This is page numbers 297 - 329 of the Hansard for the 12th Assembly, 3rd Session. The original version can be accessed on the Legislative Assembly's website or by contacting the Legislative Assembly Library. The word of the day was chairman.

Members Present

Hon. Titus Allooloo, Mr. Antoine, Mr. Arngna'naaq, Mr. James Arvaluk, Hon. Michael Ballantyne, Mr. Bernhardt, Hon. Nellie Cournoyea, Mr. Dent, Mr. Gargan, Hon. Stephen Kakfwi, Mr. Koe, Mr. Lewis, Mrs. Marie-Jewell, Ms. Mike, Hon. Don Morin, Mr. Nerysoo, Mr. Ningark, Mr. Dennis Patterson, Hon. John Pollard, Mr. Pudlat, Mr. Pudluk, Mr. Todd, Mr. Tony Whitford, Mr. Zoe

---Prayer

Item 1: Prayer
Item 1: Prayer

Page 297

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Good afternoon. Item 2, Ministers' Statements. Mr. Kakfwi.

Minister's Statement 25-12(3): Passing Of Joe Tobie
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 297

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Joe Tobie, a respected Dogrib elder, passed away last Friday, December 4, 1992. Mr. Tobie was well known to the people of the western Arctic for his Dene language radio broadcasts. He was one of the first two Dene language broadcasters to join C.B.C.'s northern service in 1973. At that time, his job was to cover the Berger Inquiry for radio, and later for television, becoming Canada's first Dene television programmer.

Mr. Tobie played an important role in bringing Dene people together through the medium of radio. His early broadcasts of the Northern Indian Brotherhood Assemblies reached people who were unable to attend and united them in common issues. He was fluent in Dogrib and Chipewyan, and was the only Dene broadcaster to work in two languages.

Mr. Tobie retired in 1989, the longest-serving Dene broadcaster in the north, with 16 years of service. He was a role model in the Dene community, setting an example for many Dene who have since become broadcasters and interpreter/translators. He was universally respected and loved by those who knew him. Our thoughts and sympathy go to his wife, Helen and his family. Mahsi.

Minister's Statement 25-12(3): Passing Of Joe Tobie
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 297

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Ministers' Statements. Ms. Cournoyea.

Minister's Statement 26-12(3): Health Career Books
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 297

Nellie Cournoyea Nunakput

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to provide the Members of this House with copies of a new health careers book for grade eight to twelve students. The publication gives basic information on health career planning and features northerners who have succeeded as health professionals. It will be introduced into the Northwest Territories schools this month.

Other components of the department's health career promotion program include; colouring books for kindergarten to grade four students, a summer program for grade nine students, and a health career feature on the popular T.V.N.C. program "The Tube". A Northwest Territories training program for registered nurses is also being planned, predominantly for aboriginal students. Thank you.

Minister's Statement 26-12(3): Health Career Books
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 297

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Ministers' Statements. Mr. Allooloo.

Minister's Statement 27-12(3): Atlantic Council Of Fisheries Ministers' Meeting
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 297

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Mr. Speaker, last week I attended the fall meeting of the Atlantic Council of Fisheries Ministers. We discussed the declining groundfish stocks in the Saint Lawrence Gulf and south of Newfoundland, and the potential impact of grey and harp seals on these fish.

As quotas for southern groundfish stocks decline, fishermen will look elsewhere for places to fish. In the north, our fishery is just starting. I emphasized to the federal government that northern groundfish quotas and licences should not be increased until we know the size and sustainable harvest levels of our northern fish stocks.

Since the market for sealskins declined, seal populations have been increasing. Many Baffin residents are worried about the increase of harp seals. In the Maritimes, Atlantic grey seals are becoming infested with parasites. The Ministers agreed to establish a working committee to make recommendations on the problems. The first meeting will be in January.

Mr. Speaker, I believe it is important to participate at these meetings. In this way, we can ensure that northern concerns are heard and that our needs are reflected in decisions. Thank you.

Minister's Statement 27-12(3): Atlantic Council Of Fisheries Ministers' Meeting
Item 2: Ministers' Statements

Page 297

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Ministers' Statements. I would like recognize in the gallery the grade six French immersion students from J.H. Sissons Elementary School, and their instructor, Madeline Fortien.

---Applause

Item 3, Members' Statements.

Christmas Wishes To Yellowknife From Natilikmiot Constituency
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 297

John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, Christmas is just around the corner. The Christmas holiday is a time to reflect upon special gifts, a time to be generous, a time for peace, a time for friendship, a time when one hears the laughter of joy.

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the patients at the Stanton Yellowknife Hospital and on behalf of the students who have been educated through the Sir John Franklin High School, and the St. Patrick's High School, I would like to say a very special thank you to Yellowknife for providing those needs. Thank you.

---Applause

Christmas Wishes To Yellowknife From Natilikmiot Constituency
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 298

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 3, Members' Statements. Mr. Lewis.

The Passage Of Bill 9
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 298

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Members for supporting the passage of Bill 9 on Friday to allow for the manufacture of beer in the Northwest Territories. Working on this bill has not been easy. I first started working on the bill in the previous Assembly as a follow-up to the Special Committee on Northern Economy's report. I believed a small manufacturing plant could replace imported beer, which after all is more than 99 per cent water. We have an abundance of water in the Northwest Territories of excellent quality. We even have very large areas of the Northwest Territories where high quality barley could be grown. Only hops and yeast and a few other ingredients, which are cheap to transport, would need to be imported.

What is needed, however, Mr. Speaker, is a provision whereby the Liquor Commission could establish a lower pricing regime for this northern product. This would result in a slight lowering of revenue for the commission. It would be consistent with our business incentive programs so that northern manufacturers could get a break. This also could be an initiative of our own to signal to the rest of Canada that we need to establish a base for our manufacturing with some form of protection. I would also thank my counsel, Virginia Schuler, for her work, and for the assistance given to me by the staff of the Department of Justice and the Department of Safety and Public Services. Lastly, I would like to thank Mr. Arngna'naaq, the Members of the Standing Committee on Legislation and staff, for their useful suggestions and advice. Thank you.

---Applause

The Passage Of Bill 9
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 298

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 3, Members' Statements. Mr. Pudlat.

Support For School In Apex
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 298

Kenoayoak Pudlat Baffin South

(Translation) Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to stand up today to make a Member's statement in support of the school to be built in Apex in Iqaluit. We all support the system of education as Members. We just heard that the school burned down in Apex. I would like to encourage all the Members of the Legislative Assembly to support the building of the school in Apex as soon as possible. The Members of the east and the west are in a position to support the education system. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Support For School In Apex
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 298

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 3, Members' Statements. Mr. Kakfwi.

Passing Of Morris Sangris
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 298

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

(Translation) Thank you. There was the recent death of Morris Sangris, an elder from Yellowknife. There were probably a lot of other people who knew this elder. When I first came to Yellowknife, he was the one who would come over and talk to me. That is how I grew to know him. I was not a resident from here, but I still spoke in my own language to him and he understood me well. That is what I wanted to talk about. Numerous times he helped me as an elder, and sometimes he would seek me out when he needed help. He would talk to me about whatever he had problems with, and I would help him out if I could. I have known him for many years. Perhaps his relatives or my relatives were not aware of this, but I wanted everybody to know this today. This elder was very kind-hearted and helped me a lot when I first started out, so I just wanted to say thank you. Thank you.

---Applause

Passing Of Morris Sangris
Item 3: Members' Statements

Page 298

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. Item 3, Members' Statements. Item 4, Returns to Oral Questions. Item 5, Oral Questions. Item 6, Written Questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Question 14-12(3): Details Surrounding W.C.B. Funding For The Federation Of Labour Survey Of Trade Unionists
Item 6: Written Questions

Page 298

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a written question for the acting Minister responsible for the Workers' Compensation Board. Mr. Speaker, would the Minister please table the following information in the Legislative Assembly?

1. The application for funds submitted to the Workers' Compensation Board by the N.W.T. Federation of Labour to carry out a study for workers' compensation.

2. Copies of all policies, payments, directives, or other financial management instruments developed by the board regarding disbursements of funds made under the subsection 58(2) of the Workers' Compensation Act.

3. A copy of the contribution agreement contract or other undertakings arrived at between the Federation of Labour and the Workers' Compensation Board respecting the terms under which money was provided for this initiative.

4. Copies of any correspondence from the Workers' Compensation Board to the Federation of Labour which specify the board's expectations regarding;

(a) the purpose of which the funds were granted;

(b) accounting and audit requirements respecting the use of these funds;

(c) procedures for the recovery of any unspent surplus funds;

(d) the time period during which the project was to be carried out; and (e) the requirements for the development of a report for other products to be prepared within the funds provided.

5. A listing of the contact people at the Federation of Labour who were involved in this funding application. This should include the names specified on the original funding proposal as well as all names on any correspondence or documentation subsequently received from the Federation of Labour in connection with this project.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Question 14-12(3): Details Surrounding W.C.B. Funding For The Federation Of Labour Survey Of Trade Unionists
Item 6: Written Questions

Page 299

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 6, Written Questions. Item 7, Returns to Written Questions. Mr. Clerk.

Item 7: Returns To Written Questions
Item 7: Returns To Written Questions

Page 299

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Speaker, I have Return to Written Question 11-12(3), asked by Mr. Patterson to the Minister responsible for Education, Culture, and Employment Programs, concerning the statistics on in-service training person years.

Return To Question 11-12(3): Statistics On In-service Training Person Years
Item 7: Returns To Written Questions
Item 7: Returns To Written Questions

Page 299

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

G.N.W.T. In-service training person years are made available through the Public Service Career Training Program (P.S.C.T.P.) and the G.N.W.T. In-service Apprenticeship Program.

Public Service Career Training Program (Fulltime Program) Description

The Public Career Training Program provides salaried trainee positions to train affirmative action candidates for permanent officer and management level target positions with G.N.W.T. departments, boards and agencies. It provides training, counselling, monitoring and administrative support for the development and delivery of individualized training programs of up to 3 years duration. Training programs include a combination of on-the-job training provided by an employee of the applying department, board or agency and specialized short courses of up to six weeks in length.

The number of trainee positions provided to each region is based on the percentage of the total number of public service employees that are in each region (headquarters region includes Rae-Edzo). Other determining factors include the objective of allocating at least one new position to each region. Regional Trainee PY Allocation Committees, which include the regional director, regional superintendent of advanced education and regional superintendent of Personnel, allocate available trainee positions each February. Approximately 70 trainees are supported during a fiscal year, with over 95 per cent native participation. There were 48 trainee positions being supported as of November 30, 1992. There will be an additional 22 trainee positions available for 1993-94 at the February 15, 1993, application deadline.

G.N.W.T. In-Service Apprenticeship Program Description

The G.N.W.T. In-Service Apprenticeship Program administers in-service training for approximately 55 long-term northerners leading to certification at the journeyman level. Training is provided through work experience within G.N.W.T. departments such as Public Works and Transportation, and through annual attendance at institutional apprenticeship courses. The program has over 90 per cent native participation.

Available apprenticeship positions are allocated at the beginning of the fiscal year and during the year as positions become available. Allocations take into account priority occupations and the training capability of the department requesting the position. A waiting list is established for requests that cannot be accommodated.

The number of requests received and positions allocated per region is affected by the number of G.N.W.T. journeyman positions in the region and suitability of workplaces and workloads to accommodate new apprentices.

The list of the apprentices being supported at November 30, 1992 is attached.

Return To Question 11-12(3): Statistics On In-service Training Person Years
Item 7: Returns To Written Questions
Item 7: Returns To Written Questions

Page 299

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 7, Returns to Written Questions. Item 8, Replies to Opening Address. Mr. Lewis.

Item 8: Replies To Opening Address
Item 8: Replies To Opening Address

Page 299

Brian Lewis Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was arranging some notes. I appreciate that you recognized me. I have been very quiet this year, Mr. Speaker. It has given my constituents some concern since I had plenty to say during the 11th Assembly when you were a Member of this Cabinet. For four years, I used every conceivable place on the order paper to raise issues of concern to the people who elected me. One criticism I heard time and time again during the 11th Assembly from my colleagues in the Cabinet and outside of it was I talk too much. My constituents told me, on the other hand, that I did not talk enough, so I have had to compromise. At least I am here every day, and I do make some contribution from time to time. I was also told by several of my constituents that my publication, the Blade, which was used as a means of keeping in touch with my constituents, was too light-hearted and frivolous. I needed to bring weightier matters to their attention.

There are sometimes bizarre and unusual goings-on that take place in this Legislative Assembly. If I had wished, I could have published some hilarious issues in the Blade this year, Mr. Speaker, but I resisted. It has been an unusual year. It has also been the most painful of all the years I have spent in the Northwest Territories. I represent the people of Yellowknife Centre, which is an incredible mixture of people, both aboriginal and non-aboriginal. There are wealthy people who live in penthouse suites in detached homes on beautifully landscaped lots. There are single people who live in single rooms at the Gold Range with a bathroom down the hall. There are old people who have lived here all their lives and who have paid their dues, and they live at the Avens Seniors' Centre or the Mary Murphy Centre.

There are homeless people who stay at the Salvation Army. There are other homeless people who sleep in any warm doorway they can find. There are many kinds of settlers in this community, Mr. Speaker; people like myself who came to this country, were fascinated by it, raised a family, and have felt part of something very important and very special. I feel it has all been very worthwhile, a life well-spent, beginning on Baffin Island and ending up thirty years later here in the capital city. The soul of this community, however, is not government or bureaucracies. The soul of this community is mining. I grew up with mining people. They are tough, resilient people with a big sense of community and comradeship shared by all men who work under difficult and dangerous conditions. My father often told me, "you will not like it underground, son. You will meet great people down there. You will make great friends, but the roof is very heavy and there are no windows." It seems to me ironic, Mr. Speaker, that in the year that we see the destruction of the Miner's Mess at the Yellowknife Inn, we feel chaos in the mining industry which was its inspiration.

