families. Their very gender brings with them a culture. Our administration of justice must start to recognize cultures, be they women's cultures or aboriginal cultures, that extend beyond that of white Anglo-Saxon males. It must do this in order to properly serve the needs of people in this jurisdiction. The report emphasizes the perspective of women and the culture of women because that was what I was asked to do. That is the question I was asked to examine. Your comments, with respect to those concerns applying in a broader context to aboriginal people are very well taken. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any further general comments? Ms. Mike.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much for your reply, Ms. Peterson. You are right, it is a broader issue. That is my exact point. I think, as a Member of the Standing Committee on Finance, I pushed this government to place a program for male offenders. We have nothing in place, within this government, to help out part of the problem in this society. We have good programs for women; we have shelters. I also know that sometimes the domestic problems arise because of the women. By that, I mean that, when a woman has experienced a sexual assault in her past, prior to entering into her present relationship, this sometimes leads to the husband being violent because of what she has experienced in the past. It is not because the husband is violent. I think this is the wide and complex issue which this government should to addressing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Are there any other comments? Mr. Koe.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I to would like to express my appreciation to Katherine and her team and all of the participants from across the north who helped develop this report. They did not only receive input from women. I sat in a public meeting in Inuvik and there were other men there, and I assume there were other men in the meetings across the north. I would like to express my personal support and pledge to contribute in whatever small way I can in this House, and wherever I am, in trying to resolve and deal with these issues.

A couple of weeks ago, with my colleague for Natilikmiot, I visited his home community of Repulse Bay and we held public meetings on health and social services issues. In my region there has been a rash of court cases regarding violence and sexual abuse. I find that there is a real cry for help in terms of counselling services for youth, the aged, the handicapped, family violence abusers and victims and for alcohol and drug abusers. Obviously, they are all inter-related. Our communities are small and our populations have to mix and inter-relate to survive in the type of environment in which we live and work.

Communities do need these support groups and we have to work very hard to develop programs and make sure that there is money or professional assistance to help train and develop counsellors. A point that has been mentioned several times is the use of aboriginal justice methods. These initiatives are being taken by the Gwich'in, in terms of forming a community justice society, based on what they are doing in the Yukon. There are also other models in existence. Also, the use of elders as counsellors came out loud and clear in Repulse Bay and Rankin Inlet. The elders are there and they are begging to be used yet something has happened between our generation and theirs. We are missing a link and not going to them as often as we should. I feel that with help to assist the elders in being more pro-active and assisting everybody else in being pro-active is the way to make that linkage. The report is a start. It is a summary of issues and concerns that were raised from people across the north. The only direction we can go is forward. We are all working to make life better, healthier and safer for all our residents. Thank you.

Thank you. Does Ms. Peterson want to respond?

Mr. Koe, thank you for your remarks. I recall your presence at our meetings in Inuvik. You will have, through your presence there, gained some flavour of what we were trying to accomplish. With no disrespect to any of the Members in this House, you have indicated your support for the seriousness of the issues that are raised in this report. I encourage you to remember that actions speak louder than words. I ask you to remember that in your deliberations over the coming months. While we may agree in principle with the words we speak, we must also act out that agreement in the initiatives and the steps that we take to ensure that all people in this jurisdiction are accorded the respect and the value that they deserve.

Thank you. General comments, Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to congratulate Ms. Peterson and all the contributors for a very good, thoughtful and clear report. I want also to commend the Minister of Justice for initiating this presentation in the Committee of the Whole. It is extremely important that we demonstrate to the public amidst all the other pressing issues that we are dealing with, how important this issue is to this Assembly. I know that there will be support for other presentations in future on this issue. We may choose to invite Pauktuutit, the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, and the Native Women's Association to give us the benefit of their viewpoints.

Mr. Chairman, this is a difficult point for a kabloona to make. Touching on the very sensitive issue of traditional values, I know I am reflecting the views that I have heard from women in my constituency, including aboriginal women. I would like to make a small note of caution. We do not know much about the traditional values in the communities. There is an exciting project under way in Lac La Martre which we all look forward to and which will give us some real evidence gathered from elders about what those values are -- particularly in the family area.

