Good afternoon. Orders of the day for Tuesday, March 3, 1992. Item 2, Ministers' statements. Mr. Whitford.

Thank you, Mr. Whitford. Members will join me in welcoming Mr. Louis Pilakapsi, the president of the Keewatin Inuit Association.

---Applause

Ministers' statements. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce appointments to fill two vacancies that presently exist on the Workers' Compensation Board. Mr. Robert Kuptana and Mr. Gordon Wray will assume their positions on the board effective immediately.

Mr. Kuptana, a resident of Sachs Harbour, previously served on the board for several years. At present, he is working as a translator for the Tungavik Federation of Nunavut.

Mr. Wray, a resident of Baker Lake and Yellowknife, is well known in both the business and political sectors of the Northwest Territories. Prior to serving as a Member of this Assembly, he was an active businessman in the Keewatin Region.

Mr. Speaker, I am confident that both of these individuals will prove to be valuable contributors to the operation of the Workers' Compensation Board and I look forward to working with them. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Ministers' statements. Ministers' statements. Item 3, Members' statements.

Mr. Speaker, I rise, today, to express my disappointment in the conduct of the Minister of Workers' Compensation Board, who just announced his appointments for the Workers' Compensation Board.

First of all, Mr. Speaker, I want to make it abundantly clear that I am not against the individuals chosen, as I feel that Mr. Wray does have the ability to do the job. However, I do want to indicate the process used for these appointments is not one to be proud of. Mr. Patterson has consulted with only a few Members of this Assembly in determining who should be considered for these appointments. In consultation with many of the Members, it appears that Mr. Patterson has only consulted with the eastern Members of the Assembly, and this convinces me, in regard to the concern that I expressed in this House before, about Mr. Patterson's eastern mentality as a Minister.

Secondly, Mr. Speaker, it is the issue of the motion placed forth in this Assembly that has been totally ignored. On December 12, 1991 this Assembly moved, and I quote: "that the government of the NWT postpone filling membership vacancies in all government-created boards and agencies until after March 31, 1992." Today is only March 3; "and further, that where it is clearly in the public interest to reappoint members of boards and agencies, that these appointments be made for the shortest possible term." Mr. Speaker, the Government Leader's response at the time was, and I quote: "Mr. Chairman, I would like to compliment the committee on its work and its diligent look at the concerns on the many boards and agencies that we have in the NWT. The government has no problem with the recommendations. It compliments the kind of thinking that we have had on some of the requests that have been raised by the general voter of the NWT. "So once again I would like to compliment the committee on their work and suggest that the recommendation be supported." End of quote by the Government Leader.

These appointments certainly are contradictory to the Government Leader's comments in December, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to tell Mr. Patterson that as a Member of this Assembly I am not the least bit impressed with the process you used and with the total ignorance in violating and ignoring this House's recommendations. Thank you.

Members' statements. Mr. Lewis.

Mr. Speaker, I had no difficulty at all in the 11th Assembly in finding many questions to ask in question period in the interests of making this government accountable. The government came into power in the fall of 1987 and we had our main estimates to deal with right away. Within a few weeks the standing committee on finance could get on with its work. It had been prepared by the previous government, but the 11th Assembly dealt with the estimates and the budget was ready very soon past. Mr. Speaker, our government has been in office since November and we are still waiting for the main estimates, and we will not pass our budget until June or July. Until the Minister of Finance makes his budget speech, we will continue to deal with what I consider to be a phantom government. We know nothing about its plans, its policies, or its programs.

In this environment, Mr. Speaker, in my own defence, it is very difficult to know what questions to ask, because we do not know what we are doing. I feel like I am flying through very thick clouds. Mr. Speaker, we have an obligation to make sure that the 13th Assembly, which will meet about four or five years from now, does not have to go through this process. We talk about accountability all the time, Mr. Speaker. To make governments accountable, we have to know what it is trying to do. It is unacceptable that a government be in power for nine months before it shows its face. Thank you.

Members' statements. Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Mr. Speaker, I would like to welcome the chairman of the Baffin Divisional Board of Education. He could not leave yesterday, and I would like to recognize the hard work that he has done, and I would like to welcome him, Joe Enook.

---Applause

Members' statements. Item 4, returns to oral questions. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is a return to a question asked by Mr. Gargan on February 25, 1992, on the effect of Crown office staff turnover on the appeal of the Paul Quassa case. Mr. Gargan asked whether he could be assured that staff turnover within the office of the Crown will not influence the decision on whether or not there will be an appeal of the Quassa matter.