Forever etched in our memory will be the most devastating mining disaster in our history. People whose roots go back to the 1930s and 1940s and the early shacks of a gold mining town, feel that there is an industry in danger of collapsing around them. As an elected person, I have never felt so weak and so helpless in all my life. We see around us only a glimpse of what lies ahead for us as a society.

What lies ahead for the people of the Northwest Territories are problems which can only be solved by tremendous courage, intelligence and an incredible amount of hard work and dedication. What I see on the other side of this House is a handful of people working very hard but with no sense of where the people want to go. I have no doubt we have a hard working Premier. I have watched events unfold throughout the year with a sense of dread and frustration, Mr. Speaker. While much of our labour force in the mining industry is on the ropes doing its best to defend itself, our government finds itself in an almost identical position.

From what I was able to learn this weekend, the public has lost confidence in the system by which it is governed. Over the weekend, I heard the following comments:

-We should ask the federal government to step in and take it over;

-There should be an immediate general election so we can turf the whole lot of you out;

-We should start a petition so that people can really express their opinion;

-This government should go into receivership like anything else that goes belly up.

I have been quiet a long time, Mr. Speaker. The survival of public government has been my passion and my main reason for remaining in politics. The government we now have is the one we have claimed to be proud of for so long. We no longer have executive government, Mr. Speaker, what we have is consensus government, and what a nightmare it is. The Executive is just one more committee whose Members are paid a substantial amount of money to be held hostage to the majority where the most powerful and the most threatening within that majority decide which Minister should have the next week of sleepless nights.

My friend, John Ningark, summed things up best last week when he said, "our problem could be summed up in three sentences: 1) There are people like myself who are happy to serve in any way they can; 2) There are people within the Cabinet just renting space and I am not sure for how long; 3) There are others just waiting anxiously to move in as soon as a space becomes vacant."

In the 11th Assembly, we saw the need to organize ourselves as ordinary Members so that we could hold government accountable by working together. This had never happened before. There was never any feeling among this group of ordinary Members which we call Ajautit, which means to push people, that we were a government-in-waiting. We were not there to topple people over and then bet on which way they were going to fall. It simply organized itself so that we could get good government, and many of you remember that.

The 12th Assembly has seen the Ordinary Members' Committee and the Standing Committee on Finance bring the Executive Council to a complete standstill. It is no longer a matter of working to make government accountable; it is a matter of engaging in a power struggle day after day after day. There are people fighting for turf and others defending their turf.

This is supposed to be the best of all possible models of government, at least that is what we tell the rest of the country, since everyone is involved in decision making and in sharing power. Unfortunately, as everyone plainly sees, it just spells chaos. Public confidence in what we do here is rapidly disappearing. Some people believe that there is an intentional undermining of public government so that there can be a new beginning for aboriginal people. There is a strong belief that there are native people who are intent on destroying public government from the inside. By far, the majority of people I have talked to, however, believe that we are incapable of governing ourselves; aboriginal and non-aboriginal people alike.

This Assembly is only a year old, Mr. Speaker. Already, many of my constituents are sick of it. People want order in their lives. The city is in a mood of deep anxiety. The public service is demoralized. The private sector is in bad shape. Mining faces a very uncertain future.

I was not fully aware of the depth of this feeling, Mr. Speaker, until I talked with several Yellowknifers on Saturday morning. I completely lost my voice by this time and did a lot of listening. This seems to have come a long way from being a response to the Commissioner's Address, Mr. Speaker, but the Commissioner lives on my street and I know he likes his addresses, no matter how short, to be replied to.

It would be my proposal, Mr. Speaker, that Mr. Ballantyne, Mr. Dent and myself be nominated from the floor on Wednesday so that Yellowknifers can at least witness, one more time, that they are correct in feeling the way they do about what they thought was their government.

I am not going to go around soliciting anybody's nomination or anybody's vote. I am talking about one quarter of the people in the Northwest Territories. People are angry and frustrated.

To end on a humorous note, Mr. Speaker, which I will try to do and I hope you will appreciate it, I could offer Ms. Cournoyea to join our Cabinet for a salary of $1 a year which she could pay me out of her own pocket. I could also give her my undated letter of completely unconditional discharge. For any western Members still breathing like a furnace to take up one of the seats of the not-so-mighty, she could then offer them my seat at the same salary. I cannot think of a more imaginative solution to the current power struggle to which I can see no end.

Mr. Speaker, for the sake of my constituents, I should also give one more explanation of why I have talked little during the past month.

A year ago, I undertook to work, once again, on a private Member's bill enabling breweries to be established in the Northwest Territories. I wanted to work on some practical project which could lead to the development of a small, environmentally friendly industry in the north. I did it because I believed it could attract investment, create jobs, and lead to a distinctive northern product.

To guide a private Member's bill through this Assembly is time-consuming and requires a lot of patience. It also means that I have to be kind and full of good will to all my colleagues. I do not know if it is un-parliamentary to say this, Mr. Speaker, but it is not my style to kiss anybody's backside for anything. Being quiet and full of good will is the closest I could get to it. I would like to thank the Members for allowing Bill 9 to proceed, for I believe that it leads to the further reduction of our dependence on our imported products.

Meanwhile, the public awaits with great cynicism the next chapter in our evolution. I hope after this week I will no longer be hearing words like "Mickey Mouse outfit", "Disney Land", "Demolition Derby Politics", or "Kamikazi Assembly". Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

---Applause

Item 8: Replies To Opening Address
Item 8: Replies To Opening Address

Page 301

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 8, Replies to Opening Address. Item 9, Petitions. Item 10, Reports of Standing and Special Committees. Item 11, Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills. Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills
Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 301

Silas Arngna'naaq Kivallivik

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to report to the Assembly that the Standing Committee on Legislation has reviewed Bill 2 and Bill 7 and wishes to report that Bill 2 and Bill 7 are now ready for the Committee of the Whole. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills
Item 11: Reports Of Committees On The Review Of Bills

Page 301

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you. Pursuant to rule 66(3), Bill 2 and Bill 7 are ordered into the Committee of the Whole. Item 11, Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills. Item 12, Tabling of Documents. Mr. Kakfwi.

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 301

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Speaker, I wish to table two documents. Tabled Document 27--12(3), the Arctic College Annual Report, 1991-92, and Tabled Document 28-12(3), the Northwest Territories Law Foundation 10th Annual Report for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1992.

Item 12: Tabling Of Documents
Item 12: Tabling Of Documents

Page 301

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 12, Tabling of Documents. Item 13, Notices of Motion. Mr. Nerysoo.

Motion 7-12(3): Appointments To Fill Vacancies On Executive Council Cabinet
Item 13: Notices Of Motion

Page 301

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I give notice that on Wednesday, December 9, 1992 I shall move the following motion: I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Iqaluit, that this Legislative Assembly recommend to the Commissioner of the Northwest Territories that Rebecca Mike, the Member for Baffin Central and John Todd, the Member for Keewatin Central, be appointed to the Executive Council Cabinet.

Motion 7-12(3): Appointments To Fill Vacancies On Executive Council Cabinet
Item 13: Notices Of Motion

Page 301

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 13, Notices of Motion. Item 14, Notices of Motions for First Reading of Bills. Item 15, Motions. Mr. Nerysoo.

Item 15: Motions
Item 15: Motions

Page 301

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to seek unanimous consent to deal with the motion regarding the appointments to fill the vacancies on the Executive Council Cabinet.

Item 15: Motions
Item 15: Motions

Page 301

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Nerysoo.

Motion 7-12(3): Appointments To Fill Vacancies On Executive Council Cabinet
Item 15: Motions

Page 301

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

WHEREAS, section 55(1) of the Legislative Assembly Executive Council Act requires that there should be an Executive Council of the Northwest Territories;

AND WHEREAS, vacancies exist on the Executive Council due to the resignation of Mr. Arvaluk, the Member for Aivilik, and Mr. Patterson, the Member for Iqaluit;

AND WHEREAS, it is desirable to fill these vacancies;

AND WHEREAS, Members of the Executive Council are appointed by the Commissioner on the recommendation of this Assembly;

NOW THEREFORE I MOVE, seconded by the honourable Member for Iqaluit, that this Legislative Assembly recommend to the Commissioner of the Northwest Territories that Rebecca Mike, the Member for Baffin Central and John Todd, the Member for Keewatin Central, be appointed to the Executive Council Cabinet.

Motion 7-12(3): Appointments To Fill Vacancies On Executive Council Cabinet
Item 15: Motions

Page 301

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

The motion is in order, Mr. Nerysoo. To the motion, Mr. Nerysoo.

Motion 7-12(3): Appointments To Fill Vacancies On Executive Council Cabinet
Item 15: Motions

Page 302

Richard Nerysoo Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I had not intended to speak at great length on this motion, in fact I had not thought of speaking to this motion at all.

However, I did want to indicate to both Members, Mr. Todd who served so well as the Chairman of the Standing Committee on Finance, despite the fact that many may suggest his responsibility was one that challenged the responsibility of the Cabinet. In my view it was his responsibility to do so, as a result of the direction received by the Members who were in his committee. I also wanted to say how thankful we are, at least on this side of the House, for the work and commitment he made to the ordinary Members. I believe that no matter where Mr. Todd sits or Ms. Mike sits, they will receive the support of the Members on the consensus approach.

I hope neither Member will forget how important it was for all of us to reach a consensus, to listen to the interest, the needs and the concerns of every Member, no matter what constituency that Member came from and I believe that it is only fair that as you go across to sit on Cabinet, you reflect upon the consensus building that was apparent, in the committees in which you worked, and in the ordinary Members. You can be assured that if that consensus remains and your willingness to work with us is apparent you will receive the support of every Member on this side of the House. Despite the fact that we may not always agree with your initiatives, we will always defend your ability, whenever it is convenient or necessary as a result of constructive consolidation with all Members of this Assembly.

---Applause

Motion 7-12(3): Appointments To Fill Vacancies On Executive Council Cabinet
Item 15: Motions

Page 302

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Is there a seconder to the motion? Mr. Patterson.

Motion 7-12(3): Appointments To Fill Vacancies On Executive Council Cabinet
Item 15: Motions

Page 302

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to second this motion and sincerely wish the Members-to-be of Cabinet every success in the challenges ahead. I think I am qualified to say that serving as a Member of the Executive Council is a difficult job at the best of times. As our former colleague, Mr. Butters, used to say, "the easy decisions are made before they get to the Cabinet table; it is the tough ones that come to the Minister's desk and to Cabinet." It is a difficult job, and I think it is an especially difficult job in these difficult times that we are facing in the Northwest Territories. I know that all the Members will give these new Executive Council Members their support and understanding. I do sincerely hope that they will operate, along with the change that will be contemplated later this week, in a new and better climate of cooperation.

Mr. Todd and Ms. Mike have energy, enthusiasm, experience and skills to bring to the Cabinet table, and I wish them every success. Qujannamiik.

---Applause

Motion 7-12(3): Appointments To Fill Vacancies On Executive Council Cabinet
Item 15: Motions

Page 302

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

To the motion.

Motion 7-12(3): Appointments To Fill Vacancies On Executive Council Cabinet
Item 15: Motions

Page 302

An Hon. Member

Question.

Motion 7-12(3): Appointments To Fill Vacancies On Executive Council Cabinet
Item 15: Motions

Page 302

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Question has been called. Mr. Nerysoo, you have the opportunity to conclude the debate. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

---Applause

Item 16, First Reading of Bills. Mr. Allooloo.

Bill 15: An Act To Amend The Wildlife Act
Item 16: First Reading Of Bills

December 6th, 1992

Page 302

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Hay River, that Bill 15, An Act to Amend the Wildlife Act, be read for the first time.

Bill 15: An Act To Amend The Wildlife Act
Item 16: First Reading Of Bills

Page 303

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

We have a copy of Bill 15 today, Mr. Allooloo. The motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 15 has had first reading. Item 17, Second Reading of Bills. Mr. Morin.

Bill 3: An Act To Amend The Northwest Territories Housing Corporation Act
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 303

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Hay River, that Bill 3, An Act to Amend the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation Act, be read for the second time. Mr. Speaker, this bill would amend the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation Act to provide that the affairs of the corporation be conducted by the president in accordance with the directions of the Minister instead of by the board of directors, and to remove reference to the board of directors. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Bill 3: An Act To Amend The Northwest Territories Housing Corporation Act
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

Page 303

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

The motion is in order. To the principle of the bill.

Bill 3: An Act To Amend The Northwest Territories Housing Corporation Act
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

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An Hon. Member

Question.

Bill 3: An Act To Amend The Northwest Territories Housing Corporation Act
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Question is being called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 3 has had second reading. Accordingly, the bill stands referred to the Committee of the Whole. Item 17, Second Reading of Bills. Mr. Allooloo.

Bill 3: An Act To Amend The Northwest Territories Housing Corporation Act
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

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Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I seek consent to proceed with Bill 15 for second reading.

Bill 3: An Act To Amend The Northwest Territories Housing Corporation Act
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Allooloo, you will need unanimous consent. The honourable Member is seeking unanimous consent. Are there any nays? There are no nays. Please proceed, Mr. Allooloo.

Bill 15: An Act To Amend The Wildlife Act
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

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Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Hay River, that Bill 15, An Act to Amend the Wildlife Act, be read for the second time. Mr. Speaker, this bill would amend the Wildlife Act to remove the requirement for a reindeer reserve caribou licence in order to hunt caribou on that reserve except in the proportion of the reserve within the Gwich'in settlement area. Thank you.

Bill 15: An Act To Amend The Wildlife Act
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Mr. Allooloo. Your motion is in order. To the principle of the bill.

Bill 15: An Act To Amend The Wildlife Act
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

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An Hon. Member

Question.