The caution I would make is that we must recognize that even the traditional values may not always respect gender equality. We must be careful to be sensitive that some of those values may not reflect the spirit of equality that we value in the modern world. What the Members are saying about relying on those traditional values is important, but we also have to ensure that they are fair and appropriate to the modern world and the principles of equality.

That is a comment I wanted to make without taking away from what honourable Members have said about the importance of the system changing to reflect the excellent traditional values that we want to preserve. Mr. Chairman, I know that all the Members agree that this discussion of this very important issue must not end today. There is work to be done, and the Minister is committed to coming forward with an action plan. I wish to move a motion, now.

My motion is that this committee recommend that the Minister of Justice provide a response to "The Justice House" Report of the Special Advisor on Gender Equality, setting out the government's response and implementation plans for each of the recommendations contained in the report for consideration during the resumption of this Third Session of the 12th Legislative Assembly in February, 1993. Thank you.

Will this committee come back to order? Mr. Nerysoo, your amendment is in order. To the amendment.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Amendment is carried.

---Carried

Motion is amended.

Question.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have gone through the recommendations on "The Justice House". I like the recommendations that are made in there, but somehow I feel it does not go far enough. As a former chief for many years, in my community I had to deal reluctantly with the process of going through the justice system with some of my community members. I feel the same way as my colleague, Mr. Gargan, who said that this whole system has been imposed upon us within the last 400 years since Europeans came into North America. We have to live with it. Now, more attention is focused on the justice system in the north. For instance, there was a discussion of justice in the Deh Cho forum that just occurred. In there, a lot of discussion took place about justice in the community. There is a need for more review and more education funding. There were specific recommendations on how the justice system would have to change for a community. It includes some of the recommendations that were made in "The Justice House". There has never been a total review of the whole justice system in the north, let alone a review or royal commission of any kind that looked at how the justice system is imposed on aboriginal people. That is why I am saying it does not go far enough. "The Justice House" seems to open the door to that possibility in the future. I was wondering if the special advisor would make some comments on my concerns. Thank you.

Thank you. Ms. Peterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree, Mr. Antoine. There are many aspects of the report that do not

extend far into some of the concerns that you have indicated. I will also indicate to you that some of the aspects of the report and its recommendation are quite tempered. That is because I do believe that a lot of these issues should be approached as positively and constructively as possible, rather than being focused on in a negative or overly critical manner. That is not at all to say that this system ought not to be criticised; it ought to be vigorously, and the extent to which it can withstand that criticism and make changes as a result of it will show its health and well being.

I agree with your comments on the imposition of this administration and method of dispute resolution on aboriginal people. In the same fashion, this method of dispute resolution has been imposed on women. It was developed during a period of time when even western European women had no say in it. They had no vote, they had no capacity to own property, they had no capacity to speak and were, in fact, considered property themselves. So there are tremendous parallels between the interests of women generally and interest of aboriginal people, in terms of how systems that have been developed by others are imposed on them.

I can tell you, having been in Ottawa last week, the Royal Commission on Aboriginal People is seriously considering the question of justice and the administration of justice as it affects aboriginal people throughout Canada. That royal commission is grappling with some very difficult questions about separate systems of justice for aboriginal people, parallel systems, taking existing systems and moulding them or changing them to meet the needs of aboriginal people. Representatives of that royal commission will by in Yellowknife next week, and I urge you and other Members who have exhibited concerns about these issues to provide your comments to them. They have at their disposal tremendous resources to address this particular concern and I know it rests very high on their agenda. They have a large number of experts. By experts I do not necessarily mean university professors, I mean aboriginal people from various parts of the country who are providing their excellent advice and guidance to this royal commission.

To the extent that justice issues are being considered in other forms, I urge this government to take advantage of the resources that are expended elsewhere to address some of these very difficult and very important questions.

Thank you. Are there any further general comments? Mr. Gargan.

(Translation) Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. I want to say one more thing under general comments. I made similar comments about a year ago when a Member talked about the anniversary of the Montreal massacre. I believe very strongly that if we are going to look at the fact the court system is unfair to women, then we must realize that it is most unfair to aboriginal women.

