Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I did have a few comments in respect to the top part of page 19 on Arctic College. The authors of the report indicated that the campus structure of the college be rationalized. I totally agree with that recommendation. I just feel that, first of all, the college has evolved to the point where they have six campuses across the Territories, and I do not believe that our financial environment will allow us to continue in that route. I believe the structure of the college has to be rationalized for the amount of funding we are giving and going to be looking at in the future.

There is a lot of concern about the fact that there is duplication of courses being delivered at these colleges, and it is starting to not only cost a lot, but you are at times delivering the types of courses that could be delivered with different methods used. I take, for example, the social services course. Apparently there is one being delivered at Iqaluit campus and one at Thebacha, and I have been advised that the one in Iqaluit has good community concepts in the course, whereas the one at Thebacha has good theory concepts being delivered in the course, so they are not being delivered in the same fashion and in the same manner, and I think this must be somewhat difficult for people to decide what course they want to go and take.

I feel that the campus structure of the college has grown to the point where I do not think this government can afford to continue to keep dealing with Arctic College in the way that it has been. I think we have to look at the financial reality that we are in, and there is no doubt, in my opinion, that there should be only two colleges in the North. I have always said that. There should be one in the East and one in the West. Without hesitation, I state that the college in the West should be in Fort Smith because that is where it began.

Mr. Chairman, the other area I want to talk about is that the college is certainly looking at funding priorities for adult basic upgrading. I certainly find that with the high rate of illiteracy in the Territories, it is a necessity. I want to indicate that I certainly support the adult basic upgrading, but I do not believe that these adult basic upgrading courses should mean that there should be a campus at these locations. I am of the opinion that adult basic upgrading should be part of the school system program and question whether or not it should be part of Arctic College. This decision was made a few years ago.

Some of the problems I have come to recognize since this course has been placed in Arctic College are that it is encouragement for young students to drop out of school when they get to the grade 10 level, knowing that if they wait for a couple of years they can go to Arctic College and obtain access to the student programs which will pay them to learn. I think this is wrong. I believe we have to look at reconsidering whether or not the adult basic upgrading should be defined in criteria or look at the idea that it should stay with other grade levels as opposed to the secondary level of education. These are my comments on Arctic College, Mr. Chairman.

"Northwest Territories Way" Of Concern To Constituents

My comments with respect to health services and facilities, I am very, very concerned about the Department of Health being given the encouragement to continue with the "Northwest Territories Way." I have heard many concerns expressed by my constituents with regard to the implementation of the "Northwest Territories Way." They feel that the model for the delivery system and rationalization for hospital facilities is looked at totally with the idea to do away with some particular hospitals in the Territories that have been in place for years by downgrading them to small nursing stations. I do not think this is right. Further discussion of the "Northwest Territories Way" has to take place in this House because of the fact that it is a very important model being proposed by the health delivery system.

Mr. Chairman, as I go on to some of the comments with respect to page 19, it indicates at the bottom of the page some of the concerns regarding Ministers being disciplined, and the difficulty of having solidarity on cabinet. I have two different viewpoints on it. First of all, your solidarity on cabinet reflects the way the Government Leader runs cabinet. I can state without hesitation that I feel the current Government Leader has the loyalties needed and the solidarity of a cabinet team to run this government effectively, but I will not say that for the previous government. However, I want to stress that there has been a concern among Members to ensure the solidarity is followed through by cabinet Members. Cabinet Ministers must seriously consider submitting their undated letter of resignation to the Government Leader.

Motion That All Ministers Submit Undated Letters Of Resignation To Be Tabled In The House

With this comment, Mr. Chairman, I move the following motion: that all Members of cabinet submit their undated letter of resignation to the Government Leader; and further, that the Government Leader table all the letters.

The motion is in order and is now being distributed. To the motion. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I said earlier, it states in the report that there is insufficient focus of power within cabinet to maintain among Ministers a discipline in solidarity which is essential for the effective operation of cabinet and government in the Canadian tradition. I recognize that we have tried to be a somewhat unique government, but at the same time, in order to deliver an effective government, I feel that you need a strong team at the cabinet level. The current system does not allow for a cohesive team. With this comment, Mr. Chairman, this is the purpose of formulating and moving this motion. Thank you.

To the motion. Mr. Lewis.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When we worked on the special committee on the northern economy we found that one of the major weaknesses we have in developing any structure or any kind of overall direction or system is in the nature of our government, where the loyalties of individual Ministers were owed to the Members that voted them in to office as an executive of this Legislature. Therefore, they are torn both ways. They are torn to loyalty to colleagues on cabinet as well as loyalties to people on this side of the House. It makes it very difficult, from time to time, for the Leader to pull the team together and get everybody rowing in the same boat.