Bill 15: An Act To Amend The Wildlife Act
Item 17: Second Reading Of Bills

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The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Bill 15 has had second reading. Accordingly, the bill stands referred to a committee. Item 17, Second Reading of Bills. Item 18, Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters: Tabled Document 2-12(3), "The Justice House" Report of the Special Advisor on Gender Equality; Committee Report 1-12(3), Standing Committee on Finance Report on the Review of the 1993-94 Capital Estimates; Committee Report 3-12(3), Final Report of the Special Committee on Constitutional Reform; Committee Report 4-12(3), Report on the Review of the 1993-94 Capital Estimates for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation; Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Bill 10, An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act; Bill 13, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92; Bill 14, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93; Appearance of the Languages Commissioner. Mr. Nerysoo, you are in the Chair.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. If I could call the committee to order. We were dealing with Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94 and Committee Report 4-12(3), Report on the Review of the 1993-94 Capital Estimates for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. We were also dealing with Committee Report 1-12(3), Standing Committee on Finance Report on the Review of the 1993-94 Capital Estimates. What is the wish of the committee? Mr. Antoine.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mr. Chairman, let us deal with Committee Report 4-12(3), Report on the Review of the 1993-94 Capital Estimates for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

I believe, Mr. Antoine, we had concluded all the matters relating to that particular report and had concluded all the recommendations. Is it the wish of the committee that we deal with Bill 1 and get into detail? Comments, Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

I have some general comments, Mr. Nerysoo. I believe the committee wanted to do Bill 1 to go into the details of the N.W.T. Housing Corporation Capital Estimates.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Is it agreed that we deal with this in detail?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Northwest Territories Housing Corporation

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Bill 1. General comments, page 3-10. Are there any general comments? Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

General Comments

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I made most of my general comments to the Minister before he appeared in front of the Standing Committee on Finance. However, I did want to confirm with the Minister some of the concerns with regard to his current strategy. It is not a concern, but a clarification that most of the intent of the corporation now is to look at housing in the north through a H.A.P. program. I believe the modified H.A.P. program has received a lot of compliments. I want to compliment the Minister for putting all the work and effort into redesigning that program, which would make it easier and more accessible to the people of the north.

However, at the same time, I am concerned that we may be placing too much of our effort into the remodified H.A.P. program and may, at some point in time, lose sight of the public housing needs in the communities. Regardless of the survey unit that he initiated in which people had indicated they would like to own their own home, I hope that the Minister is cognizant of the fact that public housing is needed and that the units should be made available to the communities that request them. I wanted to make him aware that, in as much as we want to build H.A.P. units across the territories, there are some communities that will need public housing. We are fortunate in our community that we can use the rent supp program in lieu of the public housing units, but there are many communities across the north that would not be able to take advantage of that. They still need public units. I hope not all housing dollars allocated will go into just total H.A.P. units and that we will keep some for other programs to be made available.

Mr. Chairman, my comments are mainly to commend the Minister on changing the H.A.P. program to make it more easily accessible to the people of the north. I believe the hard work that he has put into this has come into fruition. I look forward to looking at the program in the next year to see what areas that have to be still worked on to ensure that this program is delivered effectively. I am pleased that we are getting a lot more units in totality for the dollars that we are spending. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank the Member for the concerns she raised. We will take a look at it. This year, our programs are 50 per cent access and

50 per cent public units, whether they be rent supp or public. I fully understand that public housing is still needed in all the communities. We will just keep working to try to solve that need. I have told the Members already that if we work with and consult with the communities on the allocations, possibly we can work something out if it is needed between communities, as long as we keep the same number of units. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Ningark.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree with my colleague the Member for Thebacha. We appreciate the fact, Mr. Chairman, that this program in your introduction makes it easier for people who do not have the time to build their own home because the N.W.T. Housing Association is able to build those homes and turn them over to the people who want to take advantage of the program.

By the same token, Mr. Chairman, I think we should not lose sight of the social housing needs of the people who, in my mind, are disadvantaged. When I say disadvantaged, I am talking about the people who are getting older but who are not yet eligible for senior citizens' homes and people who are middle-aged but are disadvantaged through some physical inability to build their own homes.

There are many people who want to build their own homes, and to own their own homes, but there are equally as many people who are not sure if they want to own their own home, because some people are a little more daring than others. In that sense, Mr. Speaker, I think we should not forget the people who need the public units. I agree 100 per cent with the Member for Thebacha. I also would like to commend the Minister of D.P.W. and N.W.T. Housing Corporation for taking the risk in introducing the new program which ordinary Members have been concerned about. I think, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister did the right thing by introducing the program at this time to make it more accessible to the people within this jurisdiction. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Any other general comments? Mr. Minister.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The two major concerns people have had with the old H.A.P. program is just what the Member has referred to. It is the inability to have time off work to build, or they do not have the skills to build. So I think we have come a long way in adjusting that issue, as well as too low or too high of an income. Those are the major problems. I think we have come a long way to address those issues. We are still looking for communities' input and advice on how to make the programs better yet. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 304

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Any other general comments? Mr. Gargan.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, I just have one problem I would like to make the Minister aware of. This fall, Mr. Chairman, several public houses were completed and were ready for occupancy and, during the selection process, some people in my own constituency were not too happy with the people who were getting it and members serving on that board did not declare whether or not they had a conflict of interest. It ended up that perhaps some allocations were questionable and Mr. Brian Hiebert was going to redo the point system; he was going to look at it again and see if there was some conflict there.

I just wanted to let you know because I think we still have problems with regard to people sitting on the board who look more towards their immediate families or relatives for those allocations. I think it should be clear to the Members that we should have someone from the band or the hamlet in the communities when the selection process is on, or even allow the bands or the hamlets to look at the list based on the priorities and points so that they will know who should be eligible. Even before hand, we could question whether or not the point system is actually accurate towards those individuals. I would like you to look into that. Again, I know that you have done a good job with regard to the H.A.P. allocations, but I hope we do not lose sight of public housing for people who cannot afford a house, and I am looking at single parents and young people who have just a small family. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Mr. Minister.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have to do everything possible for those that can afford it and those who are willing to get into home ownership. For those that cannot afford it; young people or older people, whoever they are, we have to try to make as many public units available as possible. One way of doing that is freeing up the units from those that can afford to move out and move into their own homes. I have the same concern as the Member does about the housing authorities. The whole issue of housing authorities, the societies, is the next thing we are going to start working on. We are going to try to redo the rental program so that it is fairly spread out across the Northwest Territories. We should be able to report back to this Assembly by the spring on those two issues.

If you have band people in the community, they should belong to the housing authority, the Metis should belong to the housing authority as well as the local council. Those are the key players, so they should all have equal representation on that authority, and it will happen. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 304

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Any other general comments? Mr. Ningark.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess Mr. Gargan and I came from the same background; from the small communities where the potential for favouritism is very high. All we want is fair management of the program with no favouritism coming from the members who are in charge of determining who should get the homes under the program. There should be nothing based on family ties. I think whoever is giving out the points should, at any time, declare a conflict of interest where he or she seems to be in that position. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 304

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 304

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree 100 per cent with the Member and that is the reason we are going

to look at the housing authorities and we are going to make sure that everybody understands the rules they have to work under. We will make it as simple and clear, the same as conflict guidelines, as simple and as clear as possible. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Any other general comments. It is agreed that we go into detail?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. I just wanted to remind Members that there are new inserts as a result of some of the changes. Detail of capital, N.W.T. Housing Contributions, North Slave, total region $6.321 million. Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. South Slave, total region $4.631 million. Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Western Arctic, total region $7.011 million. Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Baffin, total region $5.060 million. Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Keewatin, total region $3.383 million. Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Kitikmeot, total region $4.544 million. Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total contributions $30.950 million. Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total activity $30.950 million. Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Program Summary, information item, total capital expenditures $30.950 million. Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Does the committee agree that this concludes the Housing Corporation? Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank the Members for passing this budget and I would like to thank the Housing Corporation staff for working on it. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you very much. Does the committee agree that the detail to Bill 1 is concluded? Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 305

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Prior to proceeding with Bill 1, I would like to ask the Standing Committee on Finance if it has any other matters that it wants to deal with in its reports? Mr. Dent.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, I have a motion to deal with amending the amounts because of deletions that we have made as we go along. I believe that this is the proper time for it. No?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

I believe that there are amendments to the total dollar figures. We will deal with that in Bill 1, when we get to the conclusion.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

All right.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you, Mr. Dent. Mr. Antoine.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Concerning Bill 1, I have two committee comments that I would like to make. The first one is on the Workers' Compensation Board. Mr. Chairman, every year the Standing Committee on Finance recommends and the Legislative

Assembly passes a motion that the Workers' Compensation Board provide its capital and main estimates at the same time as the government to facilitate their review. Every year the Workers' Compensation Board fails to provide this budget at the same time as the government. If they have difficulty meeting these simple requests, it gives us concern about the rest of the operation. The committee once again requests that the capital and the main estimates of the Workers' Compensation Board be provided to the committee at the same time as the department in order to facilitate our review.

Finally Mr. Chairman, I have the committee's comments on the work of the Northwest Territories Power Corporation. Every year the Standing Committee on Finance recommends and the Legislative Assembly passes a motion that the Northwest Territories Power Corporation provide its capital and its main estimates at the same time as the government to facilitate the review. Every year the government says that this will happen, and every year the Power Corporation fails to provide its budget at the same time as the government. If they have difficulty then we have some concerns about it. As we have recommended in earlier reports, the committee would like the capital and the main estimates of the Northwest Territories Power Corporation to be provided at the same time as the department noted to facilitate our review.

That is all, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. I believe those matters were raised in Committee Report 1-12(2). Does the committee agree that we have concluded Committee Report 1-12(3) and Committee Report 4-12(3)? Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Does the committee agree that we go into a clause by clause discussion of Bill 1? Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94; Committee Report 1-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates; And, Committee Report 4-12(3): Review Of The 1993-94 Capital Estimates For The N.W.T. Housing Corporation
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. We will deal with Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94. Are there any general comments?

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Some Hon. Members

Clause by clause.

Clause By Clause

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Clause by clause? Thank you. Clause 1. Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Clause 2. Agreed?

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 1: Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1993-94
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Clause 3. Agreed? Mr. Dent.

Committee Motion 44-12(3): To Adopt Clause 3(2) Of Bill 1, As Amended
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Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, I move that Clause 3, subsection 2 of Bill 1 be amended by striking out $176.985 million and by substituting $176.45 million.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

The motion is in order. I was just making sure that procedurally we were correct, because you are amending the schedule and there is a section relating to the schedule in that particular case. It is all right, it is in order. The motion has been translated and it is available.

Committee Motion 44-12(3): To Adopt Clause 3(2) Of Bill 1, As Amended
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Some Hon. Members

Question.

Committee Motion 44-12(3): To Adopt Clause 3(2) Of Bill 1, As Amended
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Question has been called. Motion is in order. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Thank you. Clause 3, as amended? Agreed?

Committee Motion 44-12(3): To Adopt Clause 3(2) Of Bill 1, As Amended
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 44-12(3): To Adopt Clause 3(2) Of Bill 1, As Amended
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Clause 4. Agreed?

Committee Motion 44-12(3): To Adopt Clause 3(2) Of Bill 1, As Amended
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Page 306

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 44-12(3): To Adopt Clause 3(2) Of Bill 1, As Amended
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Clause 5. Agreed?

Committee Motion 44-12(3): To Adopt Clause 3(2) Of Bill 1, As Amended
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Page 306

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 44-12(3): To Adopt Clause 3(2) Of Bill 1, As Amended
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Schedule. Mr. Dent.

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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Page 306

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, I move that the schedule to Bill 1 be amended:

(a)by reducing the amount set out opposite vote 2, item 7, by $20,000 to $12.377 million;

(b)by reducing the amount set out opposite vote 2, item 9, by $40,000 to $2.210 million;

(c)by reducing the amount set out opposite vote 2, item 14, by $475,000 to $31.91 million; and

(d)by reducing the amount set out as the total appropriation by $535,000 from $176.985 million to $176.45 million.

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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Page 306

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Motion is now being circulated. Motion is in order. To the motion.

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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An Hon. Member

Question.

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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Page 307

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 307

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Schedule, capital, total appropriation $176.45 million. Agreed?

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Bill as a whole? Agreed?

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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Page 307

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Bill as a whole as amended?

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Does the committee agree that this concludes Bill 1, and Bill 1 is ready for third reading? Agreed.

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We would like to deal with Bill 10, An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act.

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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Page 307

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Does the committee agree that we deal with Bill 10? Agreed?

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 307

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 45-12(3): To Adopt Schedule Of Bill 1, As Amended
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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Page 307

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Introductory Remarks

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, Bill 10, An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act, would increase the rate of income tax paid by people in the Northwest Territories to the Government of the Northwest Territories from 44 per cent to 45 per cent of federal tax. Mr. Chairman, the purpose is to bring us closer into line with the average across Canada. There is always pressure upon us from the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, which provides our funding, to bring up our tax rates, which are the lowest in Canada at the present time. That is the purpose of the bill, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Antoine, Standing Committee on Finance.

Standing Committee on Finance Comments

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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Page 307

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Standing Committee on Finance reviewed Bill 10, An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act, during its meeting on December 1, 1992. This bill would raise the rate of income tax for residents in the Northwest Territories from 44 per cent to 45 per cent effective January 1, 1993. Mr. Chairman, no one likes tax increases. The Standing Committee on Finance has stated previously that raising taxes is not a solution to the fiscal problems in the Northwest Territories. We must find ways to deliver a government program at cheaper costs. At the same time, the Members are aware that the revenues of this government have been shrinking. Cuts in federal funding for cost-sharing housing programs, the health billing dispute, and the economic climate have all contributed to this. The Members have noted that, even with this increase in rates, the personal income tax rate in the Northwest Territories remains one of the lowest in the country. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, the Standing Committee on Finance agreed at its meeting on December 1, 1992, to recommend this bill to the Committee of the Whole for consideration. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Are there any other general comments? Does the committee agree that we go clause by clause through Bill 10? Agreed?