I am advised that a decision has been made not to appeal the sentence in the Paul Quassa case. I have also been advised that the turnover of personnel within the Crown office has nothing to do with this decision.

In the Northwest Territories, the Attorney General of Canada, and only the Attorney General of Canada, has a role in deciding which cases the Crown will appeal. She is accountable to Parliament alone. Our government has no role in criminal prosecution decisions. Thank you.

Returns to oral questions. Item 5, oral questions.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Social Services whether or not he is prepared to provide us with the details and the specifics of the items being considered for negotiation with the federal government that he indicated or announced today.

Minister of Social Services, Mr. Whitford.

Please clarify, Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The honourable Member indicated today that the Department of Social Services is involved in embarking upon a partnership with the Department of Education in negotiating a five-year agreement with Employment and Immigration Canada and Health and Welfare Canada to enhance employment opportunities.

I want to ask the honourable Member if he could provide this House with at least some general parameters of those negotiations and the types of programs to be included in that particular agreement.

Mr. Whitford.

The question has been taken as notice. Oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister responsible for the Workers' Compensation Board. Can the Minister advise this House as to the length of the appointments of both Mr. Kuptana and Mr. Wray?

Mr. Patterson.

One year, Mr. Speaker.

Oral questions. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Justice with regard to the whole issue on whether or not inmates have a right to vote. I would like to ask the Minister whether or not there has been a review done with regard to this. Has there been a review on whether or not our Northwest Territories Act is okay as far as the Constitution goes?

Minister of Justice, Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the federal Court of Appeal, in the case of Belczowski versus Canada, did hold that the provisions of the Canada Elections Act disqualifying prison inmates from voting in federal elections were contrary to the Charter. However, Mr. Speaker, it is not known, yet, whether this case will be appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada. It is likely that the results of that case would apply to voting provisions in the territorial Elections Act, but I am advised that it would be preferable to wait for the outcome of an appeal, if any, before amendments to that act are made or contemplated. Thank you.

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Gargan. Oral questions. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, under the Legal Services Act, again to the Minister of Justice, one of the provisions under section 4, clause 35, states, "Subject to this act and the regulations, legal services may be provided in relation to all civil matters except..." One of these sections deals with proceedings relating to elections. I would like to ask the Minister if he has reviewed that section and if there are any avenues the inmates might be able to take in order to challenge, the Elections Act, if the need arises.

Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as the honourable Member may know, there is a concern about the spiralling costs of legal aid, courts, court services and policing in the Northwest Territories. Because of that concern, the previous Minister of Justice had approved the appointment of a task force on legal aid to review the whole system, particularly with a view to dealing with the increases in costs. I have tabled that report and, to my recollection, it does not address that particular issue. In fact, the report is generally directed at limiting services and costs, rather than expanding them.

Mr. Speaker, to answer the Member's question, I have not considered expanding the scope of legal aid. In fact, I believe that I may be required, by financial restraint, to consider doing the opposite: limiting or controlling the scope of legal aid. Thank you.

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

I would like to ask if there are any avenues that inmates have if they feel that their constitutional right to vote is being violated. What are the options that the inmates have in that case?

Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that rather than spending a lot of time and money on litigation, I would suggest that the solution to that problem lies with this Legislature and, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that it is a decision that can be addressed by this Legislature without the need for litigation. We as a Legislature can determine whether inmates should have the right to vote or not. It does not take a court challenge to decide. The honourable Member well knows the tools that are available to any Member of this Legislative Assembly to bring this issue before the House and to the attention of the government. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Speaker, if the Member recalls, I made a motion with regard to changing the Elections Act, the Plebiscite Act and the Local Authorities Elections Act which none of the Members supported. This motion would have enabled inmates to vote. The opportunity for change was there, but it never occurred. I would like to ask the Minister whether or not, in the event the possibility exists, it could be challenged. This could disrupt the plebiscite. Perhaps the government should be changing the acts so that inmates may have an opportunity to vote.

A question should not normally deal with a hypothetical case. I think the Minister understands the intent of the question. Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Speaker, with the greatest of respect to the honourable Member, I would suggest that the federal case dealt with federal elections, and while it may well apply to territorial elections, I think there is quite a distinction to be made with regard to a plebiscite. I think the previous litigation on the plebiscite described the plebiscite as an opinion poll. It has a different status than that of an election in the sense of a municipal or a territorial election.

Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that it is up to this Legislature to determine which classes of people it wishes to consult on, in effect, an opinion poll through the plebiscite. I think the Member's concern about the applicability of this case is valid and quite possibly justified with regard to elections legislation. I respectfully suggest that there is a whole different set of arguments that apply to plebiscite legislation. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Speaker, in the event that the response

would be what the Minister said, I would like to get a legal opinion on that. The Plebiscite Act does contain a clause restricting prisoners from voting. Under the act itself, that could be challenged if there was a plebiscite and the inmates decide to do that. What I am getting at, Mr. Speaker, is whether or not any Minister has taken any initiatives. Does the Minister agree that there might be a disruption in the plebiscite process if it was challenged? What is he doing about it?

Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Speaker, the case is under Plebiscite Act, and I guess the case of Allman et al versus the Commissioner of the Northwest Territories in the Court of Appeal of the Northwest Territories, 1984, basically described the plebiscite as an opinion poll, as I said earlier, Mr. Speaker. I believe the Charter right to vote has been considered, so far, in courts to apply to elections rather than opinion polls. So, Mr. Speaker, to answer the Member's question, I am not concerned about the possibility of a challenge, or even a violation of Charter rights, by the exclusion of certain classes of people like prisoners with respect to the Plebiscite Act. I think the Member has a very good case to make, that the Charter, right to vote may well apply to our elections legislation in the Territories, but I am advised that it is quite a different matter with regard to the Plebiscite Act.

So the short answer to the question, Mr. Speaker, is that I am not concerned about the validity of the Plebiscite Act as against the Charter, and I am not concerned about the possibility of a challenge. Thank you.

Oral questions. You have used up your three supplementaries, Mr. Gargan. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if I could ask the Minister of Justice whether or not he has had a legal opinion done with regard to the matter of the residency requirement that is defined under the Plebiscite Act.

Mr. Patterson.

Mr. Speaker, the honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta pointed out the other day that the equality provisions of the Charter were not in effect when the residency requirement was litigated in the case of Allman versus the Commissioner of the Northwest Territories in 1984. I have sought advice from my department about the point the Member raised; namely, could the equality provisions provide a basis for challenge of the residency requirement that was not available in 1984. Mr. Speaker, I am advised that it is never possible to predict for certain what courts will do, but I am advised that the right to vote is the best ground to challenge the residency requirement in the Plebiscite Act, that it is not so much an equality argument as an argument founded in the right-to-vote provisions of the Charter. I am advised by my department that therefore the challenge was thoroughly dealt with by the court of appeal in 1984, and it was on the best ground that could be available to a challenger today, and that therefore that case probably accurately sets out the law today as well as it did in 1984.

Oral questions. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question again to the Minister of Justice with regard to the Plebiscite Act and the opinion poll, in regard to whether it is the Plebiscite Act, or the Municipal Act, or the Elections Act. In the event that an inmate decides to challenge the Plebiscite Act because of not being allowed to vote, what would happen in this case? Would it, in fact, cause a disruption to the process with regard to the boundary plebiscite?

I have a little difficulty with the question because it is bordering on asking Mr. Patterson a legal opinion, but with that in mind, Mr. Patterson, if you want to respond to the general tenor of the question.

I was hoping you were going to let me off the hook, Mr. Speaker. I thought that was quite a hypothetical question: What if an inmate decides to challenge? Mr. Speaker, I have tried to be as clear as I can with the honourable Member. The right to vote, as it has been determined recently by the federal Court of Canada, relates to elections for public office. The Plebiscite Act is quite a different matter. It is like an opinion poll, and that is the language used by a court.

So, in the opinion of my legal advisors in the Department of Justice, Mr. Speaker, an inmate could not use the recent federal court case to challenge the Plebiscite Act. It is clearly a different situation. The federal court of appeal case clearly deals with elections and not opinion polls. So if the Member is asking my opinion of what would happen, my opinion is that the challenge would not get very far and it would not disrupt the plebiscite. I think the Member has a good case with regard to elections, which should be looked at and dealt with by this House, but I do not think it affects the plebiscite or applies to the plebiscite. Thank you.

If I could remind Members that they should not be asking opinions but also remind Ministers that they are under no obligation to respond to a question of opinion. So it is a two-way street. Oral questions. Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Culture and Communications. It is with regard to my church in Fort Providence. During the fall session I addressed that issue, and also during the last budget session I also addressed it. One of the things I tried to do during the last budget session was to delete certain expenditures for the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre and redirect it to the church in Fort Providence.

The arguments that were used by the department at that time were that they were doing some renovations with regard to some trailers they have used for storage and they are going to replace those trailers with the proper structure for storage of artifacts. I would like to ask if those renovations, to date, on the Prince of Wales museum have been done. I understand it has not been.