Aboriginal women have to deal with two sorts of biases, first, because they are aboriginal and second, because they are women. The courts use difficult legal language which is hardest on the aboriginal women who speak English as a second language. In a confusing legal aid system and in confusing policies related to criminal injuries and compensation we are the most unfair to the aboriginal women who lack the literacy to read about them.

The bias which exists within the R.C.M.P. attachments towards aboriginal people is just as real for aboriginal men.

Stereotypes are created which lead judges and many others to think that when rape occurs to an aboriginal woman it is different from when it occurs to a non-native person. Stereotypes and mistaken beliefs about our family values have resulted in unfair judgement within both the family courts the criminal courts. All these things happen to aboriginal women.

I have stated many times in this House that the real victims are the aboriginal women. I have to ask myself about situations like the one which occurred with Kitty Nowdluk Reynolds. I simply cannot believe that a white women would have been treated that way by the R.C.M.P. or the Crown. I cannot believe that if it was a white women, the R.C.M.P. Complaints Commission would treat her like a criminal and then take well over a year to come forward with the report. I believe strongly that it is the aboriginal women who are the most victimized with gender unfairness in the justice system.

I was disappointed that that message was not put forth in the special advisor's report. Mr. Chairman, another thing that I would like to talk about is the report that we are working on. I believe you said that people should be taught about the justice system. We are only taught about justice in the Dene way. Before that the native people were here, but we are not being taught about the native justice system. If we are going to be talking about the justice system, I think the aboriginal justice system should be touched on also. It has not been mentioned in the report.

The only justice system that seems to be used is the European justice system. I do not think it should be the only one. The way in which people existed and lived as a society, and how they resolved issues prior to the arrival of Europeans, should be taught to our young people. When young students are taught they are only given the white man's point of view. I think they should be taught about how the Dene people existed before the arrival of the white man.

The Inuit and Dene are having difficulty existing because they have to think in the white man's way. They also have to think their way of thinking. They are a little mixed up. This is why the Inuit and Dene are having problems, but this is not mentioned in your report. This is something which should be expressed too.

Thank you. Ms. Peterson.

Mr. Gargan, I agree with your comments that aboriginal women suffer greatly at the hands of stereotypes. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if I went down to the police station this weekend and said, "constable, I have been raped," that my complaint would be dealt with differently than if I were an aboriginal woman, either in this community or in other communities in the territories. There is no doubt in my mind about that. I will be afforded greater credibility because I am white, and that is wrong.

One of the points which I am trying to make in the report is that the problem with credibility extends across gender lines as well. Generally speaking, women, be they white or aboriginal, are not afforded the same credibility that men are. When I go to a bank to ask to borrow money I have more difficulty doing that because I am a woman. When I go into a police station and want to complain about something I have more difficulty because I am a woman. Within the culture of women, aboriginal women suffer from that tremendously.

With respect to the question of apprising within the education system, other means to dispute resolution, I believe that is canvassed in the recommendations. Specifically in the third recommendation, I have suggested that not only should people be taught the present system, so that they have an understanding of it, because I believe that the power to cause change comes through that knowledge, I have also suggested that there be a comparison of other means to dispute resolution and problem solving that are used in different cultures.

I do not think that we should go into this process with the assumption that the way in which things are presently done is right. I think we ought to look at all of the options and see what best suits our needs in this jurisdiction. I think this jurisdiction has unique opportunities to be creative in how it deals with these issues. In being creative we must look to dispute resolution mechanisms that have existed long before western European methods were ever brought to the Northwest Territories. Your comments in this respect are reflected in the report and I think they reflect the concern of many people in the territories.

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, what I said is that aboriginal women have to go through double biases because of the fact that they are not only women but they are also aboriginal. I have used Kitty Nowdluk as an example. In the same light, several years ago there was a woman who was raped, who was in Ontario and was summoned to appear in court, and she came back here without any police escort. This was what I was referring to. The recommendations state that all elementary and high schools should incorporate sections of the administration of justice and the historical overview of the development of the present court structure. What I was referring to was that, in order for us to arrive at that present court system, we should also be allowed to learn of the systems prior to the present court system. I did not see this in the report and this was what I was trying to get at.