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Clause By Clause

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Clause 1. Agreed?

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Clause 2. Agreed?

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Bill as a whole. Agreed?

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Does this committee agree that Bill 10 is ready for third reading? Agreed?

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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Page 307

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Prior to proceeding with Bills 13 and 14, we still have documentation that is necessary to conclude. We will take a 15 minute break.

---SHORT RECESS

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Does the committee agree that we deal with Bill 13, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92. Agreed?

Bill 10: An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 308

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. General comments. Mr. Minister.

Introductory Comments

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 308

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, requests authority for net additional appropriations of $10.277 million. The supplementary appropriation consists of additional appropriations in the amount of $9.025 million in operations and maintenance, and additional capital appropriations in the amount of $1.252 million. The appropriations include the initial requirements for decentralization initiatives currently under way. The appropriations are within the estimated supplementary requirements for the year, as shown in the summary of projected revenues and expenditures. Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to review the details of the supplementary funding requests and either answer Members' questions or refer them to the Minister responsible. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I believe that your remarks may have been directed at Bill 14 and we are dealing with Bill 13, but thank you for your initial remarks on Bill 14. At least it prepares us all for Bill 14. So, Mr. Minister, if we could deal with Bill 13. It deals with the matter on Territorial Health Insurance, Mr. Minister.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 308

Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Mr. Chairman, I would request I move to the witness table and bring in Mr. Lew Voytilla, the Secretary to the Financial Management Board as a witness. Thank you.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 308

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

We are dealing with Bill 13. Thank you. Mr. Dent.

Standing Committee On Finance Comments

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 308

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have the Standing Committee on Finance's comments on Supplementary Appropriation No. 4, 1991-92. Mr. Chairman, the Standing Committee on Finance reviewed Bill 13, Supplementary Appropriation Act. 4, 1992-92 during its meetings on December 1 and 2, 1992.

Mr. Chairman, the standing committee was concerned that the establishment of a doubtful account allowance would adversely affect the statement of claim the Government of the Northwest Territories has filed in the federal court of Canada regarding the health billing dispute. The Minister of Finance has assured the committee, by letter, that this is not the case. This allowance has been established to conform to sound financial and accounting practices. The committee is satisfied that this is the case. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, the Standing Committee on Finance agreed, at its meeting on December 2, 1992, to

recommend this bill to the Committee of the Whole for discussion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Are there any other general comments with regard to Bill 13? I believe the Minister requested a witness. Is that agreed by the committee? Agreed?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Sergeant-at-Arms, could you escort the witness in please? Thank you. Mr. Minister, for the record, could you please introduce your witness?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

Mr. Chairman, the gentleman I have with me is Mr. Lew Voytilla, who is the Secretary to the Financial Management Board. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Did you have any other general comments with regard to Bill 13?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Don Morin Tu Nedhe

No, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Territorial Health Insurance Services

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 308

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. What is the wish of the committee, that we deal with the matter clause by clause? Yes, I must deal with detail. Sorry. You have the Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, document. Yes, it is new legislation. Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92, program health, operations and maintenance not previously authorized, territorial health insurance services $19 million. Agreed?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Total department $19 million. Agreed?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 308

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 308

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Does the committee agree that the detail is concluded?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 308

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 308

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Does the committee agree that we deal with Bill 13 clause by clause?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Clause By Clause

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Clause 1, Agreed?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 309

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Clause 2, Agreed?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 309

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 309

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Clause 3, Agreed?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 309

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 309

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Clause 4, Agreed?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Clause 5, Agreed?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 309

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Schedule, Agreed?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 309

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed.

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 309

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Vote 1, operations and maintenance, total operations and maintenance $19 million. Agreed?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total supplementary appropriation $19 million. Agreed?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 309

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 309

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Bill as a whole? Agreed?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 309

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 309

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Does the committee agree that Bill 13 is ready for third reading?

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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Page 309

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 13: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92
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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Does the committee agree that we deal with Bill 14, Supplementary Appropriation, Act No. 3, 1992-93? Agreed?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Mr. Minister, introductory remarks.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Introductory Remarks

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John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In case you missed it the first time, Mr. Chairman, Supplementary Appropriation, No. 3, requests authority for net additional appropriations of $10.277 million. The supplementary appropriation consists of additional appropriations in the amount of $9.025 million in operations and maintenance, and additional capital appropriations in the amount of $1.252 million. The appropriations include the initial requirements for decentralization initiatives that are currently under way. The appropriations are within the estimated supplementary requirements for the year as shown in the summary of projected revenues and expenditures. Mr. Chairman, as I said before, I am prepared to review the details of the supplementary funding request and either answer Members' questions or refer them to the Minister responsible. I apologize for the initial confusion, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Antoine, from the Standing Committee on Finance.

Standing Committee On Finance Comments

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Standing Committee on Finance reviewed Bill 14, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93, during its meetings on December 2 and 7, 1992. The committee was pleased that the Minister of Finance and his officials were able to meet with us to answer some of our questions. Mr. Chairman, a large portion of this supplementary appropriation pertains to the decentralization initiative announced by the Government Leader during the June session of this House.

Several Members of the committee have expressed concerns about the entire decentralization initiative. In particular, they are concerned that there has not been an adequate review of the initiative by this Assembly. As a result, the Members of the committee may have additional comments concerning funding for the decentralization initiative as they arise. In addition, Mr. Chairman, several Members of the committee have concerns about the process used to provide funding for salary increases for community based alcohol and drug programs.

As the Members are aware, increases in salaries for these workers were first recommended by the Standing Committee on Finance during its review of the 1992-93 Main Estimates. The Members of the committee are concerned that this funding may be insufficient to adequately compensate these essential workers. The Members of the committee would have preferred a more thorough review of these increases prior to the introduction of this supplementary appropriation.

Mr. Chairman, due to the limited time the committee had to review this bill, several specific concerns remain outstanding. Members of the committee may have questions on the specifics of the bill during the line by line review of this bill today.

Mr. Chairman, the Standing Committee agreed at its meeting on December 7, 1992, to refer this bill to the Committee of the Whole for discussion. Mahsi.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Are there any general comments? Thank you, Mr. Zoe, general comments.

General Comments

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, my colleague, Mr. Antoine, has outlined in the Standing Committee on Finance review how the Members expressed concerns on certain initiatives this government is undertaking. I, for one, Mr. Chairman, raised those concerns during our review of the Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3. Mr. Chairman, the issue that I am raising pertains to the initiative that the government is taking in the area of decentralization. The supp. is asking us for money to give to the government so that it can implement its initiative. To date, the House has never seen the implementation plan of the government. Before I approve any money, I would like to see a plan which indicates how they are going to achieve the initiative of the government. How the government compiled the Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, is interesting, Mr. Chairman. It makes suggestions within the bill that they know that a number of Members would be raising certain issues pertaining to decentralization. On the other hand, they are also asking for money for the drug and alcohol program which is also in the details. I cannot say no to this particular bill because there are some good initiatives in there. For instance, the government is asking for money for the drug and alcohol program.

On the other hand, they are also asking for money for decentralization, which I have problems with. A lot of Members on this side of the House have raised those concerns. Mr. Chairman, I would like to see that particular implementation plan first, and I said that earlier on when I spoke to the principle of the bill. To date, the government has never produced, in this House, its implementation plan. I cannot give a blank cheque without knowing how this program is going to be implemented. Those are the concerns that I am raising, Mr. Chairman. I am sure that many Members on this side of the House have concerns pertaining particularly to the decentralization initiative of this government.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Are there any general comments? Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With regard to this particular bill, I fully support of the intention of the government to decentralize. I find that the substantiation is justified. I am not stating that just because half of the Arctic College headquarters is going to Fort Smith. I know that the whole Arctic College headquarters once belonged in Fort Smith. It is actually going back where it rightfully belongs. I believe that the decentralization concept is something that this government has to look at because many communities can do these program deliveries effectively without hindering the program. They can be delivered out of other communities just as effectively as they can out of Yellowknife. I recognize the effects it would have on the city of Yellowknife. However, most of these positions are not totally filled. Some of them are vacant positions. It also gives the ones who do have to move, an opportunity to deliver their programs in another area. I recognize that a lot of the funding in this supp is for implementation. I do not believe that we can really sit around and talk about their plan and implementation funding or the reason for it. I believe it is a political decision that the Cabinet made, and as a Member, I fully support their initiative. In order to carry out the initiative, they need the funds. I fully support the supp. Thank you.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Are there any other general comments? What is the wish of the committee? Shall we go into detail? Agreed?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Bill 14, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93. Does the committee agree that we go into detail? Agreed?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Legislative Assembly

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. We begin on page six. Legislative Assembly, operations and maintenance, not previously authorized, $966,000. Agreed?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total department, $966,000. Agreed?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Executive

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Executive, operations and maintenance, Ministers' offices, not previously authorized, $57,000. Agreed?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Intergovernmental And Aboriginal Affairs

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Ministry of Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs, not previously authorized $172,000. Agreed?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total department, not previously authorized $229,000. Agreed?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Finance

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Finance, operations and maintenance, tax administration, not previously authorized $155,000. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister how he justifies requesting $155,000 in this supp when the Payroll Tax Act has not been passed by this House?

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, for these kinds of initiatives, it takes some lead time to put things in place, to do work, to put together forms and information systems. Perhaps I am being bold, Mr. Chairman, but I am anticipating that the Assembly will agree with the payroll tax and see the wisdom of it. I want to be in a position to implement those taxation measures when that happens. It is the lead time that we require, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

I agree, the Minister is being very bold. Mr. Chairman, this question concerns the start-up funding for .3 of the PY for $155,000. Can the Minister indicate to us how much is actually for the PY, and what the remainder is for? Thank you.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, we estimate that the $155,000 and the .3 PY for start-up, are for the development of legislation, administrative procedures, computer systems, and disseminating taxpayer information packages. I do not have the breakdown of how much the .3 PY is going to cost, Mr. Chairman, but I can provide that to the committee.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

This leads me to another question. Does the development of legislation for the Payroll Tax Act, not just come through the Justice Department, through the legislation division? Thank you.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, we have had to employ some external expertise. We will have to do some consultation with regard to this tax. As I have told the Standing Committee on Finance, this is the first jurisdiction to have a payroll tax of this nature. Although there are other jurisdictions which have payroll taxes imposed upon employers, this one is upon an employee. It is being researched, and there is some cost associated with that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Are there general questions? Mr. Koe.

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Fred Koe Inuvik

This may be a wise and innovative program, Mr. Minister, but you do not have the support. I am not sure where it is going to go. If the payroll tax is not approved, then what happens to this amount of money that is already being pre-approved? We are approving money before a new act is approved. I have some concerns with this.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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John Pollard Hay River

There is no question, Mr. Chairman, that a lot of this money will be spent by the time the bill comes back to the House. Some of it, which will be on equipment upgrades, etc. will still be available to us, but there will be some costs. There could be a loss if the Legislative Assembly does not support the payroll tax, Mr. Chairman. The Member is correct.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Any questions with regard to tax administration not previously authorized $155,000? Mr. Ningark.

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John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Many times, we approve appropriations which have already been spent. I am wondering if part of the $155,000 under this program is already spent on research of the proposed payroll tax bill? Thank you.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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John Pollard Hay River

No. None of the systems hardware has been purchased, Mr. Chairman. This is what is required to go from now until the end of the fiscal year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Are there any other general comments? Mr. Antoine.

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was wondering if we could defer this $155,000 that has been requested for the administration of the implementation of the Payroll Tax Act until we deal with the Payroll Tax Act, perhaps during the second or third reading. I would like to defer this particular activity until we deal with the Payroll Tax Act. Thank you.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister, did you have a response?

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John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, if the committee were to defer or delete this particular item from the budget, I would not proceed by way of special warrant, not having got a clear message from this House that it did not want the money spent. What it would do, though, is put us way behind. Assuming that the Payroll Tax Act will pass this House, then we would not be in a position to start collecting that tax at that time. It will set us back quite a way, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. General questions. Mr. Ningark.

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John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is a feeling on this side of the table that the Payroll Tax Act is not going to pass. What is the probability, in case the act is not passed, of

this $155,000 going back to the G.N.W.T. revolving fund? Would that be the case if the Payroll Tax Act is not passed through this House? Thank you.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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John Pollard Hay River

If the Payroll Tax Act is not passed by this House, then I cannot say that that $155,000 is going back into the pot because it will be largely spent, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

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Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, I believe the problem is that the Standing Committee on Finance did not deal with this particular issue, questioning the need for $155,000 for implementation of the Payroll Taxation Act when the bill of the Payroll Tax Act has not passed through this House. The other problem that they had is that the payroll tax bill had been given to the Standing Committee on Finance and it is my understanding that the Standing Committee on Finance has decided to hold public meetings on the payroll tax. The results of the public meetings will determine whether the payroll tax is to be passed. I believe the problem for the Members is having to approve this funding recognizing we have no act in place.

We would like to ask the Minister if there are alternative measures. I know that the only way to actually deal with this through the process of the House, is to delete this from the supp, recognizing that he has expended some of the funding for development of legislation for developing forms. Other than the special warrant, is there another method that the Minister would suggest to address the dilemma that the Standing Committee on Finance is in? Thank you.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, without the authority to spend the money, I could not do that. There is no other way to do it within the Department of Finance and I would be acting improperly if I went away and spent other money and ended up short at the end of the year. Putting in a 1-800 number and having somebody there ready to answer questions that people are going to ask us about this particular tax, is important at this present time. We think it is important to be in a position to implement this tax. I understand the reservations of some of the Members about the payroll tax, but I would point out to them, Mr. Chairman, that the payroll tax captures those people who are not paying income tax in the Northwest Territories, because they file outside of the Northwest Territories on December 31 of each year. The bill that we passed early today Mr. Chairman, merely raises the personal income tax of people who live in the Northwest Territories. The other option that I have to get funds, is to come back and look at those personal income taxes again, but that would not capture those people who are earning a living in the Northwest Territories and are not paying tax here. That is why I feel that ultimately the committee will see that this is a wiser way to go and it does close the net on those people who are not paying any tax in the Northwest Territories.

