Mr. Patterson.

Growth Of NWT Police Costs Effectively Held Down

Mr. Chairman, in doing an analysis of the expenses in all areas of the justice system for the period since 1984, which I have just asked my department to do, I have noted that the corrections budget, because of volume and case increases, has grown by 163 per cent; the legal aid budget has grown by 140 per cent; court services budget has grown by almost 200 per cent; offenses cleared by charge have grown by 42 per cent, and yet the police budget, since 1984-85, has grown only 30 per cent.

As I say, I am open to advice, but all the policemen I talk to, including those in my own constituency, say that they are really starting to hurt and that they are short of the necessary funds to do a difficult job properly.

Mr. Gargan.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With regard to the response by the Minister about the growth being only 30 per cent. The cases of crimes have not kept up with the percentage rate to the RCMP. Is there an increase in crime rates that has caused the RCMP to be overworked?

Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that this supplementary estimate request can be certainly tied to the growth of charges and cases over the last number of years. For example, in the period 1990-91 the growth of offenses cleared by charge over the previous years was 21 per cent. So there were some 7527 cases cleared by charge in 1989-90, and that number was over 9000 in 1990-91. So yes, the volume of cases, charges and trials has risen; and that is why I am here before you today requesting supplementary estimates for policing and, as well, for legal aid, which is the next item on this list. Both of these are driven by the number of charges and the number of trials.

Mr. Gargan.

Could the other contributing factor be the lack of response from the police force? I know a lot of communities who do phone their local detachment get referred to Yellowknife. So you have a situation where the immediate problem is not addressed until after the fact.

Mr. Minister.

I would acknowledge that is a problem as well. I would agree.

Mr. Antoine.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am here to give approval to this Police Services Agreement, but I would like to find out about this situation. The total appropriation would be $23,980,000 for 1991-92. Is this 70 per cent of the total Police Services Agreement?

Mr. Patterson.

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Antoine.

Is that correct, that we are paying $23,987,000 for police services, and we are not the employer of the RCMP?

Mr. Patterson.

Yes, that is correct, Mr. Chairman. As I understand it, the RCMP in essence is similar to a military organization. There is a chain of command, and there is an independence that would work against a Minister of this government, at any rate, providing day to day direction to the RCMP. But we do have some considerable influence; we set overall goals and priorities, and through my departmental officials and occasional meetings I have with the chief superintendent, we do have a good working relationship. But they do operate in a quasi independent way as a military organization, the same as we might do in an emergency if we called in the army to deal with a situation. They would not take kindly to being told how to do their job. They do it as a military organization with their own reporting relationships within the force.

Mr. Antoine.

Thank you for that information. I am concerned now because you said they are independent from this government, even though we pay them a lot of money to operate. They are supposed to be providing services to everybody in the communities, hopefully to the poorest,

unfortunate people in the communities, some of whom may have social problems. I represent, them too, and I hear complaints. We have heard complaints raised in this house regarding the level of service that the RCMP are providing with regard to responding after hours to emergency situations. If they are operating independently, how can people in leadership positions that represent people raise the issues that are coming from the people for which RCMP are supposed to be providing services? Thank you.

Handling Of Policing Complaints

Thank you. Mr. Patterson.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think I said they were quasi independent. I do not mean they are completely at arm's length, but the relationship of our government is not the same as the relationship we have with employees within one of our departments.

We are not the employer, so we cannot give directions the same as if these people were employees of another government department. Thank you.

Removal Of RCMP From Communities

Thank you. Mr. Antoine.