Minister of Culture and Communications, Mr. Allooloo.

Mr. Speaker, the Member is correct; the renovations on the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre have not been done.

Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

In light of that, Mr. Speaker, are there any plans during this fiscal year to assist the community of Fort Providence to stabilize their church? I am concerned that if it goes on any longer there will not be a church there.

Mr. Gargan, this might be looked at as a new question. It is a change of subject from the Prince of Wales to the church. So we will class this as a new question. Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member knows that the department has been looking very hard to see where we can help Fort Providence. We have been dealing with the issue for quite some time. At some point in working on this we had a tentative plan to assist the community to stabilize the church. Also, in the past, I have attempted to find resources that would stabilize the church and to renovate it. I have not been able to get the adequate resources to renovate the old church. I am told by my department, the government, and this Legislature, that since we are in a fiscal restraint and the resources are limited we should be looking for resources outside of the Government of the Northwest Territories. I have directed my department to see if they can find resources with federal programs that might be available to assist the Fort Providence church. To this date, my department has no immediate plans to put forward a submission that would renovate the church. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Speaker, I realize that there is the need for restraint. Last year, Mr. Speaker, there was approval for $180,000 for the Fort Good Hope church, and I think this year it is over $200,000. Under what process has the government made the allocation for Fort Good Hope a priority over other communities?

Mr. Allooloo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I know that the Fort Good Hope church has been recognized nationally as a building that is significant to the heritage of Canada. As to the Member's question, I will have to take the question as notice and get back to him with the detailed information as to why this government is spending money on that church. Thank you.

The question has been taken as notice. Oral questions. Mr. Nerysoo.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If I could ask the Minister of Culture and Communications if he would provide Members of this House with the various policies, or outlines of policies, that are in existence where individuals or communities can access funds for the development or preservation of historic sites and buildings.

Minister of Culture and Communications, Mr. Allooloo.

Mr. Speaker, yes, I will be happy to provide the Members with that policy. Thank you.

Oral questions. Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister for Economic Development and Tourism. I asked this question earlier, but I will ask it again. I realize that we, in the North, are in a time of restraint. My question is with regard to parks in Cape Dorset. We have asked this for a number of years; it was asked by the previous MLA. I also ask you, Mr. Minister, this question: I am just wondering if the park is going to be ready 10 months from now. It was supposed to be worked on for at least 10 months, and I hope by that time, in June, it will be ready.

We have some students from Cape Dorset, and I would like to see them graduate. I believe those few students from Cape Dorset will be graduating sometime in the month of June. I wonder if you have any responses for my questions. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Speaker, we will start work on it immediately. Thank you.

Oral questions. Mrs. Marie-Jewell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Education, since the Minister's department made a decision to defer the academic building once again in Fort Smith, and since the recommendation of SCOF has been to develop a strategy for Arctic College, I would like to ask the Minister, how long does he feel it would take to complete the strategy for Arctic College to address the issue of campuses?

Minister of Education, Mr. Allooloo.

Mr. Speaker, a lot of it will depend on the Strength at Two Levels committee. Their recommendations as to what happens to Arctic College are going to be very important for the department to come up with a plan. Thank you.

Mrs. Marie-Jewell, supplementary.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I recognize

that now the Minister is allowing for consideration by the ordinary Members through the Strength at Two Levels committee, but at the same time I would like to ask the Minister, does he intend to also consult with the Arctic College Board of Governors and take into consideration the comment made in this House with respect to the number of campuses for the development of the Arctic College strategy?

Mr. Allooloo.

Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Oral questions. Mr. Pudlat.

(Translation) Mr. Speaker, I did not hear the response from the Minister of Economic Development regarding the parks. Perhaps I would ask him to repeat his response. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Perhaps, Mr. Pollard, if you could repeat your response for Mr. Pudlat.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I would be glad to. Mr. Speaker, I believe the Member was questioning me about the Katannilik Park on the Soper River. Those funds are in the budget this year, and they are before the House at this present time. If the funds requested are approved by the House, then we will start work on the park immediately. Thank you.

Oral questions. Oral questions. Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Social Services with regard to referrals. The situation right now on referrals is that all residents that are being referred under the alcohol and drug program are being referred through rehab centres here in the Northwest Territories. I would like to ask the Minister whether or not these referrals, because of restraint, are restricted to not only the alcohol and drug program but are restricted to government employees as well.

Minister of Social Services, Mr. Whitford.

Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So whether they are government employees or non-government employees, the same rule applies, that if they require treatment they are to go into an institution in the North.