The other thing that I would point out to the committee is that, because of the lag time on the payroll tax versus the tax credit system, this payroll tax bill will actually mean somewhere in the region of nine to ten million dollars to us next year and we will be short that money if that bill does not pass. Knowing all those details, and I fully understand that the Members of this committee have not had the payroll tax explained to them in detail yet, I see that ultimately this Legislative Assembly will approve that payroll tax and I would like therefore, to be bold and ask for the Members to approve the $155,000, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

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Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman with regard to this item, I would like to ask the Minister whether or not that .3 person year is required? Is most of all payroll tax of employees not done by computers? It is just a matter of increasing by one per cent.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

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John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, this person would be setting up the systems for the implementation of the payroll tax. This person would by answering a 1-800 number, so that employers wanting to find out more information on the payroll tax would be able to make a call and get that particular information. Yes, I think it is important that we get this .3 person year so that all those things can be in place and that there is somebody who is familiar with the tax that is available to people from across the Northwest Territories to provide them with information. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Are there any other general questions with regard to tax administration. Mr. Ningark.

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John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I hate to prejudge any issues before they happen, but the people across the territories are adamant about tax increases in any form or size. Also, I understand that the way to tax the transients, as people move in and out of the territories, is through payroll tax. This is given under the Charter of Rights and Freedom where the freedom of mobility is given. I understand clearly that most of the Members are instructed by different constituencies not to support any type of tax increase.

Going back to some of the Members' concerns, we are assuming that the payroll tax has passed. I would hate to approve that amount of money, prejudging that it would be passed. I am not comfortable with passing this appropriation at this point in time. Thank you.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Any other general comments? Tax administration. Mr. Antoine.

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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Mr. Chairman, I would like to defer this particular activity until the end of the supp. We will come back to this later to give us a chance to see what we can do about it. Thank you.

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Does the committee agree that we defer this particular item and go on with the other matters? Agreed?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

We will consider it at the conclusion of this particular review. Agreed?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Culture and Communications

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Culture and Communications, operations and maintenance, language bureau, not previously authorized ($408,000). Agreed?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total department, not previously authorized, ($408,000). Agreed?

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Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Personnel

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The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Personnel operations and maintenance. Staffing, not previously authorized, ($42,500). Agreed? Mr. Zoe.

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Henry Zoe

Henry Zoe North Slave

Mr. Chairman, I am having problems with this whole question of decentralization. I am not to sure how I should be dealing with this, if I should be putting a motion forward at this time or not. A lot of money is being requested, I do not know the total amount, is it $10 million? This is to implement this decentralization plan. Mr. Chairman, I do not have too much against decentralizing. I support the initiative to decentralize, but not the communities to which the government is decentralizing. The five regions, Inuvik, Rankin, Iqaluit, Fort Smith and there is one that is the exception, Fort Simpson, which is not a regional centre.

These areas, Mr. Chairman, do not have a sluggish economy, as the Government Leader indicated in the statement that she made in this House. She said, "The decentralization program would assist in developing those centres which are more severely impacted by the sluggish economy. " Mr. Chairman, a number of Members in this House, for instance my friend from Kitikmeot and my other friend, Mr. Arngna'naaq, and other Members on this side of the House, have risen on a number of occasions saying that those communities that are selected are not that much worse off than our constituencies. Look at Mr. Arngna'naaq's riding, Rankin is their regional centre. The government is proposing to move 33 PYs over there. I use that as an example. That is why my friend Mr. Arngna'naaq has been saying that he has no problem with this decentralizing either, except that it is going to the wrong places. The rationale given to us by this government does not persuade me or my other colleagues. It does to some Members who represent those communities selected, like Iqaluit, Inuvik, Rankin Inlet, and others. For those reasons, those Members like myself have concern.

The economy of those areas is worse than those five communities that were selected by this government. Time and time again, I have rattled off statistics and reports. All types of information that our own government produces I have brought to this House so that the Members from that side of the House would understand what I am trying to say. Our economy, in our small communities, is worse than in those five communities that this government selected to decentralize to. I still do not understand why those particular regional centres were selected when they are not hurting nearly as much as other communities. That is why I have been raising this concern with the Government Leader, with the Minister of Finance, and the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism and others on that side of the House, telling them that the economy in some of our small communities is worse off. If you are going to decentralize, do it in the appropriate places where they are hurting, as the government and its own statistics indicate.

I am committed to decentralizing, but to the right places; not to the areas that are not as hurt as the small communities that we represent, like the Kitikmeot and Keewatin areas. They should have decentralized to the communities other than the regional centres. Then it would be more appropriate to say that their economy is sluggish. That is why they are moving those positions and programs over there. That is why I am having a problem approving money to do these things. On one hand, I am in support of decentralization. On the other hand, I am against it because they are moving it to the wrong communities. The Members representing those communities are not going to argue with the government or raise the same concerns as we are, because it is going to one of their communities.

In the Executive, they are all going to be supportive of one another because it is a government initiative. That is why I am having problems approving money on one hand to go to these particular communities and some money for headquarters to move all these programs and PYs out. I am hesitant to even approve money at this point in time, particularly to the decentralization program. I also ask to see the plan. How are they going to do things? How much is it going to cost us? They have not given us anything in this House. The example I used in Rankin Inlet, Mr. Chairman, of 33 PYs, is going to boost the community, but the community that they are boosting is not hurting as much as Baker Lake, Arviat, Whale Cove, or the others. It is going to create more opportunity for that particular community because it will require office space for 33 PYs. Mr. Chairman, the dilemma right now is to vote, abstain or vote against all the money the government is asking for in this whole area of decentralization. Mr. Bernhardt, Mr. Arngna'naaq, myself and other Members of this House indicated that they are not too happy with what the government is doing in the area of decentralization. It is all going to the wrong places. So I am reluctant, at this point, to even approve the money that the government is asking for. It is making it difficult for myself and a lot of other Members. Even the Members from Yellowknife have some concerns with regard to this whole initiative of this government. Mr. Chairman, I know I have said my piece now with regard to the money the government is asking for us to approve and I do not know if I will be supporting the money for the bill as a whole, but I will leave it at that for now.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Zoe. Personnel, operations and maintenance, staffing not previously authorized $42,500. Mr. Koe.

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Fred Koe Inuvik

Yes, I just cannot let the moment go by without saying anything as one of the communities that is affected positively by this bill. The Member, my colleague here, has expressed his opinion, and it was a nice eloquent statement. I have some problems when he says that money and personnel are going to wrong communities. I think it is his own opinion and from his perspective. From my perspective, the initiative is good. I think it is a start and that we have to keep going. It is an initial thrust of this government to do the things that we asked them to do and I would hope there is more to come. My understanding is that there will be some movement between regional centres and the smaller communities. So we have to get some things out of the major centres into the smaller communities. I think we all agree with that. I also disagree with statements saying that these major communities are not hurting because I know in Inuvik there is nothing moving, nothing happening. There is no industry, no major capital initiative and the small influx of 10 PYs is a boost to a community like mine. I cannot let statements be made without giving some defence of my situation and the people I represent. Thank you.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Koe. On page 3 of the 1992-93 Supplementary Appropriation, page 10, pardon me, staffing, not previously authorized $42,500. Mr. Bernhardt.

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Ernie Bernhardt Kitikmeot

No, it is all right. Just go ahead.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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The Chair John Ningark

Mr. Minister, would you like to provide us with an explanation?

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John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, I was going to echo Mr. Koe's words. Do not tell me that Fort Simpson is not hurting, or Fort Smith, or Inuvik. I think the other thing the Member has to take into consideration is that when we do decentralize, we have to move to those places that have infrastructure and all of those places do.

As I have pointed out on the Standing Committee on Finance, when you move to those larger centres, you are creating strong regional centres that will ultimately create strong regions. Surely people must realize that when community transfer takes place, that is when those small communities will start to get some things going into them, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, the Member has to realize that Fort Simpson, is too big to be small and too small to be big. They have been having some terrible times in getting going and what we are trying to do is create a centre there that will get larger and will spill out into the rest of the region.

Another aspect that you have to take into consideration is that having these strong regional centres, Mr. Chairman, does provide for good transportation links, good transportation links surely are the basis of good economic development in those particular areas. I realize that the Member is frustrated.

I would point out that he is incorrect. Baker Lake was announced at the same time as decentralization, that it will be receiving a training program for airport fire fighters. So the Member is incorrect in saying that nothing is going to Baker Lake.

Also, Mr. Chairman, announced at this particular time was the fact that in Fort Smith we would support the maintenance facility for the C.L. 125s in Fort Smith, and that had nothing to do with decentralization. Mr. Chairman, we just took that opportunity to make those announcements.

What I am telling you is that this is part of an economic plan for the Northwest Territories and I would like to bring to the floor of the House the fact that the Member who has just been speaking, Mr. Zoe, is only days away -- his Dogrib Nation -- is only days away from signing a major deal with a Crown corporation of this particular government in which there will be ownership by the Dogrib Nation of two hydro dams in the Northwest Territories in that region. There will be tremendous spin-offs from that, Mr. Chairman, not only for the Dogrib Nation, but for this particular area as well.

So the Member may be disappointed that he is not getting anything decentralized to his area but he is featuring in another aspect of our economic plan which is the ownership, the operation, and the maintenance of two hydro systems from which we will buy power. It is not as though they are going to build them and we are going to haggle about the power. We are committed to buying the power from those two projects and I anticipate that that will give major economic stimulus to the Dogrib area.

I will not go any further, Mr. Chairman, but I would like to point out those facts. There are other things going on in the Northwest Territories that may not be contained in this decentralization plan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 314

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Bernhardt and Mr. Antoine. Mr. Bernhardt.

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Ernie Bernhardt Kitikmeot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Pollard, you made reference to strong regional centres like Iqaluit, Rankin Inlet, Inuvik, Simpson, Fort Smith. Mr. Minister, what do you classify the Kitikmeot region as? We have a regional centre. Can I ask your opinion? What do you think of our region? Are we strong or are we still crawling? Are we too weak to stand on our own two feet and get government PYs?

For your information too, Mr. Minister, you made reference to transportation links. I want to bring you up to date on the transportation services Cambridge Bay has. They have N.W.T. Air or Air Canada, they have Canadian Airlines and they have First Air. For Coppermine, we have First Air and Ptarmigan. So, some of these things, although I support you on decentralization, I would be happy just to get a wee, wee bit of PYs for my region.

A good example would be Arctic airports in Cambridge Bay, if you have not decided where to put it. We have the environmental weather station there, you know those things with the balloons that they send out? We have that. We have the D.E.W. Line, Cam Main, and surely we are not in short supply of accommodations. We have a Co-op Store, we have the Bay, and it is a regional centre. I want your honest opinion, what do you classify the Kitikmeot as? What kind of region?

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 315

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Page 10, Personnel, operations and maintenance. Mr. Antoine.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to comment on this particular discussion of decentralization. I understand what the government intended to do by decentralizing some departments to certain communities. I understand the concern of my colleagues, Mr. Bernhardt and Mr. Zoe. I want to add to the debate that it is good for Fort Simpson that this decentralization is coming. Economically, this added 12 to 14 PYs to Fort Simpson. Therefore, you have spinoffs for more money flowing into the community. If you look at it in those terms, there are economic endeavours by this government happening in other parts of the north, like the N.W.T. Power Corporation deal with Mr. Zoe's constituency. Economically, this will help the region. It is the same as adding PYs to certain communities. This will help the economy. That is one front.

The other front is the political matter of trying to set up major political centres. It is good to do that, but at the same time we are venturing into political development which is related to constitutional development. We are dealing with that on a different front with the Nunavut Political Accord as well as the Western Constitutional Development. That will play a role in developing these constitutions in the long run by setting up strong political government centres. This will play a role in the requiem. This is the initial thrust of this government to be decentralized. If there is going to be any further decentralization, all these different concerns should be taken into consideration. It is good that we are getting some of these PYs into my community. However, you have to think of the other constituencies as well. I see these on two fronts, the economic front as well as the political. Thank you.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 315

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. I wonder if the Minister would like to respond? Mr. Minister.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 315

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, I understand what the Member is saying. When I talked about strong regional centres, I was talking in the economic sense. I hope that it would not cause political problems to move positions to these particular areas. Particularly, we are hoping that a lot of these jobs will be filled by people in those communities who may not have the ability right now to do these jobs, but we will train them. It should not upset the balance politically too much if we get as many local people into those jobs as possible, Mr. Chairman. I do understand what the Member is saying. Thank you.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 315

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Are there any other general comments on the personnel? Mr. Gargan.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 315

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, under personnel staffing, it does say that there is a requirement of .5 PYs. What does it mean when you say that you have negotiated with the Union of Northern Workers and applied to staff affected by decentralization? What kind of effect are you actually talking about?

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 315

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 315

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, we just could not say to people, "Well, that is it. It is over. Your job is gone." There are about 90 people affected. There were decentralization support initiatives negotiated by the Minister of Personnel with the Union of Northern Workers. It was to apply to staff affected by decentralization. We have committed to seek other jobs for them if they do not want to move to those other communities. The .5 PYs is to coordinate that support that we are going to give those employees who may not wish to move and help them find other work, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 315

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. General comments on personnel staffing, $42,500. Mr. Ningark.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 315

John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Like many of my colleagues, I believe in giving more power to people we serve, to the regions, and to the communities. I believe in giving more programs to the regions and communities. I believe in giving more control to the regions, and subsequently to the communities within that region. We have nothing to lose here. In fact, we have a lot to gain from this. We have to begin somewhere. That somewhere is here. There is an initiative on the part of my constituents

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 315

John Ningark Natilikmiot

Mr. Chairman, the way in which I see it, we have nothing to lose here, in fact we have a lot to gain from this. We have to begin somewhere and that somewhere is here. There is an initiative on the part of my constituents to take over the programs, powers, and control of government services. The initiative and willingness is here in this government. For those reasons I support this appropriation. Thank you.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 315

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Personnel, operations and maintenance, staffing not previously authorized $42,500. Agreed?