There are a lot of other reasons why this is necessary. It was identified in Strength at Two Levels as the basic weakness in our system of government. I fully believe that the Government Leader already has powers which she knows how to use. I think all this would do is really indicate to the rest of us that there will be loyalty; that there will be a team; and that Members will respect the fact that we really cannot have any progress unless we have a government that can really show loyalty and operate together. I am sure the Leader, if she were to get these letters, would use them with the right amount of discretion at any particular time she may have to use them. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Lewis. Mr. Nerysoo.

Mr. Chairman, I will speak after we have dealt with the motion.

Thank you. To the motion.

Question.

Motion That All Ministers Submit Undated Letters Of Resignation To Be Tabled In The House, Carried

Question is being called. All those in favour of the motion? Against? The motion is carried.

---Carried

---Applause

Thank you. Back to general comments on page 19. Mr. Todd. I am sorry, Mr. Todd, but Mr. Nerysoo will have the floor first.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Todd, for allowing me to speak. I just want to make a couple of comments with regard to some of the statements that were made by Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

I want to say that I support the position that she stated earlier about the idea of rationalizing Arctic College and its programs. I think there is a need to decide, not only the programs that you are considering offering, but the direction you want to take Arctic College and whether or not you are going to consider rationalizing the campuses or whether or not you are going to offer programs in the regions, and what those programs are going to be.

I want to say that despite the fact that I may have argued previously for more decentralized programs, I still believe that those decentralized programs have to be based on the capacity of our government to pay for those particular programs.

The other point I wanted to raise is that we have to have the capacity to deliver quality programs to our college students. If the idea of decentralizing programs causes a reduction in the quality of programs that we offer, then I do not think it is in our interest, and I do not think it is in the interest of the students.

There have been a number of concerns previously expressed, and I would ask our government, in particular the implementation review group, to consider what they intend to do with adult education. I do not think that we have been totally successful in the delivery of those adult programs, and I think that we should reassess where they should be delivered from. I know that the Arctic College, the board, and all those involved in that particular structure have had to deal with significant problems, not only in terms of the delivery mechanism, but financing of the programs as well. In that context we have to be certain that if we are going to run those programs and offer adult programs, they should be funded appropriately. I do not know if, under the present financial circumstances, we can afford to do that. The question I have is, if we do it, then how do we deliver those programs properly?

The other point I wanted to raise is with the health services and the facilities. I do think that before we embark on major restructuring or major downsizing, or consider downsizing of regional hospitals, we should determine whether it is really in the interest of the regions that downsizing occurs. In the long run, if you do not offer proper quality service in the regions, you are still going to have to pay for those services to be delivered. Whether or not you bring people to Yellowknife or whether or not you take them to southern institutions, you are still going to have to pay that cost. You could be taking away services that could be better offered at the regions. I just ask you to consider that.

Continuing Arguments For Better Medical Services

I also want you to be aware that the nursing stations, in many cases, are the first point of contact for medical services, and I still think that we should consider how we are going to offer services in those communities and whether or not there is a need to improve them. I know in some cases there have been continuous arguments for better medical services. I recall the arguments that were made by Mr. Kakfwi, for instance, concerning the need for a doctor in his particular region, and the former government responded to that because there was a need in that particular region. I would hope that if there was a requirement in other small areas or regions, that same thing would occur, obviously recognizing the cost of delivering that service. I would not want to impress upon our government that there is a need, but I do not want the rationalization or restructuring in any way to diminish those services.

On the matter of the motion that we just passed, there were a couple of points that I wanted to make, and I will make them now. I supported the motion, but I still do not think that is the only way in which the Government Leader can receive the loyalty of her colleagues in cabinet or those who are participating. We are going a long way, in many respects, to articulate and to define the powers of the Leader. I still do think that the most important authority that one receives is the mandate that they receive from the people. If you are talking about mandates, there is none other more important than the ability of people to give government, the Leader included, a mandate to implement certain policies. At the moment it is still in the hands of 24 Members, 24 people in the Northwest Territories, to determine the mandate in the direction of government. I think that we have to rethink that particular issue and we have to look seriously at how we continue to evolve so that the people themselves give to our government a certain mandate.

I just wanted you to be aware of the concern that I have, and I think the Government Leader knows now the feelings of people on this side. We may have some personal differences at times, but she knows that we understand and are concerned about how she can retain and maintain a certain amount of authority. We were all concerned about that, but I think that we cannot stop just at this motion. It has to go beyond this, and hopefully over the next four years we can discuss those kinds of options and those kinds of considerations. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Nerysoo. Would the government like to respond to that? If not, Mr. Todd.

