Does this committee agree that

that concludes DPW? I

Agreed.

--- Agreed

I would like to thank the Minister and your witnesses.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Members. Thank you, Bob.

What is the wish of the committee? Bill 14, Safety and Public Services. Mr. Todd.

Mr. Chairman, let us proceed with Safety and Public Services.

Does the committee agree?

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Mr. Patterson.

Department Of Safety And Public

Services

Minister's Opening

Remarks

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The 1992-93 capital budget for the Department of Safety and Public Services is $50,000, a reduction of $60,000 from the previous year. The amount in the 1992-93 capital main estimates is a relatively small amount in relation to the overall capital plan.

An amount of $30,000 is needed by the department to meet the requirements of section 35(3) of the Mining Safety Act which states that the department shall maintain mine rescue equipment in good and serviceable condition. This amount expended in compliance with this section is fully recoverable from the active mines and is therefore recorded in vote seven as revenue. The remaining $20,000 will be used by the department to acquire environmental testing equipment to monitor underground working conditions. Thank you.

Thank you. Chairman of finance committee, Mr. Todd.

Comments From The Standing Committee On Finance

The committee certainly does not question the need for reasonable fire safety measures, but many of these buildings have been in satisfactory condition for lengths of time without any hazard. The question we were asking ourselves is: Who is watching the watchdog to ensure that reasonable standards are being enforced? To our knowledge, at least to my knowledge as chairman of the standing committee on finance, there seems to be no appeal mechanism.

Motion That Cabinet Re-Examine Safety Acts And Ensure Safety Standards, Carried

So therefore the committee, if it may, would like to move, I would like to move that the committee recommends to the cabinet that they re-examine the relative safety acts, and a process be put in place to ensure reasonable safety standards, that reasonable safety standards are followed, the Office of the Fire Marshal is monitored, and an expeditious appeal mechanism is put into place.

Thank you, Mr. Todd. Can I have your motion distributed? Will the Pages distribute the motion? Thank you. Mr. Todd, your motion is in order. To the motion, Mr. Todd.

Nobody is suggesting for one minute that there is no requirement for reasonable safety standards. None, whatsoever. But I think, to a person, on the committee, everybody felt that, particularly in relation to the Fire Marshal, they seemed, if you will excuse the expression, almost out of control. They were buzzing around the communities, telling people they have to meet these new standards, et cetera. We have 30 years of buildings in the Northwest Territories. We cannot solve all the upgrading problems in 30 days. We particularly cannot solve them in these difficult financial times. So there is a concern that perhaps there was a lack of appreciation for the total environment that we live in. You put a uniform on these guys and they get carried away, if I can be a little flippant. I believe we refer to them in the Keewatin as 'Inspector Gadget." However, at the risk of being somewhat flippant, this is a serious issue, but the fact of the matter is that I do not think there was one single person on the standing committee on finance who had not had some difficulties, that in some of the things that were, perhaps, being asked, the total environment and the conditions we all operate under were not taken into consideration, I guess. Clearly there is a need. There is nobody suggesting for one minute that we want anything to happen to anybody and we do not want standards, but it is the way in which we approach the changes that are necessary. It was the general feeling among Members on the standing committee on finance that, rather than working in harmony with government or with the private sector, it was more an antagonistic, confrontational situation that was taking place, and that there should be a recognition that Rome was not built in a day, and neither was the Northwest Territories, and we are not going to change some of these buildings overnight. It was having a serious impact on the capital budget, because a number of Ministers that came forward used the Fire Marshal as the bogey man, as the cabinet sometimes does when we talk about the Auditor General. "The Fire Marshal says we have to do this; therefore, we have got to expend it."

There is a perception, whether it is real or not I do not know, that there is a limited appeal mechanism in place, if the Fire Marshal or the fire chief comes into the community or into your building and says, "This has to happen,' or "That has to happen." So that was another concern, and that was the reason for this motion. Probably I will have the Fire Marshal at my door tomorrow. But anyway, the fact of the matter is that, clearly, on a number of occasions, the capital budget was being driven by the Fire Marshal's request to upgrade, meet certain standards, et cetera. The financial resources are simply not available to do some of them. Hence the reason for the motion.

Thank you. To the motion.

Question.

Question is being called. All those in favour? Opposed, if any? The motion is carried.

--- Carried

General comments. Does the committee agree to go page by page?

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Mine Safety

Equipment Acquisition, Headquarters, Total Capital, Agreed

Page 8-10, detail of capital, mine safety, equipment acquisition, total region, $50,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Equipment Acquisition, Total Capital, Agreed

Total acquisition of equipment, $50,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Mine Safety, Total Capital, Agreed

Total activity, $50,000. Agreed?

Agreed.

--- Agreed

Department Of Safety And Public Services, Total Capital, Agreed

Then we go back to the program summary, Department of Safety and Public Services, capital expenditures, total capital expenditures,, $50,000. Agreed?