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 315

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 315

The Chair Ludy Pudluk

Thank you. Employee benefits $193,000. Mr. Gargan.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 315

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This one is to provide funding for the increased costs of providing vacation travel assistance to the Northwest Territories Teachers' Association and senior management employees of the Government of the Northwest Territories, as a result of the imposition of the federal Goods and Services Tax on airfare. The tax is being imposed on everybody. What is this? Are we now providing for these people, who have the vacation travel assistance, that extra amount to cover the G.S.T.?

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 315

The Chair John Ningark

Mr. Minister.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 315

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, we are now paying out the vacation travel assistance to Northwest Territories Teachers' Association and senior management employees. We pay out the airfare and the equivalent amount of the G.S.T. that they would have to pay. The precedent has been set, Mr. Chairman and in the eyes of our Department of Justice, we were responsible for the G.S.T. as well. This is the reason for it, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 315

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 316

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Is this just an opinion by the Department of Justice or was there actually a challenge?

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 316

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 316

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, employees receiving cash pay out of V.T.A. have previously been provided with the cost of airfare, airport taxes and G.S.T. Of course when the invoice is not sent directly to the government for a plane ticket, if a regular person purchases from a travel agency or an airline, he has to pay the G.S.T. Since the precedent has been set with the other taxes, the Department of Justice believes that if this ever went to arbitration, we would lose this one, Mr. Chairman. So we are paying out the vacation travel assistance plus the G.S.T. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 316

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 316

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

I am not a lawyer, but as a private citizen I would say that this is unfair. I do not think the government should be in a position to start paying G.S.T. for employees, when they cannot give the same break to the general public. I find this unfair. I do not know how the heck you can possibly say that you are going to lose this case, if it is based on fairness. I cannot find this possible.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 316

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you very much, Mr. Gargan. I would like to remind all the Members that this is a public forum and that they should watch their language. Mr. Minister.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 316

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we think it is a way of being fair with our employees. They are entitled to vacation travel assistance and when we were issuing travel warrants there was no G.S.T. to be paid. Now that we are issuing cash payment, then you can in effect say that their airfare would be discounted by seven per cent if we did not pay the G.S.T. We do pay the cost of airfare, plus airport taxes. We have paid these airport taxes before and have always done that. In our opinion, we have set a precedent and we are paying a benefit to an employee and that benefit will be taxed. Therefore, in the opinion of the Department of Justice, if it did go to arbitration, it would come down in favour of the employees. We are requesting to pay the seven per cent G.S.T., Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 316

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 316

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a motion.

Bill 14: Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93
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Page 316

The Chair John Ningark

Proceed, Mr. Gargan.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, I move that under the Personnel employee benefits, we delete the not previously authorized $193,000. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you, Mr. Gargan. We need to make copies of your motion, and we also need it translated in the appropriate languages of this House. Would you provide the committee with the written motion, Mr. Gargan? For the time being, we will defer this page and move on. We will get back to this page when we get Mr. Gargan's motion in writing. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Justice

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Page 11, Justice, operations and maintenance, directorate, not previously authorized $20,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Police services, not previously authorized $1.722 million. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Legal aid, not previously authorized $62,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

The Chair John Ningark

Page 12, Appropriation Act, No. 3, Justice, operation and maintenance, lawyer support services, not previously authorized $15,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Registrars and court services, not previously authorized $137,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Registration, court services, not previously authorized $137,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Total department $1.956 million. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Safety And Public Services

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 316

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Page 13 of the Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, Safety and Public

Services, operations and maintenance, Public Utilities Board, not previously authorized $108,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Total department $108,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Government Services

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Page 14, Government Services, operations and maintenance, systems and computer services, not previously authorized $80,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Public Works

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Page 15, Public Works, total department $80,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Page 15, Public Works, operations and maintenance, accommodation services, not previously authorized $78,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Utilities $752,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Total department $830,000. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, with regard to page 15, on the amount for $752,000, can the Minister indicate what has been the overall percentage increase over the last year? Why were these estimates not forecast in the main estimates? Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, each year we anticipate inflationary increases such as these in our estimates. We do it by way of having supp reserves for inflation in our fiscal framework. That is where we are taking the $10 million from. It is from money that we set aside earlier this year. It is not unusual for us to anticipate that there are going to be some inflationary measures. Much of the increases that are contained in this particular amount, in excess of $752,000, relate to items we did not know about at the time we put the O & M budget together. The Department of Public Works did not know about it. It has caught up with us since then. Some of them we did not know about until April 1, 1992. That was for Lutsel K'e and for Taloyoak. It was October, 1992, and November 1, 1992 for petroleum products. When we put the O & M budget together we did not know about those increases, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Utilities $752,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Total department $830,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Transportation

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Page 16, Transportation, operations and maintenance, directorate, not previously authorized $231,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Highway operations $32,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Arctic airports, not previously authorized $225,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Total department $488,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Renewable Resources

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 317

The Chair John Ningark

Thank you. Page 17, Renewable Resources, operations and maintenance, wildlife management, not previously authorized $63,000. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

I would like to ask the Minister, what type of surveillance are we getting for the bison-free zone for $63,000?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, the surveillance cost consists of removal costs for bison in the zone, the rental of infrared equipment, weekly flights, bi-weekly snow machine patrols and a bison-free management area survey. Costs are expected to amount to $103,000, Mr. Chairman, for the 1992-93 winter season. The federal government will commit $40,000 of those dollars to the monitoring for the 1992-93 season. That is what it will entail, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister indicate to me who is doing this work? Is it the Department of Renewable Resources?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, I will defer to the Minister of Renewable Resources on that detail. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are doing helicopter surveillance of that area. Contacting a helicopter company will be done by the department. We are asking the hunters and trappers of that area to do snowmobile surveillance. The removal of bison will be done by the department using whatever means appropriate at that time, whether it is helicopter, boats in the summertime, or both, and snowmobiles in the wintertime. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

Fred Koe Inuvik

Is this not the open area where any bison seen in that area is available for hunters?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you. That is correct. It is right across from the reserve on the other side of Fort Providence. It is stretched between Hay River down to across from Fort Providence.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

Fred Koe Inuvik

Just a comment. This $63,000 buys quite a lot of shells and gas. We should be making a deal with the hunters' and trappers' associations in that group. There are a lot of hunters and trappers in that area. It would be wise for the department to negotiate with the organizations down there to do this surveillance rather than hiring helicopters or whatever winged aircraft you are going to use for surveillance.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will try to use as much as possible the local hunters' and trappers' associations. We will solicit their advice on how to monitor that area. If we do not have to use helicopters, then we will not use helicopters.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the Minister of Renewable Resources, when I was in Trout Lake on November 27, I was told by people there that they saw about three or four buffalo northeast of Trout Lake. They were surprised, so they came back and informed the renewable resources officer out of Fort Simpson. The renewable resources officer flew into Trout Lake and went out there, but the buffalo had moved on. That is a lot of money to spend on that. What I instructed the people to do is, next time they see them, just drop them. Is that a correct way to deal with this situation and save money at the same time?

---Laughter

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is what we said in our announcement, but let the department know after the animal has been eliminated.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

So the next time I am talking to Joe Punch or someone from Trout Lake, I will tell him the Minister's words here. He can go ahead and do it, then. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Wildlife management, not previously authorized $63,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Forest fire management, not previously authorized $770,000. Mr. Gargan.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just on observation; this summer, I thought we had the worst fire season. It was pretty quiet and not the worst but people were staying home because there was a lot of water. I thought that we did not have a bad fire season, in the area of economics, but we still managed to have an overrun. I am just wondering, how did we manage to do that?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 318

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, the department expended $7,478,000 in their suppression task expenditure this year. Their current budget in that particular area is $7,028,000, so they were short $450,000. It was a below average fire season. The number of fires recorded was 285, Mr. Chairman, in comparison to 331 fires in 1991-92. Of course, it depends on where those fires are, Mr. Chairman. The number of fires per year is only a variable influence in the amount of suppression activity. The actual expenditure in particular years goes up and down like crazy, Mr. Chairman, and I have to tell you that I was really pleased that they came in at requiring an extra $450,000 because it is usually a lot more than that. If you

want further information, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that the Minister of Renewable Resources provide it.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Any other questions or comments? Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, can I ask the Minister what actually did cause the overrun of $770,000, recognizing that fires were down from 331 the previous year?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, I would not want to mislead the House. We do not know from year to year how much is going to be required for fire suppression. All the $7,028,000 is, is a holding figure, not an actual hard and fast number. I will let the Minister respond with the details. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Allooloo.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In short, the pre-suppression spent an excess of $450,000, I am sorry, the fire-suppression spent an excess of $450,000 and the pre-suppression had a $320,000 deficit, totalling $770,000. Like the Minister of Finance said, the department has not been allowed to account for increased cost and increased wages because the government does not know how much money the fire operation will need at any particular time. Since the negotiated agreement between the federal government and the territorial government, the holding figure has not changed. In the meantime, supply costs, manpower costs, helicopter time and aircraft time have gone up but the base holding figure has not changed. That is probably the reason why we had an over expenditure. If we had been allowed to take those things into account then we would probably have had some money left over. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, if the holding figure has not changed why is it that the government did not negotiate that this increase to many of the different demands placed on pre-suppression and fire suppression be included in the expenditures? I am just thinking that last year, I believe, there was a three million dollar request to the supp and now it is practically three-quarters of a million dollars. It just does not seem that the department can forecast a figure and stay within that budget amount. If it is through bad negotiations why does the territorial government not go back to the federal government to reflect the needed costs that have increased over the years since it took over the responsibility of fire management? Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister, Mr. Allooloo.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

Titus Allooloo Amittuq

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The negotiated increase was built in. It worked in with the formula financing that the Department of Finance negotiates. It is built in there but the department itself has not been allowed to increase it that much. Overall, the government gets the

increase because of the forest fire contract agreement. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

So is the Minister indicating to this House that we can get the $770,000 overrun back from the federal government?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister, Mr. Pollard.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, when this transfer was negotiated with the federal government, there was a three year timeframe after the transfer just in case the negotiations had not gone correctly. Those three years have expired and the base transfer that was made to this government is in the form of the funding agreement now and has escalated each year by whatever escalation we get because of the formula. No, there is no chance of us going back to the federal government and asking them to pay this $700,000, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, I thought there was a timeframe placed on the transfer of that particular program. I still have not received an answer from the Minister indicating why were they short in pre-suppression for $320,000 and they exceeded fire suppression by $450,000, requesting the increase in the appropriation for $770,000. In fire suppression, was this excess of $450,000 due to wages? If its negotiated wages increased, why was that not in the budget forecast? Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, with regard to the pre-suppression budget, there is a Mutual Aid Resource Sharing (M.A.R.S.) Agreement with other jurisdictions. Other jurisdictions this year required little assistance from us because they had low fire risk and so it was forecast that we would receive $700,000 from that M.A.R.S. Agreement and we did not receive that amount. The department recovered only $380,000 through that agreement and they were left with a shortfall of $320,000. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister if they are taking any measures to try to come in with the forecast budget with regard to fire and pre-fire suppression on their expenditures, particularly when it is a fairly quiet fire season. What measures is the department going to take to ensure that they can come in within their forecasted budget?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Mr. Pollard.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, was that on the pre-suppression the Member was asking the question?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 319

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 320

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Both on pre-suppression and suppression, on overall fire management.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 320

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Pollard. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 320

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, we have to have a certain number of people and a certain amount of assets; aircraft, etc., deployed at various locations and that includes their pumps and other equipment they use to fight fires. So, the pre-suppression budget is fairly well fixed, based on the level of assets that they place around the Northwest Territories.

It is based on years and years of experience of what has happened before. Once the fire season starts though, I think that is where it gets even worse to try to forecast because whether it is going to be a high year, or a low year, is hard for the department to say. Once you do get into it, they know that they have some $7 million there and it is just a question of what the weather does and whether or not there are a lot of fires.

I can give you some examples, Mr. Chairman. The fire season for 1989-90 was a record high. In the actual expenditures, in suppression, were $16.793 million. The main estimates were only $8.312 million, so in a very high year, it was double. In an above average year, such as 1990-91, they actually expended $10.523 million and the main estimates, again, had a holding figure of $8.313 million. In a below average year, which is what 1992-93 was, they came very close at $450,000.

So, in the pre-suppression, you deploy assets and you can get a good handle on that amount of money. I would point out that they get it net. In other words, if they say they are going to earn $700,000 through the M.A.R.S. Agreement, then they get the pre-suppression budget at less the $700,000. That is why we are topping it up by $320,000 this year, Mr. Chairman.

As I say, that depends on the contracts and the number of people and equipment you want to deploy. After that, for the suppression, it depends on the weather and the kind of fire season that it was. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 320

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 320

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

You know, Mr. Chairman, I asked the Minister as to what type of measures they could look at developing in order to come in within that projected amount that they have received as a result of the transfer and I do not seem to be hearing what I was hoping to hear. They go on the amount of fires that are happening in the N.W.T., or the type of fire season that we are having. I recognize that many of the contracts with pre-suppression are fixed; I fully recognize that. However, in order to look at fire suppression which have been in excess, measures should be taken and I strongly believe that consideration for contracts privatizing fire suppression would be a way of saving many dollars for the Government of the N.W.T. and the Department of Renewable Resources.