Sometimes when I look at Arctic College I think there has been a preoccupation with the acquisition of assets, rather than looking at the quality of education which we are delivering. This group here, on this side of the table, believes that the K to 12 has to have the priority. We have to take a fundamental look at how we are educating our kids. They are simply not coming out the system, in my opinion, with a level of education that is necessary to click in to the policies that we are trying to develop with respect to northern content, whether it is a northern hire policy or a northern buy policy.

I agree with the other speakers that Arctic College is, in my opinion, somewhat out of control. It has gone from a $10 million to $12 million budget to a $30 million budget. It is trying to be all things to all people and it simply cannot. There has to be a hard look at how this operation runs. There has to be a focus. For example, in my riding -- I have spoken on this a number of times -- I think the focus should be on trades. We are in an unfortunate situation where most of our kids do not really have the quality of education, or the level of education, I should say, that allows them to move into an academic stream. Arctic College, in my opinion, has to be given a thorough review.

I agree with the report that adult education upgrading and the adult education components are absolutely essential, certainly for the Eastern Arctic in our small communities. They are seen as a method in which younger and older people can participate in the educational process. The focus, in my opinion, should be there; and I tend to doubt that it is there.

On the "NWT Way", everybody knows my opinion on that. We will not accept reducing the level of health care in the Keewatin Region. I will, if necessary, vote against it in the coming weeks if that is the way the government wishes to go. We should be taking a different approach by finding the resources to upgrade the level of health care. We are talking about your kids and my kids. We do not have the luxuries of Yellowknife's $50 million white elephant for which we would all be paying the consequences, in my opinion, if you look at the "NWT Way." I want to make it clear to my colleagues that I have no intention of supporting the "NWT Way" model for health care delivery at this time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Madam Government Leader, would you like to respond?

Mr. Chairman, what I would like to offer to the Member and Members -- and I have spoken to Mr. Koe about it -- is that I have a 20-minute presentation on the reference to the "NWT Way." I think the whole issue is in a broader concept. What is being referred to are specifics that come from the report. The report does not necessarily guide what is known as the NWT health care way. I just want to offer, at some point in time, that we could take about 20 minutes to do the background, because I think the general principles are going into specifics. I would like to offer this at some point in time. Thank you.

Mr. Arngna'naaq.

Employment Development And Income Support Co-ordination

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to make a few comments on page 18 regarding employment development and income support co-ordination as well as the Arctic College section of the report.

In the last two paragraphs of the report it states consideration should be given to the establishment of a department of education and employment. I was under the assumption that there already is a department of this nature. I want to raise the point that I do not see where or how -- when we are talking about reducing or consolidating departments -- or why there would be a need to create another department for this matter.

I also wonder why we have advanced education as well as Arctic College. In my mind, these two areas should be one and the same. The matter of Arctic College and the way they are spending their funding makes me uncertain as to what direction they are taking at this point. I am not sure of the mandate for Arctic College, nor am I sure about the mandate for advanced education.

I would like to point out, for example, the manner in which Arctic College appears to be spending their funding. This is the Keewatin teacher education program which is being held in the Keewatin right now. From what I understand, Arctic College is planning to take the students from the Keewatin for the summer and send them to Iqaluit for a period of four to six weeks. Now, that is going to cost Arctic College the number of students there are in Keewatin times the air fare to Iqaluit from each of those communities, and they will be instructed by how many instructors I am not sure, but if it is two or three, then is it not more cost efficient to bring the instructors from Iqaluit to the Keewatin communities? I am not certain, either, of how the government funds Arctic College at this point, but I think to have this type of spending by Arctic College when we are in a time of restraint is not right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Arngna'naaq. Are there comments from the government? If not, other general comments on page 19. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Motion That Arctic College Develop A Strategy To Avoid Duplication Of Services And Programs

Mr. Chairman, in respect to the comments that have been expressed on Arctic College, I would like to move that the committee recommend that Arctic College develop a strategy that would avoid duplication of services and programs. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Marie-Jewell. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Mr. Chairman, I do not feel that it is necessary to elaborate on the motion. I think there are many concerns expressed by Members that there is a duplication of services being offered at Arctic College, and in this fiscal environment that we are in, we just can no longer afford it as a Legislative Assembly, and the government should ensure that we try to get the most for our dollar. I know that the intent of the motion is to ensure that the duplication of all these courses and services be addressed, that it is too costly, and that this cannot be afforded any longer and a strategy has to be developed to address the Arctic College programs that are being delivered. Thank you.

To the motion. Mr. Kakfwi.

Point of order, Mr. Chairman.