Mr. Whitford.

Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Speaker, we had an opportunity to meet with the Minister in Fort Simpson during the first week of February. The Minister indicated that referrals for alcohol and drug abuse patients would be made up here but if there is a requirement for a cultural component then they may be referred down south -- I am not too sure whether you said that or not, but I would like to know if people who require treatment are given the opportunity if they request a cultural component, if the government would be open to that?

Mr. Whitford.

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Gargan.

Mr. Chairman, has the department done a review with regard to the amount of savings we are making by not referring people with alcohol problems to the South? I understand it is cheaper on the best base to send them south, and the transportation is equivalent to this.

Mr. Whitford.

You have completed your three supplementary questions, Mr. Gargan. Oral questions. Mr. Antoine.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism. I heard that the NWT Development Corporation, which gets its funding from this Legislature, recently purchased the Patterson Sawmill out of Hay River for $1.6 million. I have been thinking about this quite a bit, and I have a few concerns about it. A lot of sawmills in the North never did make it. An example of this is Fort Resolution. The government pumped millions of dollars into it over the years. The sawmill was never successful. I wonder why the NWT Development Corporation bought this sawmill. Mahsi.

Minister of Economic Development and Tourism, Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it was not a government decision, although it is my responsibility, and I take full responsibility for it. It was a decision of the board of the NWT Development Corporation. They decided that it was the last sawmill left in the Northwest Territories. It had been viable in the past and had been in existence for 18 years. Mr. Patterson had fallen victim to the price of lumber falling from $330 per thousand down to $225 per thousand board feet, the same as the rest of the lumber industry in Canada. He was unable to come to terms with Renewable Resources, at times, on his logging area which he was occupying in the Cameron Hills. He moved further toward Fort Simpson and Jean Marie River which proved very, very expensive for him to haul logs in from there. Mr. Patterson wanted to return to Cameron Hills, but he was facing bankruptcy. There were some 40 jobs throughout the year at stake. There were several hundred thousand dollars worth of purchases made in the Northwest Territories by this company. The board of directors of the NWT Development Corporation assessed it and felt that if they could bring him out of this slump, because he was debt-ridden, the possibility existed that this business could be returned to the private sector and continue to make a profit.

That is the story, Mr. Speaker. As I said, I take full responsibility for this decision. Thank you.

Supplementary, Mr. Antoine.

The cost of $1.6 million is quite a bit of money for a sawmill. I would like to know what is included in the package as far as assets, et cetera. Mahsi.

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Speaker, the NWT Development Corporation spent public funds. I have to account to the House for that and, unfortunately, I am going to involve the private lives of the Pattersons. I think there is a misconception that Mr. and Mrs. Patterson walked away with their pockets jingling. What happened, Mr. Speaker, is that $500,000 of the money was owed to ourselves through the business loan fund; $600,000 of those dollars went into the working capital to enable them to put an inventory together; $300,000 went to the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce to pay the loan, and Mr. and Mrs. Patterson each received two dollars, Mr. Speaker. They gave up the loans and personal guarantees that they had put into their company. That is how the $1.4 million was disbursed, Mr. Speaker.

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now that we indirectly own the sawmill, what are we going to do with it? Thank you.

Mr. Pollard.

Mr. Speaker, the first thing we had to do was to decide whether we were in the business of sawing and planing lumber and selling it to lumber yards, or whether we were in the business of bidding on government contracts. We decided that we were going to cut the lumber, saw it and plane it, and we are presently making arrangements with the lumber yards in the Northwest Territories for them to carry our product. We are not going to compete with the private sector in that regard.

The purpose of the sawmill, obviously, will ultimately be to make money. The more volume we can put through, the better. This year, we are aiming at five million board feet. Our department is now entering into discussions with Fort Resolution to make an arrangement with them whereby they will cut one million board feet per year, rough cut it and supply it to the Patterson's sawmill in Hay River for planing. That will bring us to six million board feet. I think we can get to eight million board feet and sell into the Northwest Territories. Our intention is to supply the Northwest Territories. If we can run some into Alberta, we will do that as well, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Oral questions. Supplementary, Mr. Antoine.

Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Who is presently managing this operation? Who is running Patterson Mills at this time?

Mr. Pollard.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Patterson has a contract with us. He also has an option to buy back part of the sawmill if he is able to. We have given him certain managerial responsibilities, but at the same time

the Development Corporation will be overseeing the whole operation. We will see how that works out, Mr. Speaker, and make some decisions along the road if it is not working out.

Oral questions. Mr. Koe.