I know that there are many contracts, particularly with different bands in the South Slave area that are into fighting fires on behalf of the Department of Renewable Resources for fire suppression. However, there has been no concerted effort on

the part of the Department of Renewable Resources to try to increase that or to try to address that particular area.

I am sure if the government looked at that without the increased wage amount it would have to look at that on a continual basis for fire seasons, then probably it will save dollars and allow maximum use of resources within the communities. Without looking at having to forecast projected surpluses and overruns every year, I think this government should look at developing measures to address this.

You cannot say it is because of the weather. There are other ways to cut cost, and I do not think this department is hearing that. When you take a fire crew out with the Government of the N.W.T.'s fire crew, there are many times that they sit out in a camp for weeks waiting for a fire to happen. You have all these tanker bases that you have built but I do not think you place the operation and maintenance costs in your budget to address these infrastructure costs that you placed in the different communities.

If you privatize it, these camps will not be sitting in those areas for a couple of weeks waiting for a fire to happen. That is exactly what you do now and it does cost a lot of money. I hear concerns expressed by many people across the territories that there is something like a gathering where people are playing pool all the time waiting for fires to happen and yet these people are getting paid. I recognize the Minister is doing a fire management review, but I do not think it will be a component of the review whether they are utilizing their dollars effectively. I believe that other measures have to be looked at to try to avoid a continual overrun. One of these years we are not going to have the money to address a bad fire season. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 320

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 320

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, the Department of Renewable Resources has submitted to the Financial Management Board terms of reference for a review of its Fire Management Policy and program. The terms of reference were approved by F.M.B. in November, Mr. Chairman, and focus specifically on what changes are needed to increase the proportion of local labour versus equipment, where aircraft are required, to increase the use of local air carriers, and to become less reliant on the larger water fire retardant aircraft. The review is underway and it is due to be reported back to us by May 31 of next year, so the department is looking at this aspect of fire fighting. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 320

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Any other general questions? Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 320

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

I just have one comment, Mr. Chairman, and I know it is not with regard to this particular supp. Since the Minister indicated the fire management review will be completed by May 31, I certainly hope the department makes every effort to try to complete this review prior to May 31, recognizing some of the problems that keeping with their forecasted budget causes them. I am sure with the information they have they could probably try to complete that review prior to the end of May. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 320

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

John Pollard Hay River

I am advised by the Minister of Renewable Resources that they will indeed make every effort to report early, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. General questions? Mr. Ningark.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have no problem with the $450,000 fire suppression disbursement. I have a problem with the pre-suppression $320,000. I know there is no way one can predict that one is going to have fires in the coming season. The pre-suppression of $320,000 is preparing for the season. If the $450,000 and $320,000 were under the fire suppression program, I would have no problem. The second point I would like to make is that, in the accounting school of thought, they emphasize that if you want to prepare a budget, you have to look at two things: relatively low and relatively high fire seasons. Given that scenario, you have to look at the lower season for fires and you have to look at the worst case scenario in case you have a high fire season. My suggestion to the Minister of Finance would be to average your low years and your high years for fires. Has that scenario ever been looked at when making projections and preparing a budget? I know we cannot tell how the summer is going to be in terms of fires. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, the Member is correct that the $8 million is the average that was negotiated with the federal government. Although it is not being used in our budgeting process right now, I will take the Member's comments and see if that will fit into the process. With regard to the $320,000, it was a shortfall. The department anticipated providing services to other areas of Canada or the United States in the amount of some $700,000 for the use of fire fighting equipment. This year, there was a low fire risk in those other areas, so they did not use our equipment as much as they usually do. It was a shortfall in the $700,000 of the amount of $320,000. It was revenue that the department did not earn that it would normally have earned, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Forest fire management, not previously authorized $770,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total department, not previously authorized $833,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Health

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Health, operations and maintenance. Mr. Gargan.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, can we return to Personnel?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

I believe that the committee agreed that we would deal with the motions at the end. We will continue and return after we have concluded. There are two motions that are coming forward. Mr. Antoine and Mr. Gargan are proposing to deal with motions dealing with two different sections. Mr. Gargan.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the committee if we could return to Personnel to deal with that motion.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Does the committee agree that we return to Personnel?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Department Of Personnel

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that the details of the Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93, for the program Personnel, under the activity employee benefits, in the amount of $193,000, be deleted.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. I have received the amendment. The amendment is now being circulated. The motion is in order. For the record, the motion reads, "I move that the detail of the Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93, for the program Personnel, under the activity employee benefits, in the amount of $193,000, be deleted". To the motion. Mr. Gargan.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, the government has already responded to that. It is to cover the G.S.T. costs of employees' vacation travel assistance. The government has already said that it covers the tax for travel on those, too. They have already set a precedent. It is because of that they had to cover the G.S.T. too. The employees could take them to court. If they do, it is based on the precedent, not on whether or not they have the right to cover those for the employees. Everyone in the country pays G.S.T. For the less fortunate people, it is good to get G.S.T. money back. However, we are not talking about less fortunate people here. We are talking about people who have good jobs. The G.S.T. covered is on benefits. It is not part of their salary. It is over and above what they get. I do not think that ordinary people who do not work for the government are given that kind of privilege. I do not think we should be paying it. If the teachers' association is not happy with that, by all means, take the government to court. The possibility is that it will lose both cases, both the tax law and the G.S.T. I do not wish to see it as an expenditure, when we really do not know whether or not we should allow that kind of cover when everybody else has to be tightening the belt and paying.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 321

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. To the motion, Mr. Ningark.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, if this amount of $193,000 was not negotiated through the N.W.T. Teachers' Association, I would be supporting the motion. One of the reasons being is the reason he has stated, that the poor people are paying the G.S.T., and the students of those teachers that are not paying this G.S.T. do pay when they go out on holidays with their parents during the Christmas season. I will be supporting the motion. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

To the Motion. Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My understanding of this particular employee benefit for $193,000, if the Minister could correct me here, is that the members of the Northwest Territories Teachers' Association and some senior management employees are taking their vacation travel assistance in cash and want to travel south and they are charged G.S.T. If these people know they are going to travel south, why can they not use travel warrants under the government? That way they do not have to pay the G.S.T. Rather than taking the cash and getting charged, why can they not use travel warrants and not get charged? That would take care of this particular problem.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. To the motion, Mr. Kakfwi.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, I think the short of it is that it can go to arbitration and we will come back with a supp later. This is all subject to negotiations and I think this is part of the benefits that are part of the negotiations. If we had previously included this as part of the benefits, then it makes it impossible to say it is not all included. It is part of the negotiations that led up to the collective agreements in the past. I think that is an important point to make and Mr. Antoine says we should go back to administering it ourselves. We are trying to get out of it so we do not have to do all the paper work, trying to cut the administrative costs. That is why we are trying to get out of it. Also, we thought it was a good benefit because the benefit is not flowing and I think we have to get rid of the impression that these are all southern hires. These are mostly our own people we are talking about. We are trying to give them the benefit of travelling up here and some flexibility in the use of this benefit. So I wanted to add this.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Mr. Kakfwi, the microphone.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

I am sorry. The reason it was not included in the first place was just to see if technically there was some point to be made. So we did not include it while we referred the matter to Justice to get an opinion whether legally, technically, by the wording in the collective agreement, we are bound to cover the cost of G.S.T. The opinion is that we are bound to cover G.S.T. because we have done it previously, using the words that we are trying to dance around with in the collective agreement. So that is why it is inserted now. If we had an opinion earlier, then it would have been included. It would not have been coming here as a supp.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you, Mr. Kakfwi. To the motion. Mr. Ningark.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

John Ningark Natilikmiot

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as I stated in my initial remarks to this motion, if it is not done through the N.W.T. Teachers' Association negotiations, then I would support the motion. If it is being negotiated then I will not be comfortable in supporting that. Did I hear right? It is done through the negotiation? This $193,000?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, the employees affected by this will all say that it was included and understood to be part of the negotiations.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Antoine, to the motion to delete.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Once again, I just wanted to hear from the Minister if I was correct when I was saying that the $193,000 here in employee benefits, is to cover the Federal Goods and Services Tax on air fares for members of the Northwest Territories Teachers' Association and some senior management employees of the Government of the Northwest Territories. If they take the vacation travel assistance in cash, like the new thing that we have done to benefit northern people more to go out on the land and so forth, if these people take their vacation travel in cash and they want to pay their own air fare down south, then the G.S.T. is added. I correct in saying that? If they use the existing government travel warrant then they are not going to have G.S.T. applied to them. Is it correct?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Just on a matter of process. It is not normal on a matter of a motion to delete, or any motion, to be asking questions, or having dialogue back and forth. I just want to remind Members of that. I am not going to suggest you do not do it but the matter before us is a matter to delete, so I just want you to be aware of that. Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand that, but then in order to deliberate over this motion, I need to be clear as to what I am voting on. That is the reason why I am asking these questions.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

No, I am not suggesting for one moment that you not ask questions but I do say that the matter is clear. It is a matter to delete. One has to be convinced of deleting, yes or no, and, Mr. Minister, you may choose to answer in your response to the motion to delete.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 322

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Yes, I would just like to make the point again. Even if they used it for other types of service apart from airfare, they would be obliged to pay G.S.T. In any case, the point still remains that because of the change in terminology in the collective agreement, are we obliged to include the G.S.T. when we pay the V.T.A. to the employees? In previous practices the answer was yes because it meant economy airfare plus taxes. The new agreement talks about economy airfare. That is why the question was referred by us back to Justice to ask whether we are able to not pay the G.S.T. on behalf of the employees when we pay a cash pay out. Our own advice was that no we cannot because we have already been in the practice. Our own interpretation of economy airfare includes the G.S.T. Whether you delete it now or not, I think just delays a fight somewhere down the road where it will be put to the test. Our advice is that we are going to lose so we should include it. It is unfortunate that we did

not get that opinion earlier so that we would not have had to debate it here.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 323

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

To the motion. Mr. Patterson.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 323

Dennis Patterson Iqaluit

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I believe that some Members are concerned that this is a benefit that certainly is not available to the average constituent. This is something that we would like all our constituents to have. I sense in some of the Members' comments that there is a resentment in the idea of a select group of people getting such a benefit when it is not available to the hunters, students or people who do not have the privilege of being a public servant. That is a fair view, Mr. Chairman. I would caution the Members not to get those feelings of unfairness and injustice mixed up with the narrow question that is before us. That narrow question is having agreed to provide vacation travel assistance to our employees -- I will note that it is a lot less than in previous years because it is based on the excursion airfare, not the full fare -- having agreed to provide that benefit and having negotiated in good faith, is there an obligation on the part of the employer to pay all the costs? I think what Mr. Kakfwi is saying is the government has paid this cost in the past. In the opinion of our legal advisors we would not have a case to avoid paying the G.S.T. We would lose the arbitration. These arbitrations cost quite a bit of money. If only because of the previous practice of paying the G.S.T., we are stuck with it. If we are going to uphold the payment of the benefit, which has been negotiated in good faith, then we are stuck with this cost. Without commenting on whether or not we should be paying these kinds of benefits to civil servants, and not all of our constituents, it is my opinion that we would lose the arbitration. We should respect the opinion of the Department of Justice that there is no way out of this, and we should hold our nose and agree to pay this cost because we have no choice in fairness and in law.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 323

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Dent, to the motion to delete.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 323

Charles Dent

Charles Dent Yellowknife Frame Lake

Mr. Chairman, in spite of your advice a few minutes ago, in order to understand whether I should vote for or against the motion, I need to better understand the ramifications of a vote either way. With your indulgence I have a question I would like to pose, something which was referred to by the Member for Iqaluit. I was going to ask the Minister what is the cost of going to arbitration?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 323

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

To the motion to delete, Mr. Kakfwi.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 323

Stephen Kakfwi

Stephen Kakfwi Sahtu

Mr. Chairman, I think it is more a matter of whether you respect our opinion or not. We are actually sitting here in public, and I have already stated that we think we would lose arbitration. In our opinion, to go to it now is almost a foregone conclusion. If the Members want to do that we could. It will look a bit sloppy and all for naught. I think we are going to be back later before this committee, asking for probably another supp to cover the costs of paying out V.T.A. to the Union of Northern Workers. That is going to be a substantial amount. There are even a larger percentage of aboriginal and northern people on the payroll there. I try to understand a little bit about what the reason is, but it is awkward. It would have been included earlier but we asked for an internal opinion because we had the same sense as the Member had; if we did not have to, we should not. We are now of the opinion that we have to. We could do it today or a month or two from now. Our sense is that if we were to go to arbitration it would just be delaying the inevitable. Because we have negotiated rather difficult collective agreements this year, we should show some class and go into it holding our heads high and respect the spirit of the negotiations that were conducted earlier this year.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 323

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. To the motion to delete, Mr. Ningark.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 323

John Ningark Natilikmiot

Mr. Chairman. Now that I understand more about this $193,000 and I am aware that it has gone through arbitration, Mr. Chairman, I think there is imminent danger if this motion is passed. There will be more dispute and turmoil between the Teachers' Association and the G.N.W.T. So I will not be supporting the motion. Mr. Chairman, initially I asked if it was negotiated and now I understand that. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 323

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

To the motion. Mr. Gargan.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 323

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

The G.S.T. which everybody pays does not go to this government. It goes to the federal government. Most tax that we pay also goes to the federal government. By supporting this $193,000 it is just money that we are giving to the federal government. It is an expenditure that we are not getting back in any way, shape or form. Also, the other thing is that if you read the statement is says that it is vacation travel assistance to Northwest Territories Teachers' Association and senior management employees. Not everybody is benefiting from the approval of this amount. It is saying that some senior management people and the Teachers' Association are benefitting. That also means that the other employees of the G.N.W.T. are not benefitting out of this G.S.T. I think there are some inconsistencies on who receives this benefit. There is only a small group of people who are benefitting from this.

Mr. Chairman, the vacation travel assistance, everybody fills out a form and they get money for it. These are added money that goes to the employees, if they decide to choose to go to Edmonton on excursion airfare then the G.S.T. is covered, but it they decide to drive down and just keep the money, then that also means that they keep the G.S.T. that is also included in that assistance. I am glad it was not negotiated by the department because we have caught something here. We should be questioning, as Members, and saying whether or not it is fair that we allow certain employees of the government to be excluded from this G.S.T. and we do not allow that to happen to the rest of the general public. That is my point. I hope you support me.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 323

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. To the motion to delete.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 323

An Hon. Member

Question.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 323

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is defeated.

---Defeated

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Personnel, operations and maintenance, employees' benefits, not previously authorized $193,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total department, not previously authorized $235,500. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Health

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. We will return back to page 18. Health, operations and maintenance, administration, not previously authorized $95,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Medical care plan, not previously authorized $120,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Territorial hospital insurance services $501,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total department, not previously authorized $716,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Social Services

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Social Services, operations and maintenance, alcohol, drugs and community mental health, not previously authorized $705,000. Mr. Antoine.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

Jim Antoine Nahendeh

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is concern about the process that increases for the alcohol and drug workers' wages were introduced. It was first announced in the House and we were expected to approve it. I am wondering if this amount is going to increase annually. Does this reflect on the pay levels of the employees? I was asking to get a breakdown on $705,000. The concern is that we do not know how it is going to be implemented into the communities. We have many workers out there. They were very happy when they heard this because it took a long time to do it. It is long overdue. Is it going to be on a certain scale equivalent to other

workers in this area? Is this going to be increasing in the future as well? Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are currently 40 communities in the Northwest Territories where the alcohol and drug programs are. They are operated under the direction of local boards and agencies. The funding increase is based on the consumer price index of 17.01 per cent from April, 1988 to March, 1992. Those funds at that rate are being provided to those 40 organizations. They can do with that money as they see fit. We are suggesting to them that it is to assist them with their inflation rate salary increases since 1988. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Are there any other comments with regard to alcohol, drugs and community mental health, not previously authorized $705,000? Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Community and family support services, not previously authorized $670,000. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to question not particularly community and family support services, but the alcohol and drugs, community mental health. I recognize that the alcohol and drug workers' wages was introduced and passed. I did indicate to the Minister as a Member of the Standing Committee on Finance, that I was concerned about the process used for this increase. Basically, the fact that this wage increase was introduced and then they expected the committee to rubberstamp and approve the increase. I think that is wrong. I would ask that the government ensure that they advise the appropriate Ministers to be more considerate in the future. Now that I have said that comment, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask two questions. One is in regard to the increase. Are they going to ensure that payments to all workers will be given on seniority and experience and not just a lump sum payment overall, that they will be taking a wage parity approach to this increase? Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, although the 40 organizations that receive the funding from the G.N.W.T. submit budgets to the Department of Social Services, I am not sure that we can tell them exactly what to do with this increase that we are proposing for them. However, I will check into that and get back to the Member with regard to whether the department is going to make some suggestions, or whether it can make suggestions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 324

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, if the department was bold enough to suggest to many of the people who benefitted from the alcohol and drug contributions to place in the abstention clause that is in the alcohol and drug agreements,

then I cannot see why they cannot suggest and include in these contribution agreements to recognize the wage parity approach to this wage increase. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, as I said before, the indication to these organizations is going to be that this increase is for the inflationary salary increases. The point that I was making about whether or not we can actually dictate who gets how much in each organization is the point that I wanted to seek clarification on. There is no question that the organizations will be advised that this is for salary increases. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, the concern that I have had expressed to me is in the past when alcohol and drug wage salary increases were passed on to the different organizations, the salary increases were just equalized and added to the wages on an equalization basis. Some long-term alcohol and drug workers feel that this unfair. If there is some mechanism that this wage equalization can be looked at, it would be appreciated.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, I will pass on that comment to the Department of Social Services. Perhaps there is some way that point can be made to those organizations.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Community and family support services, not previously authorized $670,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total department, not previously authorized $1.375 million. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, operations and maintenance, not previously authorized $150,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total department $150,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Economic Development And Tourism

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Economic Development and Tourism, operations and maintenance, economic development agreement, not previously authorized ($150,000). Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total department, not previously authorized ($150,000). Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Education

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Education, operations and maintenance, advanced education, not previously authorized $42,500. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Schools, not previously authorized $408,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Arctic College, not previously authorized $1.011 million. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total department, not previously authorized $1.4615 million. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Personnel

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Personnel, capital, labour relations, not previously authorized $106,000. Mr. Whitford.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

Tony Whitford

Tony Whitford Yellowknife South

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The item to provide additional funding to purchase a house in Fort Simpson according to the N.W.T. employees' housing plan I was under the impression this government was getting out of the employee housing. I would like to find out from whom we are purchasing this and why.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Pollard.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 325

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this is an existing policy and it applies to this

particular community. The employee house purchase plan has been discontinued in level I communities which are Yellowknife, Hay River and Fort Smith. It is an existing policy that we have. Financial help is available for employees who have at least five years continuous service or they are leaving the G.N.W.T. or transferring to another community and are unable to sell their house on the local market at a fair price. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

I would like to ask whose house we are purchasing.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Pollard.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

John Pollard Hay River

The name is Mr. Colisimo, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

Fred Koe Inuvik

On the funding for the purchase of furniture relative to Rankin Inlet birthing project. Has this furniture already been purchased?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Pollard.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

John Pollard Hay River

No, the furniture has not been purchased, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Koe.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

Fred Koe Inuvik

If it has not been, will the purchase of this furniture go out for tender and will the five per cent local preference be waived?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Pollard.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, we will follow normal government practice in this although there may be some standing offer agreements in this regard. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Are there any other questions? Labour relations, not previously authorized $106,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total department, not previously authorized $106,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Government Services

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Government Services, capital systems and computer services, not previously authorized $95,000. Mr. Gargan.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, with regard to this one what are we talking about to provide funding for improvement to the Hay River telephone system related to decentralization initiatives? I thought the government was not into this business. We have communities that do not have those kinds of services.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

John Pollard Hay River

In this particular case, it is to improve the communications link out of Hay River as far as voice and

data transfer is concerned. It will upgrade the communication system. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Gargan.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Voice and communication data, what exactly is that?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

John Pollard Hay River

It is the communication system, the telephone system, the way they communicate either linking computers together or by passing data through the phone lines, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Any other questions? Mr. Gargan.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

So this is a one time allocation. You cannot restrict decentralization only to Hay River. You have decentralization to Inuvik, Iqaluit and Fort Simpson. Is this one time thing going to be showing up again in some other allocation or appropriation?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, the Member is correct. In this instance for Hay River it is only upgrading the voice and data capabilities. In Fort Simpson we will later require voice data and a printer upgrade. Fort Smith will require voice data computer hardware upgrade. Inuvik will require voice data computer hardware and printer upgrade. Iqaluit will require voice data computer hardware upgrade. Rankin Inlet will require voice data printer upgrade. So, yes, there will be others as they come along. I think the Member is saying it is not a one time cost. No, it is not, Mr. Chairman. In fact, Members may have seen over the years other occasions when there has been upgrade of computer systems in regional centres. As the systems get bigger and the requirements get bigger then they are upgraded periodically. There will be more coming forward, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Systems and computer services, not previously authorized $95,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total department $95,000. Agreed?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 326

Some Hon. Members

Agreed.

---Agreed

Department Of Public Works

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Public Works, capital, accommodation services, not previously authorized $10,000. Mr. Pollard.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, this relates only to the first one which is in Hay River. There will be other requirements for decentralization for office space. There will be some leases that will be negotiated and there will be a number of other things coming through for the other areas, yes, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Accommodation services, not previously authorized $10,000. Agreed?

--- Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total department, not previously authorized $10,000. Agreed?

--- Agreed

Department Of Renewable Resources

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Renewable Resources, capital field operations, not previously authorized $25,000. Agreed?

--- Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, can I ask the Minister why are they redesigning this office warehouse project? We just approved this project in this year's capital budget.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, what was approved was $475,000 in the 1993-94 budget. That is correct. The design that we have for the particular project though was in the $760,000 range. It was a larger project when it was first proposed for this particular community and so it has been down-sized somewhat and it is going to need redesign, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

To what degree has it been down-sized, Mr. Chairman, if I may ask?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you, Mr. Pollard.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, it was originally estimated at $760,000 and as I said before it is now at $475,000. My notes say that the department determined that a smaller office warehouse type building would be more practical. I do not have the details here but I would be willing to get the details and provide them to the Member.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Renewable Resources, capital, field operations. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

If this has been down-sized to a smaller office warehouse building and the initial budget allocation was approved for $760,000 am I clear in understanding the Minister that the requirement and the expenditure now for this office warehouse is only at $475,000? If that is the case why did they not take the $25,000 out of the initial capital budget to do the redesigning?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Pollard.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, at one point this had a heliport on it as well and it was going to be a full forward operating base. The airport is now going to be used as the base. The office warehouse is going to be smaller. Because it is going to go ahead in 1992-93, we need to do the redesign in this particular year, Mr. Chairman. We are doing the redesign now and asking in the capital budget for the appropriation which would come into effect April 1 next year. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Any general comments? Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

I can not recall in the initial budget what exactly were the fund amounts for the preliminary design. Does the Minister have the figure available?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Mr. Minister

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, there were no dollars allocated in 1992-93 in the capital estimates for this building and complex. It was designed some years ago and Members should recall Mr. Zoe complaining vehemently that it should not have been cut from his budget for his particular constituency. There were no dollars allocated in 1992-93 and it has been placed back in for construction in 1993-94. We need the dollars this year to do the redesign to enable construction to go ahead next year. Thank you.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Field operations, not previously authorized $25,000. Agreed?

---Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Total department, not previously authorized $25,000. Agreed?

--- Agreed

Department Of Municipal And Community Affairs

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Municipal and Community Affairs, capital, community works and capital planning, not previously authorized $80,000. Agreed?

--- Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 327

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Sport and recreation, not previously authorized $600,000. Agreed?

--- Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Total department $680,000. Agreed?

--- Agreed

Department Of Health

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Health, capital, territorial hospital insurance services, not previously authorized $76,000. Mr. Gargan.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

Samuel Gargan Deh Cho

Mr. Chairman, this is funding for the implementation and recommendation of the Abortion Service Review Committee. That is not capital, is it?

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Mr. Minister.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

John Pollard Hay River

Mr. Chairman, in Inuvik there is some one time capital costs of $67,000 required with an ongoing O & M of $15,000. So, there is $67,000. In Baffin, hospitals to provide abortion services, there is a requirement in January 1993 for $9,000 for a one time capital expenditure and $15,000 ongoing O & M.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you. Territorial hospital insurance services, not previously authorized $76,000. Agreed?

--- Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Total department, not previously authorized $76,000. Agreed?

--- Agreed

Department Of Education

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Education, capital, schools, not previously authorized $160,000. Agreed?

--- Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Arctic College, not previously authorized $100,000. Agreed?

--- Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Total department, not previously authorized $260,000. Agreed?

--- Agreed

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

Jeannie Marie-Jewell Thebacha

Mr. Chairman, I move that we report progress.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Motion is in order. Motion is not debatable. All those in favour of reporting progress? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

I shall rise and report progress. Thank you, Mr. Minister, and thank you, Mr. Voytilla.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

John Pollard Hay River

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee Motion 46-12(3): To Delete $193,000 Under Activity Employee Benefits, Personnel
Item 18: Consideration In Committee Of The Whole Of Bills And Other Matters

Page 328

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Item 19, Report of Committee of the Whole. Mr. Chairman.

Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 328

The Chair Richard Nerysoo

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Your committee has been considering Bills 1, 10, 13 and 14 and Committee Reports 1-12(3) and 4-12(3) and wishes to report progress with two motions being adopted. Bills 10 and 13 are ready for third reading and Bill 1 is ready for third reading as amended. Committee Reports 1-12(3) and 4-12(3) are concluded. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of the chairman of Committee of the Whole be concurred with.

Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole
Item 19: Report Of Committee Of The Whole

Page 328

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Is there a seconder to the motion? Mr. Dent. Motion is order. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion is carried.

---Carried

Item 20, Third Reading of Bills. Before I ask the Clerk to go forward with the orders of the day I want to remind Members that right after we close down tonight there will be the official swearing in of the two new Ministers. All Members are welcome to attend the swearing in. Item 21, Orders of the Day. Mr. Clerk.

Item 21: Orders Of The Day
Item 21: Orders Of The Day

Page 328

Clerk Of The House Mr. David Hamilton

Mr. Speaker, meetings this evening at 6:00 p.m. of the Standing Committee on Legislation, at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow of the full caucus, at 10:30 a.m. of the Ordinary Members' Caucus and at 12:00 noon of the Chairman's Liaison Committee. Orders of the day for Tuesday, December 8, 1992.

1. Prayer

2. Ministers' Statements

3. Members' Statements

4. Returns to Oral Questions

5. Oral Questions

6. Written Questions

7. Returns to Written Questions

8. Replies to Opening Address

9. Petitions

10. Reports of Standing and Special Committees

11. Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills

12. Tabling of Documents 13. Notices of Motion

14. Notices of Motions for First Reading of Bills

15. Motions

16. First Reading of Bills

17. Second Reading of Bills

- Bill 8, Payroll Tax Act

18. Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

- Tabled Document 2-12(3)

- Committee Report 3-12(3)

- Bill 14, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 3, 1992-93

- Appearance of the Languages Commissioner

19. Report of Committee of the Whole

20. Third Reading of Bills

- Bill 1, Appropriation Act, No. 1, 1992-93

- Bill 10, An Act to Amend the Income Tax Act

- Bill 13, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 4, 1991-92

21. Orders of the Day

Item 21: Orders Of The Day
Item 21: Orders Of The Day

Page 329

The Speaker Michael Ballantyne

Thank you, Mr. Clerk. This House stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. Tuesday, December 8, 1992.

---ADJOURNMENT